RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted December 11, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2013 Hi Chaz On another thread on here, someone else had the same problem with a DCC layout, by not stopping the train using the controller, but cutting the power, the loco remembered and set off luckily the operator also averted disaster. One of the plus points for good old fashioned DC once the juice is cut by whatever means there's no memory to start it off again. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 Hi Chaz On another thread on here, someone else had the same problem with a DCC layout, by not stopping the train using the controller, but cutting the power, the loco remembered and set off luckily the operator also averted disaster. One of the plus points for good old fashioned DC once the juice is cut by whatever means there's no memory to start it off again. SS The problem was caused by an operator error combined with a DCC characteristic. On my home layout we used to see another combination produce a similar odd happening. An operator might try to drive a loco but not realise that his handset was set for a different loco. When "his" loco didn't move he would realise his mistake and switch to the correct loco. The "wrong" loco would sit on its cassette, innocently biding its time. When the cassette was connected.... I would rather fit the stop than hope that the error is not repeated. ("If something can go wrong, sooner or later it will.") However DC users need not be too smug, a similar event might result if a DC controller were left "full on" when a cassette was connected. However I don't want to start a DC/DCC war! The point is if you are using cassettes then you need to design out as many pitfalls as possible, regardless of the control system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Why not deselect the function in the decoder that remembers speed, direction etc when power is switched off. Far more configurations in DCC than DC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 Why not deselect the function in the decoder that remembers speed, direction etc when power is switched off. Far more configurations in DCC than DC. Good idea. But I would still think it worth making the cassette system as fool-proof as possible. ("If something can go wrong, sooner or later it will.") Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Absolutely. Belts and braces. If it can go wrong it will and all those sayings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnaby Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Chaz I too will have a small overhang for my cassettes and I had thought that the cassettes stiffness and a contained end stop would suffice. As you have a stop cross-member at the track end I'm not sure what was being pushed? I'll be DCC too. Expert extension by the way. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 (edited) Chaz I too will have a small overhang for my cassettes and I had thought that the cassettes stiffness and a contained end stop would suffice. As you have a stop cross-member at the track end I'm not sure what was being pushed? I'll be DCC too. Expert extension by the way. Regards Those Heljan diesels are heavy and powerful. Behind it were two cassettes both full of wagons. It ran into the wagons and then proceeded to push the cassettes and the wagons towards the layout end, the whole lot sliding along the baseboard top. It would have stopped as the trailing bogie left "dry land" but by then the further cassette might well have overbalanced and dropped with its contents of four wagons to the floor. As you might imagine I am not keen to see a re-enactment. Chaz Edited December 11, 2013 by chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 When we were at the Warley show two of my locos decided to be prima donnas. The Peckett was one and that is now on my bench awaiting a strip-down, new plunger pickups and springs if they prove to be tired and a keep-alive capacitor. The other loco that would not play was my BR/Sulzer type 2 (class 24 to you youngsters). This was disabled by excessive slipping. It had always been prone to this but I had never seen it quite so bad - something in the air at the NEC?. Now, I recently dismantled my home 7mm layout to make way for the next project, an On30 US NG railroad. (details later). The 7mm railway had "gone cold" and compared rather unfavourably with Dock Green. I couldn't see that I would ever finish it and fancied a complete change. OK but this leaves me with nowhere to test locos, so I set up a test rig for the Sulzer. Length of track on a strip of plywood - saved from the dismantled railway - placed on the kitchen table DC PSU to power the diesel two brackets screwed to the plywood - supporting a plastic pulley string tied to a paperclip which is slipped over the coupling hook on the loco the string is led over the pulley and tied to a plastic milk bottle water is added to the milk bottle until the loco slipped when starting washing up bowl positioned under the milk bottle to avoid any mess electronic "scales" used to weigh the milk bottle and its contents I found that the diesel, which was very light, slipped on starting with 52gm - when the weight was increased to 61gm the model did not move at all, just slipping on the spot. 52gm is not very much at all. Of course this test proves very little on its own but I have since glued a quarter of a kilogram of lead into the bodyshell. Once I have fitted a keep-alive capacitor to the Loksound V3.5 XL decoder* I will reassemble the model and test it again. Although I don't expect it will be as powerful as a Heljan diesel as it only has one motor bogie I do expect it to manage anything it is likely to face on Dock Green without slipping. it certainly feels much more substantial when handled. * I have posted a request for info' on this in the DCC section of RMweb and on the ESU forum as I can't find any mention in the manual I downloaded from the ESU website. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnaby Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Crikey Chaz I didn't think the locos had that much punch. Similar extension stop needed for me then. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottY80 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 (edited) I ran out of ply when making my cassettes so I have temporary ends made of foam board in shallow slots..... Like yourself I have a Heljan 20 so I better get to the local store and buy some ply before I put a dent in the floor! Edited December 11, 2013 by ScottY80 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daifly Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 * I have posted a request for info' on this in the DCC section of RMweb and on the ESU forum as I can't find any mention in the manual I downloaded from the ESU website. Chaz Don't hold your breath for a solution. A thread on the Yahoo 7mm Forum back in August discussed this very topic and several electronic wizards were unable to come up with a solution other than switching to a different decoder! Sorry. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 Don't hold your breath for a solution. A thread on the Yahoo 7mm Forum back in August discussed this very topic and several electronic wizards were unable to come up with a solution other than switching to a different decoder! Sorry. Dave Thanks for that information. I thought I had read some time ago that it was possible using a couple of the screw terminals on the board but I must be mistaken. As the loco in question is a Bo-Bo with pickups on all eight wheels the need is not so great as it is with my 0-4-0ST. Changing the decoder is an option, and I will do it if keep-alive proves to be necessary. I want stalls to be a thing of the past on Dock Green - I understand that the V4 XL includes keep-alive capacitors on the board. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 Crikey Chaz I didn't think the locos had that much punch. Similar extension stop needed for me then. Thanks Whether you consider it necessary will depend on the design of your cassettes as much as anything else. But, yes, the Heljan diesels are very powerful. The Bo-Bo locos have two chunky motors, drive to all the wheels, and they are very heavy. Of course you could argue that nobody would be stupid enough to set one going so that it might run itself or a rake of wagons over the edge of a layout.....but I did! I didn't actually witness the near disaster as I had walked away having done my operating stint - was my face red when I was told.... Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daifly Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Thanks for that information. I thought I had read some time ago that it was possible using a couple of the screw terminals on the board but I must be mistaken. As the loco in question is a Bo-Bo with pickups on all eight wheels the need is not so great as it is with my 0-4-0ST. Changing the decoder is an option, and I will do it if keep-alive proves to be necessary. I want stalls to be a thing of the past on Dock Green - I understand that the V4 XL includes keep-alive capacitors on the board. Chaz Steph Dale (one of the aforementioned wizards) said:"There is no facility for keep alive on ESU Loksound v3.5. I've had a good look for it (as have others) in the hardware; I suspect the power distribution is done on one of the centre layers of the circuit board, so it can't be got at. There is also no mention of keep alive being available when referring to the manual for the v3.5 decoder family." Apparently, there is an expensive power module available for the Loksound v4.0XL Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 The stay alive power pack for the V4 XL Loksound is free. It comes ready mounted on each decoder. It works well, really well. All my loco & DMU fleet have V4 and V4 XL stay alive and no stutter at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 The stay alive power pack for the V4 XL Loksound is free. It comes ready mounted on each decoder. It works well, really well. All my loco & DMU fleet have V4 and V4 XL stay alive and no stutter at all. One day in the future someone in our technologically backward hobby will devise a truly compact, reliable and enduring remotely controlled on-board power source that frees us all from the frustration of hesitant and intermittent rail-supplied electricity. Then we will be able to model realistically the disreputable track found on many industrial stes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I have that on my layout. The power is in the track, the trains are on the track, no interruptions. DCC, stay alive and Railcom. Simple Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 Steph Dale (one of the aforementioned wizards) said: "There is no facility for keep alive on ESU Loksound v3.5. I've had a good look for it (as have others) in the hardware; I suspect the power distribution is done on one of the centre layers of the circuit board, so it can't be got at. There is also no mention of keep alive being available when referring to the manual for the v3.5 decoder family." Apparently, there is an expensive power module available for the Loksound v4.0XL Cheers Dave Thanks for passing on that information Dave. I should just say that I think the above only applies to the V3.5 XL, the smaller 1 amp V3.5 does allow for connections to a keep alive capacitor, and this has been documented and illustrated elsewhere on forum. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daifly Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Thanks for passing on that information Dave. I should just say that I think the above only applies to the V3.5 XL, the smaller 1 amp V3.5 does allow for connections to a keep alive capacitor, and this has been documented and illustrated elsewhere on forum. Chaz True, but the post (#1219) in which you raised the topic referred to the 3.5XL and my response did likewise although the quote that I added referred to the '3.5'. Apologies to anyone who was confused or misled. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daifly Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 (edited) The stay alive power pack for the V4 XL Loksound is free. It comes ready mounted on each decoder. It works well, really well. All my loco & DMU fleet have V4 and V4 XL stay alive and no stutter at all. I think that you'll find that only the V4 XL has the built-in stay alive. The V4 requires the add-on Powerpack module or a suitable capacitor. Dave Edit to say that I may have misread your comment! I.e. you have 'V4XL stay alive and V4' on your fleet. Edited December 13, 2013 by daifly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted December 12, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2013 There are options for radio controlled on board battery power but it will need charging and of course finding room for batteries in the smaller models is an issue. If I was starting again I might consider going down that route. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 There are options for radio controlled on board battery power but it will need charging and of course finding room for batteries in the smaller models is an issue. If I was starting again I might consider going down that route. Don I agree that this might be an option although I suspect many, like me, will already be committed to DCC. Of course smaller models have always been a challenge. I find myself needing to find room to fit in a DCC decoder, a speaker and now a capacitor. Most of the advice on the latter suggests using the largest value you can find room for. I have yet to see any comments on how small a capacitor can be used and still make a significant difference. Figures of anything from 5 to 30 seconds are often quoted but is a typical stall likely to need more than a fraction of a second to avoid? I know that a reserve is desirable as the capacitor will take longer to recharge than it does discharge. But there does seem room for someone to do some tests... Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted December 13, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2013 Hi Chaz There is an article in the latest issue of Scalefour News 185 for various options on stay alive capacitors if you can get hold of a copy. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 Hi Chaz There is an article in the latest issue of Scalefour News 185 for various options on stay alive capacitors if you can get hold of a copy. SS Thanks for that SS. Only snag is I don't know anyone who's a member.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 That's ok Dave, easily done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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