China Clay wagons

[oldknotty]

Ok guys help me out here I understand that the hooded and flat covered china clay wagons were pulled by steam and diesel power which was done by which ??

Thanks martin

[kandc_au]

I thought the answer was both to both!

The hoods came later.(I think the 60's) usually it was tarped flat.

 

Khris

[kandc_au]

Any reason why it took so long before hoods were used?

Was it not really a priority before that or ?

 

Khris

[oldknotty]

Thanks Guys much appreciated there once again :-)

[Fat Controller]

Weren't the wagons built unfitted, then fitted with vacuum brakes towards the end of the 1950s?

[TomJ]

A huge variety of wagons were used for transporting china clay. The classic clay hoods have their origins in a GWR design, then updated by BR and later vacum fitted. They were fitted with end doors specifically for unloading at Fowey docks. The hoods were a later addition, about 1973 I think. I have read that they were basically a stop gap measure to improve the wagons without spending the money needed for a new fleet.

A motley crew of various wooden bodies wagons were used for transporting clay elsewhere, including the 'clayliner' to the Potteries. These didn't have hoods fitted and there wasn't really a standard wagon as such. These lasted until the early 80s when replaced with high speed, high capacity air-braked wagons.

 

The clay hoods rarely left the West Country, being used on local workings to Fowey, but were seen later on in Devon on the Torrington line (they were specially marked for bally clay only).

 

So steam and early diesels (class 22 and 25) no hoods, blue diesel (25 and 37) hooded wagons on local services, flat ones on others.

[hmrspaul]

Weren't the wagons built unfitted, then fitted with vacuum brakes towards the end of the 1950s?

 

Oly B743000 - 3299 were originally unfit, the later ones were built VB.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

If you want to go further back in time, the GWR solution to the transport of china clay was the Dia. O13 single end door 5 plank open wagon. I am sure that Paul B. will be able to tell you more about their service lives and withdrawl dates than I can! I would be interested to know how long they lasted in service actually please Paul... We have a fully restored example that lives in the yard at Didcot that was built in 1913 and there are some nice pictures of it here:

 

http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/92943/92943.html

 

Parkside Dundas do a great little kit of it in 4mm scale and it is readily available direct from them at:

 

http://www.parksidedundas.co.uk/

 

I would also recommend buying the 6 rib GWR self contained buffers from the Lanarkshire Model Supplies bit of the same website as they really finish the kit off nicely.

 

Once Mr Isherwood has moved house (!) you can get a sheet of transfers for the Dia. O13 wagons with this:

 

Sheet BL102 – BR ex-GWR china clay tippler wagons to GWR Diagram O13.

This sheet provides transfers for FORTY wagons.

 

From this website:

 

http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm

 

Usual no connection with the companies - just a satisfied customer type disclaimer.

 

I hope this helps!

 

Castle

[Gwiwer]

Flat-tarped wagons would have been hauled by steam and earlier diesels of classes 22, 42 and 52 plus shunted by class 08 on the BR network. Once in the Port of Par however thier own very much cut-down steam locos were used until late in the day.

 

The well-known hoods replaced flat tarps from around 1974 and due - it was said at the time - to the increasing spoliage to the dried clay due to water ingress as the old tarps wore out. Hoods seldom worked out of Cornwall as noted. Flat tarped wagons remained in use on other flows. Perhaps ironically considering their relative fame the hoods only lasted a short time until the wagons were withdrawn in the 80s while the flat tarps had lasted much longer.

 

In later days classes 25, 37, 50 and 66 have been associated with the clay traffic including both hoods and later wagons.

 

Ball clay was a particular variety of china-clay found only in limited deposits mostly around Bovey Tracey and Marland. It was not mixed with dry powdered clay and therefore needed its own wagon fleet. Those were stencilled Ball Clay Only and when tarps were introduced the ball clay wagons had a yellow stripe around the blue hood.

[lancer1027]

 

 

Hi, I apologise if this has been asked before. But what colour tarpaulin where they when they were flat sheeted.

 

Rob

[Fat Controller]

Hi, I apologise if this has been asked before. But what colour tarpaulin where they when they were flat sheeted.

 

Rob

They'd have been black/very dark grey when new, weathering into a mixture of shades of grey (though not 50..) over time.

[The Stationmaster]

They'd have been black/very dark grey when new, weathering into a mixture of shades of grey (though not 50..) over time.

Definitely black when new Brian as they were treated with a tar/bitumen based substance to waterproof them.  But they weathered off very quickly.

[Phil Bullock]

Heres our representation of the clayliner - St Blazey to Etruria and return - first working on this clip

 

 

 

Flat tarps are done with wide masking tape over a ball of tissue to represent the clay - corners carefully folded and stuck down with super glue then painted various shades of grey and weathered.

 

Wagons are wrong for this working however - they should be 10ft wheelbase and roller bearing fitted not 9ft wheelbase and plain bearings.

 

Heres the real thing without the tarps heading south at Norton Junction behind 47051 in Autumn 1976

 

 

We have another rake of wagons for the empties with the tarps folded in the wagons although occasionally a van or two was included in the train for the tarps to be stowed in.

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

'Tarps' was a word I don't think I ever heard on the railway but some of the older wet-weather gear worn with some types of uniform were known as 'tarpaulins' and were identified as such on clothing ordering documentation apart from the colloquial use.  The things which were used to (hopefully) keep the wet off a wagon's contents were 'sheets' and were always known as such in both everyday conversation wherever I worked on the railway and in every official document I think I've ever come across. (pedant mode 'off')

 

Incidentally I'm reasonably sure that plastic sheets - which were mid grey in colour - were tried on clay wagons before they were provided with sheet rails for the final 'clayhood' design.  Plastic sheets were considerably cheaper than the earlier material and, of course, were naturally waterproof so needed less maintenance but I recall that at first they weren't popular because they tended to be slippery to handle and thus difficult to fold until they'd weathered down a bit; the early versions were also prone to rip.

[hornbyandbf3fan]

The 'hoods were invented in 1973, to keep water off the clay......anything before that was a flat sheet....

 

Steam was gone from Cornwall in 64. so hoods only get pulled by diesels, and blue ones at that

And I've bought one as well!  Need an excuse to get a class 37 anyway

[Phil Bullock]

Ooops - sorry Mike!  forgive my lazy lexicon.

 

Off to stand in the dunces corner - you are right of course wagons were sheeted!

 

Phil
 

[Tim H]

In later days classes 25, 37, 50 and 66 have been associated with the clay traffic including both hoods and later wagons.

Not 66s, the "hoods" had long gone by then. Assume you meant 46s, quite a few of which were allocated to Laira in the 1970s, and regularly appeared on clay workings (as did 47s)

[The Stationmaster]

Ooops - sorry Mike!  forgive my lazy lexicon.

 

Off to stand in the dunces corner - you are right of course wagons were sheeted!

 

Phil

 

Not specifically aimed at you Phil, honest guv  The incorrect term has tended to raise its head elsewhere in this thread and in the past in other RMweb threads so I thought another reminder might be useful to all and sundry. (And just imagine a place called Tarpstore Junction  )

[Fat Controller]

'Tarps' was a word I don't think I ever heard on the railway but some of the older wet-weather gear worn with some types of uniform were known as 'tarpaulins' and were identified as such on clothing ordering documentation apart from the colloquial use.  The things which were used to (hopefully) keep the wet off a wagon's contents were 'sheets' and were always known as such in both everyday conversation wherever I worked on the railway and in every official document I think I've ever come across. (pedant mode 'off')

 

Incidentally I'm reasonably sure that plastic sheets - which were mid grey in colour - were tried on clay wagons before they were provided with sheet rails for the final 'clayhood' design.  Plastic sheets were considerably cheaper than the earlier material and, of course, were naturally waterproof so needed less maintenance but I recall that at first they weren't popular because they tended to be slippery to handle and thus difficult to fold until they'd weathered down a bit; the early versions were also prone to rip.

I remember helping fold the plasticsheets off the Clayliner at Longport (they'd rope in any mug they could find), and finding them much harder to handle than lorry sheets of similar size of traditional material.

[Oldddudders]

 The things which were used to (hopefully) keep the wet off a wagon's contents were 'sheets' and were always known as such in both everyday conversation wherever I worked on the railway and in every official document I think I've ever come across. (pedant mode 'off')

 

 

ISTR one pre-Grouping Company even had a junction named in their honour - Sheet Stores Junction!

[The Stationmaster]

ISTR one pre-Grouping Company even had a junction named in their honour - Sheet Stores Junction!

Indeed (the Midland I do believe) - hence my comment in Post No.20

[Fat Controller]

Indeed (the Midland I do believe) - hence my comment in Post No.20

Just south of Trent Junction, takes traffic from Toton towards Burton/Stoke; I had to try and do a sketch-map of it last week.

[Gwiwer]

Not 66s, the "hoods" had long gone by then. Assume you meant 46s, quite a few of which were allocated to Laira in the 1970s, and regularly appeared on clay workings (as did 47s)

 

To clarify this point I had not intended that 66s and hoods be associated, rather that in the context of china clay operations class 66 is firmly associated with the workings hauling most of the "later" wagons I suggested.

[Southernman46]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the "Clayliner" wagons seemed to have gained roller bearings whilst the rest remained oil "bearinged".

 

Also there seemed to have been a number of standard 13t open wagons converted for china clay working or were these the ones used for the Clayliner / rest of the UK (i.e. Strood in Kent) workings leaving the UCV's (B743xxx's) in Cornwall / Devon ?

 

Of course I might just be talking complete ball clay

[Fat Controller]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the "Clayliner" wagons seemed to have gained roller bearings whilst the rest remained oil "bearinged".

 

Also there seemed to have been a number of standard 13t open wagons converted for china clay working or were these the ones used for the Clayliner / rest of the UK (i.e. Strood in Kent) workings leaving the UCV's (B743xxx's) in Cornwall / Devon ?

 

Of course I might just be talking complete ball clay

The 13t 'standard' Highs, along with examples from all the Big 4, were used for traffic to other parts of the UK; those used for the Clayliner service to Stoke were fitted with roller-bearings, but many of the others retained oil boxes. They weren't used for services to Par or Fowey Harbours, as they lacked the end-doors required for the tippers used to unload the wagons.