Great West Road - transfers & I’m not talking football!

[Donw]

It is funny but I used to ignore such engines, not a proper GW engine, now I wish I had paid more attention at the time. Nice model Polly

[georgeT]

Happy New Year Ray and Polly,  Hope you both have a great modelling 2014, looking forward to the progress.

 

All the best   George

[southern42]

Happy New Year, George. Hopefully, there'll be an opportunity for a meeting up over a coffee again, this year.

Happy weathering and building in 2014.

Polly

[southern42]

In that part of the world it was a 16t mineral wagon - the name goes back to the 'pooling' of most coal wagons during WWII.  However in my experience even on the Western Region it was not universally used and the meaning varied a bit, London end it was basically applied in some yards to all empty flat bottom coal carrying wagons, at least one yard at that end only applied it to 16 tonners while in those parts of South Wales where I worked it wasn't used at all and we had 16 tonners, 21 ton flats, 21 ton hoppers, 'bombers' (24.5ton flats) and so on - a big reason for differentiation being that not a few collieries could only accept certain types of wagon.

 

All a matter of 'railway english as she was spoke'

 

I remembered reading about pooling somewhere...now, where was it?...So...Some time later...after getting absorbed in sections of Hawkins and Reeve (again)...page 136 and a splendid example, No. 2875, of the 28xxs which used to pull the coal wagons.  Also, while we're on the subject of WDs, on page 147, an Austerity and the comment, "They used to rattle and bang a lot."  And, what may interest you in this intoxicating season, there was beer to Woodford in BR days - that'll be handy for my ale wagon.  :yes:

Now, that's how to spend New Year's Eve. 

 

Polly

[The Stationmaster]

I remembered reading about pooling somewhere...now, where was it?...So...Some time later...after getting absorbed in sections of Hawkins and Reeve (again)...page 136 and a splendid example, No. 2875, of the 28xxs which used to pull the coal wagons.  Also, while we're on the subject of WDs, on page 147, an Austerity and the comment, "They used to rattle and bang a lot."  And, what may interest you in this intoxicating season, there was beer to Woodford in BR days - that'll be handy for my ale wagon.  :yes:

Now, that's how to spend New Year's Eve. 

 

Polly

 

The WDs had a sound all of their own in motion - more 'clonking' than rattling as I remember them.  The only Woodford's left in the end were the North Acton coal trains which were usually worked by 8Fs, which went to Southall for water and coal if needed as by then Old oak had closed to steam. 

[southern42]

So, where to put all these lovely locos?

 

This is the latest plan in AnyRail for Peco code 75.

 

...and a go at mapping it out with some spare track, points and paper printouts (small Peco turnouts I'd printed out for something else).  This view looking towards the coal stage using a RTP one just to give you an idea.

 

This view looking towards the shed, using the GWR mock up - this will be redesigned - and the turntable, indicated by a wooden plate at the far end.

 

You will notice a couple of points with a wire attached.  Don't worry, I'm not trying to connect it all up - HAHA    - they just happen to still be on there from a previous project. [The double slip is by Tillig but Ray had no end of problems with some stock derailing on it, so switched back to Peco.]

 

My main concern is the short stretch of track (which will also need a catch point) between the exit road from the shed and platform.  Anything longer than about 10" will end up moving into the platform road to get from the coaling road to shed or turntable roads.  I assume this will contravene prototype practice.

 

Another concern is whether I have enough length to get the branch line under the main board with at least 2ft 6in of fiddle space at the end.  The land will rise to enable a small bridge to go over while the line still descends, though on the prototype this occurred a mile down the road at Three Bridges over a two road trackbed.  That's my hope, anyway. 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/markhillary/3672250995/

 

Any suggestions, most welcome.

Thanks.

Polly

Edited January 5, 2014 by southern42

[Donw]

Any platform road would be under the control of the signalman so ideally you wouldn't want to keep using it in a busy station. It looks from your plan that you could gain an inch or two what is the largest loco you hope to run. I expect there were places on the GW where there was clearance for the 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s but may not be enough for those foreign 4-6-2s.

Don

[southern42]

81C.  Thanks for reminding me of those bridges.  I had used these on my first plans. That's also prompted me to remember that a footpath followed the arched factory wall opposite the platform down to the railcar shed and then over to the coal shed.

In the picture of the GWR shed and Maypole Dairy in the link below, there is a walkway, with steps either side, across the track at the other end of the railcar shed. 

http://www.railmotor93.org/shed/pictures/southall_01.html

Add a footbridge at the end of the track to continue the footpath down to the turntable - even if it's all overgrown through lack of use.

AEC footbridge

http://www.aecsouthall.co.uk/southall/0007.htm

or use of tunnel idea.

http://www.aecsouthall.co.uk/southall/0010.htm

The tunnel should be fairly easy to model using the Ratio arches kit.

 

 

 

[southern42]

First off, thank you all and congratulations to everyone for taking us to page 20 with 475 replies and over 21,000 views - and not a piece of track laid, yet, but all your help, support and input, is helping me get there.  You have contributed so much information and many real life stories.  It has not only been informative, but entertaining, funny HAHA, reminiscent, and reassuring, and loads more besides.

 

And, now, back to business.

Donw. Yes, the signal box won't want to be overworked.  I'll have to get the 9F out to see how long that is.  No I won't: I can Google it.

So, in ascending order:

9F 2-10-0 / 66ft 2" = nearly10¹/2" in 4mm scale

WC 4-6-2 / 67 ft 4³/4 in (20.54 m)

WD 2-8-0 / 67 ft 6 ¹⁄₄ in (20.58 m) over buffers = 270mm = 10⁵/8" = just over 10¹/2"

[Loco dimensions from Wikipedia]

Of course, in 4mm, it'll all depend on how closely coupled the tender is to the loco. 

 

Compare this with the prototype.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gricerman/9510817059/sizes/o/

 

I think (hope) the gap can be adjusted on the model, though.

 

Polly

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew P]

Hi Polly, good to see some signs of track and a plan,

 

congrats on the postings and views.

 

Do you need any of my spare nails? hahhaaa

 

Bodge

 

EDIT = No smilies were hurt in the posting of this message.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Andrew P

[billyb_imp]

First off, thank you all and congratulations to everyone for taking us to page 20 with 475 replies and over 21,000 views - and not a piece of track laid, yet, but all your help, support and input, is helping me get there.  You have contributed so much information and many real life stories.  It has not only been informative, but entertaining, funny HAHA, reminiscent, and reassuring, and loads more besides.

 

And, now, back to business.

Donw. Yes, the signal box won't want to be overworked.  I'll have to get the 9F out to see how long that is.  No I won't: I can Google it.

So, in ascending order:

9F 2-10-0 / 66ft 2" = nearly10¹/2" in 4mm scale

WC 4-6-2 / 67 ft 4³/4 in (20.54 m)

WD 2-8-0 / 67 ft 6 ¹⁄₄ in (20.58 m) over buffers = 270mm = 10⁵/8" = just over 10¹/2"

[Loco dimensions from Wikipedia]

Of course, in 4mm, it'll all depend on how closely coupled the tender is to the loco. 

IMG_0673 WD Austerity coupling distance.JPG

 

Compare this with the prototype.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gricerman/9510817059/sizes/o/

 

I think (hope) the gap can be adjusted on the model, though.

 

Polly

Polly

 

First of all a bit late but seasons greetings.

 

20 pages moving towards 500 replies because its fascinating stuff, onwards to a 1000 replies then

[southern42]

Thanks Andy, but I could definitely do with some spare nails, mine keep breaking - they never get longer than a couple millimetres.   :jester:  

 

Here's to some more posts and a bit of modelling.  

 

Polly

[southern42]

Polly

 

First of all a bit late but seasons greetings.

 

20 pages moving towards 500 replies because its fascinating stuff, onwards to a 1000 replies then

 

Happy New Year and thanks, billyb_imp.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the coming year throws up on here. 

 

Polly

[Donw]

Dont forget that in 4mm you need the distance over couplings  to clear the other path and to make sure the pick-up wheels dont foul the crossing area and cause a short (unless you are using insulfrog which I do not recommend.

Don

[ChrisN]

Polly,

Well done on getting to 20 pages.  I would like to comment on the track plan but have nothing useful to say.

 

Did you say that the brach is going 'under' the other tracks?  Is it starting at a lower level or what sort of gradient will it be on?  Sorry, I probably understood it 15 pages ago but have forgotten.

[southern42]

Polly,

Well done on getting to 20 pages.  I would like to comment on the track plan but have nothing useful to say.

 

Did you say that the brach is going 'under' the other tracks?  Is it starting at a lower level or what sort of gradient will it be on?  Sorry, I probably understood it 15 pages ago but have forgotten.

 

The original plan was a bit different with the branch line with exit (to the left) behind the platform to a sector plate and from there to the shed.  On the current plan, all traffic exits from the terminus roads (to the right) to the mainline (fiddleyard) or the shed . 

 

The branch will go underground to some form of fiddleyard.  My thinking is to have a LH point that leads to a fixed shuttle road and a sector plate behind for goods.

Brentford lost its passenger service in GWR days (1942), but as Southall also served other local branch lines I intend to use this as a reason to run a railcar or two, 14xx with autocoach and a class 121 bubble car as typical of Western Division branch lines (c.1961-65).  There'd also be the occasional tour train and the engine drivers special with No. 9642.  So plenty of options possible and that doesn't include 2011.

 

Fast forward to 2011.  Tornado in Brunswick green turned up in the post today to line up with Britannia 70000 and [C. of Australia dressed as] Bittern dressed as Dominion of New Zealand. http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2011/steam-giants-on-the-move/  With two support coaches to accommodate, there would be a good bit of (inventive) shunting to keep me amused for a bit.  We'll see. 

 

Polly

[southern42]

I was over on Lunester Lounge and admiring Sandside's loco groupings and the possible appearance of some those locos. #3651

 

And, as you do, my thoughts turned to my own possible locos, in particular Class 33, prolific in 2011 but what about the 1960s?  There doesn't appear to have been any stabled at Southall, but it so happens, they did go there.  In 1963, according to the Derby Sulzers website, below, Type 3's were working to Southall on the Fawley - Denham oil tanks.  So, refinery in Hamshire to where?  Who took the oil once it got to Southall / Denham? 

 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/class33.html

 

From the layout point of view, a Class 33 alongside the fuel filling station and a rake of oil tanks shunted into a siding?  We'll have to see but it's here, now, for reference.

 

And lo and behold, a 47 coming into the relief roads for the south yard in 1977 so my imagination isn't far off.  

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8454/7984851755_536739bde1_o.jpg

 

 

 

Also, in looking for examples of locations for a water column on Camel Quay, I came across several other examples of brake van trains.  Interesting that they all became so available and popular on the tour front. 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/pre-1968-steam-railtours-in-cornwall--devon.html

Something to get just right, then, and if you've had any experiences on these things, just let us all know about it. I must get a go on one of those brake vans next time we go to Barrow Hill. 

 

 

 

And lastly, for now, anyway, a look at Sad Sights at Southall featuring locos 61xx Prairie, 2-8-0 no. 2813, 7022, "Hereford Castle" and unidentified 4-6-0 Hall.

http://www.numberseventy.co.uk/Sad_Sights_at_Southall.html

 

I've read of two pannier tanks operating on the Brentford incline.  This website mentions four.  If I plan to do that on my branch line I won't have room for any of the wagons.  :laugh:

 

You may also notice the old margarine factory now proudly displaying the Walls sign.

 

 

Polly

 

Edit - to update link

Edited November 10, 2014 by southern42

[7APT7]

Hi Polly

 

Some very good links they have stated there, the cl33 was interesting.... didn't realise they were build back in 1959 - 1977... Ill add that to my knowledge bank for future reference and the rail.co.uk is a good website.

 

The 1968 steam rail tours is interesting, love the way no H&S, walking across the track rout to the outside of the steam train from off the platform, that would be a £1000 fine today if not more.

 

Thank you for sharing those with us all

 

Jamie

[Andrew P]

Morning Polly, the list in LL that Jeff suggested originally was to nominate youre FAVORITE top 3 Steam and Diesels, not necessarily what would run on your layout, but a list from you would be good to see, poss a 1950's list and a 1990's one to see how things have changed.

 

Great pics above of the Type 3 and 4.

 

Keep well, all the best to you and Ray.

 

And

[southern42]

Hi Polly

 

Some very good links they have stated there, the cl33 was interesting.... didn't realise they were build back in 1959 - 1977... Ill add that to my knowledge bank for future reference and the rail.co.uk is a good website.

 

The 1968 steam rail tours is interesting, love the way no H&S, walking across the track rout to the outside of the steam train from off the platform, that would be a £1000 fine today if not more.

 

Thank you for sharing those with us all

 

Jamie

The photos of people all over the trackside on these tour trains had me fascinated.  Something I like about Barrow Hill, Butterley and Didcot in particular is getting the feel of it, seeing things from ground level.  I also liked one photo I saw of the man taking photos up a signal post - something I've also seen recorded at Southall, so I'm guessing that was all part of the scene.

 

 

Hi Polly

There was/is an aviation fuel discharge point at Colnbrook which the same line pre M25 days use to go to Staines fuel terminal and a Petrol/diesel depot at Langley which had a large blaze some time back, Denham doesn't ring any bells there is only Martin Baker's ejection seat factory there.

Have purchased a Dukedog yet any excuse will do they are the biz, new brass plates arrived as I typed.

 

 

 

 

Edit just remembered there was a terminal at Harefield just north of Uxbridge very near to Denham that might be the one in the link.

Thanks, 81C.  Presumably the tanks were taken off to these depots by another loco. What type of loco would that have been?  Southall only had 08s for the shed and yards as far as I know.

 

People - stop tempting me to buy a Dukedog.  Bulldogs were stabled at Southall but I don't know whether Dukes appeared there.  No doubt, someone will tell me they did.

 

 

Andy, talking of locos, you mentioned a list for GWRd.  I'll try and post something over the weekend so that you can see those classes I hope or would like to represent - not necessarily the same thing.

 

Polly

[Neal Ball]

.......Southall only had 08s for the shed and yards as far as I know.

 

People - stop tempting me to buy a Dukedog.  Bulldogs were stabled at Southall but I don't know whether Dukes appeared there.  No doubt, someone will tell me they did.....

 

 

 

Evening Polly,

 

Pretty sure the nearest to London a Dukedog was stabled was Didcot for the DNS line. 

 

08 - pretty sure they were only based at the shed, but I bet they regularly went down the Brentford branch for the occasional freights.

 

Have you decided on the final track layout yet?

Regards,

Neal

[Andrew P]

Hi Polly, will you pair be coming down to Stafford at the weekend, George and I are going on the Saturday.

 

Andy

[Donw]

Not sure if a Duke ever appeared at Southall but it would have been a long time ago. I cannot remeber ever seeing a Dukedog on the mainline the whole purpose of a Dukedog was to produce something with a larger route availability than a Bulldog, so they tended to be on the secondary lines.

Don

[southern42]

Evening Polly,

 

Pretty sure the nearest to London a Dukedog was stabled was Didcot for the DNS line.

 

08 - pretty sure they were only based at the shed, but I bet they regularly went down the Brentford branch for the occasional freights.

 

Have you decided on the final track layout yet?

Regards,

Neal

Thanks, Neal.

 

I've only found evidence of the Dukedog at Didcot, too. Not a problem for Great West Road 1961 as they had gone by 1960.

 

Branch Lines of West London mentions the need for two class 08 shunters on the branch after the end of steam working the crossovers at The Ham.

 

I know what I want out of the layout, but I need to make sure that it will work in all areas, so I'm happy enough, for now, to work out the different movements for 1961 and 2011. As I also want to run GWR (more on that later) there's a lot to take onboard. So, although I won't actually be laying any track for a bit, I will explain things that I hope to do. In that way, I'm sure everyone will join in and agree/disagree accordingly and help me get it right.

 

Simply - shed movements, branch movements and traffic coming in from the mainline (fiddle yard).

 

More later.

 

Andy - loco classes coming up soon, too.

Edited January 28, 2014 by southern42

[southern42]

Good evening, all. [Think I'd better make that a Good Morning!]

 

Continuation on the oil trains.

 

I take a reading trip along Branch Lines of West London (Middleton Press) and I find a working example. 

 

Using a mixture of this knowledge and further photos I've seen on the web, I could possibly use this for oil or other commodities

 

So, come with me to Staines, home of Frederick Walton's linoleum factory [Did you have lino on your floor?] with its maze of railway lines and a mustard & flour mill.

 

The year is 1964 and Shell Mex & BP have created a terminal for heating oil on the site of the goods yard.

A year later, 61xx No. 6134 heads an oil train (trains ran from Ripple Lane, Barking, Essex to Southall) into the station platform of Staines West.

The loco runs round and propels the train into the siding built to take 12 tanks [ http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/staines_west/ ].

A few months later, diesels, such as Hymek D7065 as seen in 1966, took over.

 

Class 22s also did the run [see The Class 22 thread #11 with contributions from Rivercider, The Stationmaster, dibber25, Rugd1022, and pigeonspecial - apologies if I've missed someone.]

 

At the time, 6134 was a Southall loco (10 January 1965 - 19 September 1965).

[http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=101998&type=S&loco=6134]

 

 

Based on these accounts, for GWRd, I'm thinking along the lines of:

 

• Class 33 brings oil train into the platform from mainline (fiddleyard), runs round train and shunts it into The Siding (built to take 6 tanks?) - my representation of South Yard (pitiful, really!).
• Loco uncouples, refuels and goes off to next duty.
• 61xx picks up oil train and takes it off scene - to Staines West, where else?
• The train returns later.
• Class 33 collects and takes the train off scene.

 

This could take place over one or more operating sessions.

 

Other commodities could work similarly but head down the branch line headed by a couple of tankies.

 

Sketch of platform end (AnyRail) for reference - terminal shunt required to hold class 33 which is about 8ins long. Class 22 a tad shorter.

 

 

Hope that all makes sense.

 

Polly

Edited January 29, 2014 by southern42