Theory of General Minories

[Pacific231G]

It's a very specific arrangement of points in the throat that makes Minories. As you say, there are other ways to reduce the effects of crossovers, but they are not Minories.

 

That said "Minories" is a proper noun referring to a specific layout plan and not an adjective meaning "well-designed" when referring to small urban termini. There a lots of different ways to drink your Vimto - one of my favourite layouts, Tower Pier, is quite different from Minories (and rather odd) but works very well.

I have to agree. Connecting three platforms to both sides of a double track line in the length of four turnouts is a trivial design task but in 00 or H0, though a train of main line corridor stock will go through a single typical three foot radius set of points fairly smoothly, a straight crossover  will give apparent buffer locking and an absurdly large displacement  of the corridor connections as the train lurches across it. Cyril Freezer's particular arrangement of points avoided this for all but one of the six possible routes and you can improve even that by making just those two points longer.

I've been experimenting with a slight modificatiion using a Y and two longer points and it does reduce the dogleg effect without any futher increase in length  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101033-minories-1983/page-3&do=findComment&comment=1955756  I think it's still close enough to the original to be recognisably Minories.

 

The only way you can completely avoid reverse curves is by using a curved approach but with enough length they can be well staggered

This doesn't just apply to us. If you watch trains approaching Paddington (except to platform 12 !) they snake in beautifully mainly because the approach elegantly avoids any reverse curves. But, if you travel from Paddington to Greenford the junction at West Ealing involves a crossover followed by a set of points giving access to the branch and, though the crossover is far longer that any you'd usually find on a model there's still a very noticeable couple of lurches and a fairly large movement of the corridor connection. 

 

Update:This particular test of crossovers is no longer generally available as the Greenford Branch now normally terminates at West Ealing's new bay platform, usually just as the GWR Electrostar is pulling out! .

Edited May 5, 2017 by Pacific231G

[fegguk]

Post 213 in this thread incorporated y points

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/page-9

Edited July 23, 2015 by fegguk

[Pacific231G]

Post 213 in this thread incorporated y points

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/page-9

Hi fegguk

213 was also from me but I was interested in the approach arrangement you came up with and wondered if you'd taken it further.

.

I've now laid out the approach for the modified version of Minories I posted in 213 on a spare piece of ply and have been trying it out with various combinations of stock. So far I'm finding that the excess throwover is no greater for any route than for a simple junction with a medium length (3ft radius) set of points. The pointwork is exactly three feet long so it'll fit comfortable onto my planned metre length board

 

 

Despite replacing one of the back to backs with a Y I think this is still a legitimate Minories as the same principle separates most of what would otherwise be S curves on crossovers.

This arrangement is growing on me. It has a less pronounced overall S curve than the original Minories and to my eyes that looks a bit more natural, the curve through the platforms is a simple one not an S and, most important,  the critical route from the "up" (inbound) line to platform one (at the top) no longer has an excessive overthrow to the point of buffer locking.

 

For a main lne terminus I'm up against it for length with only four metres available including a fiddle yard but I think a couple of scenic breaks, especially Cyril Freezer's idea of a road bridge, will conceal the fact of grand expresses with only "four and a fourgon" (four coaches and a four wheel baggage car) or possibly five coaches with shorter locos. That's at home but lengths of both platforms and fiddle yard could be extended if it goes out. 

Edited September 10, 2015 by Pacific231G

[fegguk]

_{Sorry still pondering.}

[Pacific231G]

_{Sorry still pondering.}

So am I. After 18 months the throat point work is still taped to the same board and progress has been nil. I really must get on with it.

[Karhedron]

I really must get on with it.

The battle-cry of modelers the world over.

[dgp1957]

Hi guys hope you don't mind me resurrecting this thread. I have recently acquired 3 baseboard kits each measuring 900mm x 400mm, giving me a scenic area of 2700mm x 400mm.

Looking at the plans posted earlier, especially the Glasgow central themed one, I was wondering if someone could maybe draw one up for me in anyrail. I don't have a computer just a tablet and anyrail will not install on it?

I am using basic Hornsby points although I have peco flexitrack and a peco double slip, any ideas folks?

 

David

[danstercivicman]

I love my minories layout! I've done a GCR what of themed, it's hours of fun and a good plan as drawn

[Pacific231G]

I love my minories layout! I've done a GCR what of themed, it's hours of fun and a good plan as drawn

With good reason. Birmingham Hope St. is a very nice layout. 

 

There are no fewer than three layouts using the original Minories plan at Alexandra Palace this weekend in 2mm fine scale, 3mm and EM.

[danstercivicman]

The west end of Sheffield Victoria would make an interesting "throat" for a terminus.

 

This thread has been dead for three years, but I'm glad I've found it.  Your diagram has given me an Einstein moment!

[Pacific231G]

This thread has been dead for three years, but I'm glad I've found it.  Your diagram has given me an Einstein moment!

Does this mean you can now take us from the special to the general theory of  Minories design

[ejstubbs]

This thread has been dead for three years

 

Er, hardly - the last post before yours was less than a month ago.  But hey, that's relativity for you.  Probably.  Oh no, hang on, that's quantum physics.

Edited April 21, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Compound2632]

Going back even further, the January 1969 number of the Model Railway News features a layout "New Victoria Line" by L. E. Carroll, that I've kept in mind for its full interlocking of points, signals and track sections. As an urban terminus with a double track approach, it shares with Minories the basic requirement of trailing and facing crossovers but avoids reverse curves by having the crossovers on a sweeping 90-degree curve - so they are all curved points with the curvature the same way. 

[Pacific231G]

Going back even further, the January 1969 number of the Model Railway News features a layout "New Victoria Line" by L. E. Carroll, that I've kept in mind for its full interlocking of points, signals and track sections. As an urban terminus with a double track approach, it shares with Minories the basic requirement of trailing and facing crossovers but avoids reverse curves by having the crossovers on a sweeping 90-degree curve - so they are all curved points with the curvature the same way. 

If you have an angled or curved approach you wouldn't necessarily need curved points. In that situation it's fairly straightforward to design a throat with basic left and right hand points that has no reverse curves at all. That allows the use of points with a larger than usual crossing angle with no buffer locking. I know I tend to bang on about it but my favourite throat design- the old Bastille terminus in Paris- was  laid with standard left and right hand points using the sharpest of SNCF's standard crossings (tan 0.13) normally only used for goods sidings. The only exceptions were one single slip and a three way in the small loco depot using the same crossing angle.That enabled a very complex throat for intense rush working into five platforms to be crammed into an incredibly short space (though it probably wasn't a good idea to attempt to drink a hot cup of coffee!)

Edited April 30, 2017 by Pacific231G

[danstercivicman]

 

Many thanks for the comments.

 

I am one of those sad people, who instead of watching telly or reading a book to relax, I get a pad and a pencil and doodle layout designs. When I first came up with this one, it was dead straght and the pointwork still is. The curve only happens after the pointwork and that is a feature from Chesterfield. That gets away from the track being parallel to the baseboard edge, which hopefully makes what is quite a simple plan more visually appealing.

 

Looking at it, I will claim a couple of other slight "Minories" features in that all the pointwork is on one board, allowing for nice and easy mechanical linkages with no cross baseboard linkages and there is a short spur for the station pilot to sit on but you are quite right, the overall rationale and the operational side will be quite different.

 

I have started work on the lever frame today and I am hoping that the points will be operational before too long. I have been working out the lengths of the pushes and pulls in the rodding and introducing compensators as I have a dread of getting into difficulty if temperature variations are like the ones we had at Wells this weekend.

 

When fully completed, the layout will be run as pre-grouping Great Central (it probably doesn't show in the photo but the pointwork is based on GCR drawings) but there is a lot of stock building to be done before I get there so locos and stock will be scrounged from elsewhere for the time being, hence the Royal Scot!

I know this thread is very old, I can't find a layout thread or update- how did you get on with the small y point? Did it cause any issues?

[danstercivicman]

Er, hardly - the last post before yours was less than a month ago. But hey, that's relativity for you. Probably. Oh no, hang on, that's quantum physics.

 

Yup it's an old thread but it's very useful

 

I am re visiting it for inspiration (again)

Er, hardly - the last post before yours was less than a month ago. But hey, that's relativity for you. Probably. Oh no, hang on, that's quantum physics.

 

Yup it's an old thread but it's very useful

 

I am re visiting it for inspiration (again)

[danstercivicman]

With good reason. Birmingham Hope St. is a very nice layout.

 

There are no fewer than three layouts using the original Minories plan at Alexandra Palace this weekend in 2mm fine scale, 3mm and EM.

Thank you

 

Minories is a great plan, I just wish I had used large radius points

[t-b-g]

I know this thread is very old, I can't find a layout thread or update- how did you get on with the small y point? Did it cause any issues?

 

I saw your PM before I saw the thread, so I will also answer on here.

 

It was not too much of a problem as long as we were careful with what locos we chose for shunting.

 

The 9F (not the big 2-10-0 but the GCR 0-6-2T variety, LNER N5 was OK shunting chimney first but bunker first could give some buffer lockeng. There was one set of carriages that buffer locked too, if they were shunted from the arrival platform to the departure side, so we just put another loco on the other end and ran them out ECS or as a departure from the same platform they came in on.

 

It wasn't the radius of the Y point that caused the problem. It was the reverse curve through the preceding RH point (which is a B7 so is quite gentle) then the immediate change in direction via the 4ft radius Y. To be fair, some of the stock, including the ones that gave trouble, were built many years ago by others and some of the buffers don't line up very well even on the straight.

 

The layout never did get finished as once it was exhibited a couple of times as "work in progress" I got distracted by other projects. It may get finished one day but not until an 0 gauge version has been tackled!

 

This was as advanced as it got. At least the GCR motive power appeared, if not the stock. The building was a mock up based loosely on Chesterfield Market Place.

[danstercivicman]

I saw your PM before I saw the thread, so I will also answer on here.

 

It was not too much of a problem as long as we were careful with what locos we chose for shunting.

 

The 9F (not the big 2-10-0 but the GCR 0-6-2T variety, LNER N5 was OK shunting chimney first but bunker first could give some buffer lockeng. There was one set of carriages that buffer locked too, if they were shunted from the arrival platform to the departure side, so we just put another loco on the other end and ran them out ECS or as a departure from the same platform they came in on.

 

It wasn't the radius of the Y point that caused the problem. It was the reverse curve through the preceding RH point (which is a B7 so is quite gentle) then the immediate change in direction via the 4ft radius Y. To be fair, some of the stock, including the ones that gave trouble, were built many years ago by others and some of the buffers don't line up very well even on the straight.

 

The layout never did get finished as once it was exhibited a couple of times as "work in progress" I got distracted by other projects. It may get finished one day but not until an 0 gauge version has been tackled!

 

This was as advanced as it got. At least the GCR motive power appeared, if not the stock. The building was a mock up based loosely on Chesterfield Market Place.

 

 

Thank you very much for the information and the pics

 

I guess as I run Bachmann OO BR Mk.1's that would be Y point to avoid!   They de rail just looking at pointwork on close couplers even with B2B checked!

 

Best,

 

Dan

[Brian D]

I've only just discovered this thread but have not had time to read all of it.  However, what follows is my take on Minories and I apologise if I am repeating views already expressed.

I am old enough to remember the original article being published in Railway Modeller and have always thought it is loosely based on a version of Fenchurch Street, the London Terminus of the former London Tilbury & Southend Railway (now the London Terminus of the C2C franchise, one of the most punctual operations in the country) - indeed, there is a london street called "Minories" which runs at right angles under the Fenchurch Street station throat (the whole terminus and miles of approach are elevated on brick viaducts).  If memory serves, the article conjectured steam tank engine operation.  This would be right for Fenchurch Street's Tilbury Tanks and later Stanier/Fairburn/BR Standard 2-6-4 tank engines which ruled the roost before electrification and green emu's took over.

Regards,

Brian.

[Fenman]

I've only just discovered this thread but have not had time to read all of it. However, what follows is my take on Minories and I apologise if I am repeating views already expressed.

I am old enough to remember the original article being published in Railway Modeller and have always thought it is loosely based on a version of Fenchurch Street, the London Terminus of the former London Tilbury & Southend Railway (now the London Terminus of the C2C franchise, one of the most punctual operations in the country) - indeed, there is a london street called "Minories" which runs at right angles under the Fenchurch Street station throat (the whole terminus and miles of approach are elevated on brick viaducts). If memory serves, the article conjectured steam tank engine operation. This would be right for Fenchurch Street's Tilbury Tanks and later Stanier/Fairburn/BR Standard 2-6-4 tank engines which ruled the roost before electrification and green emu's took over.

...

I think we covered this earlier? Freezer stated in an interview that he was inspired by the Metropolitan lines at Liverpool Street. The proximity of Fenchurch St stn to the actual thoroughfare named Minories is just a coincidence.

 

Paul

[Brian D]

I think we covered this earlier? Freezer stated in an interview that he was inspired by the Metropolitan lines at Liverpool Street. The proximity of Fenchurch St stn to the actual thoroughfare named Minories is just a coincidence.

 

Paul

Apologies again.  I should have been more dilligent and read through all of the previous 16 or 17 pages!

[Zomboid]

The plans for small railways I have talks of Liverpool Street. But I suspect the road under Fenchurch Street is no coincidence. The District/Circle junction on the Aldgate triangle is called Minories Junction, and according to Wikipedia the terminus of the London & Blackwell railway (rope worked, where Tower Gateway is now) was Minories station.

And of course everything in that part of the city is very close together.

[kevinlms]

The plans for small railways I have talks of Liverpool Street. But I suspect the road under Fenchurch Street is no coincidence. The District/Circle junction on the Aldgate triangle is called Minories Junction, and according to Wikipedia the terminus of the London & Blackwell railway (rope worked, where Tower Gateway is now) was Minories station.

And of course everything in that part of the city is very close together.

I suspect that you're right. The track plan may have been based on the Metropolitan line, but the names seem more Fenchurch St.

[Clive Mortimore]

I suspect that you're right. The track plan may have been based on the Metropolitan line, but the names seem more Fenchurch St.

Hi Kevin

 

This is what inspired Cyril Freezer. https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/533047/181577/13/101329

 

Edit, I forgot to say when you click on the link you will need to zoom out as it will give the following message "Subscribe to view mapping at this zoom level"

Edited May 16, 2017 by Clive Mortimore