Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 When I was an Editor, I always told contributors that they would get something for their efforts but it wouldn't be rich!CHRIS LEIGH Are you shore about that Chris? XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 11, 2012 That doesn't mean that if you take your own pictures, you'll get £500 for them, however. Layout photography is a specialised skill. I should think the investment in lights and cameras, even spread over many shoots, adds a fair bit plus the skill in finding different views which is what the specialists excel at. Maybe I should hire myself out for shaking cloths as photographic backdrops as a business Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Indeed Mike Copyright of any picture always belongs to the photographer not the subject (or its owner). If the photographer is employed by the publisher (PAYE not freelance) then the publisher own th rights. So in this instance, im sorry Dave but, you have no say at all over how and when they use the pictures of your layout. Cheers Jim I'm not so sure of this Jim. Although copyright in the photograph remains with the photographer (or his employer but only if photography was part of his normal job) the layout itsef is also a "work of artistic craftsmanship" so it too is copyright. Though I.P. does affect quite a lot of my work I'm not an expert - for that you probably need to be a specialist I.P. lawyer- so this is only my own understanding but this is what the Intellectual Property Office says http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-artisticworks.htm. "Copyright applies to original artistic works such as paintings, drawings, engravings, sculptures, photographs, diagrams, maps, works of architecture and works of artistic craftsmanship. ....If you wish to use or copy copyright protected artistic works you may need permission from the right holder, unless copyright exceptions apply...." One of the exceptions they give is this "It is not an infringement of the copyright in a work if you draw, take a photograph or make a film of, buildings or sculptures or works of artistic craftsmanship which are located in a public places or in premises open to the public." That may mean that it's legitimate to publish a photo of a layout taken at an exhibition but if photographs were taken with the agreement of the builder for a specific purpose - such as to illustrate a article- that wouldn't allow it to be used willy nilly. Dave's worry that the lack of a contract means there can be no come back is probably wrong as it's usually the other way round: rights that haven't been specifically agreed remain with the copyright holder- in this case the layout builder- I'm sure that if it ever got to a legal case the original intention would be the key point. I'm sure most of us would treat this with common sense but if you feel that someone really is taking the pi** you are entitled to call them on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Claude_Dreyfus Posted August 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2012 For the two articles I submitted for CM, a cheque and complimentary copy of the mag turned up more or less on the publishing date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 My understanding is that you cant self decree a model as a work of artistic craftsmanship. That has to be bestowed on it buy a recognised authority and since (to the best of my knowledge) an artistic body has never recognised a model railway in this way it isnt. It would create problems if it were as photography at exhibitions could very easily be banned as a result. An exhibition is not a public place if you have to pay to get into it. My understanding (which of course may be completely wrong) is that you would only need one layout to be recognised for all to be.. Your last line is of course very sensible and Chris's comment earlier is very pertinent too. No one really gets rich from model railways (not in the smaller scales anyway) however it pays for a magazine to keep contributors and potential contributors happy. After all if a magazine annoys you you can always offer your next article/contribution/thing to a rival mag. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 There is much in the area of copyright in this field which is 'grey' especially when you get into photographs of real thing which are no longer owned by the original photographer. Many historic collections claim copyright in material which is technically out of copyright (that's 50 years since first issued in public NOT 50 years since the picture was taken, by the way). But what constitutes 'first issued in public?' - the first time it was printed from a neg onto a piece of paper and shown to someone? The first time it was printed in a book or magazine? Is that date even known? Just because you own a negative, do you own the copyright as well? In truth, none of this has been tested in court in relation to railway or model railway photos, because it is not worth anyone's while to test it in court. It is cheaper and easier for the publisher to pay his usual fee and apologise for any infringement, and for the 'copyright owner' to accept a fee and an apology. Let's face it, even if you could afford to take it to court, in this market what you get if you win isn't going to cover your legal costs by a long way. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 A certain Dutch (model railway) publisher reckoned I should be gratefull just to get a (1) free copy of their mag, Brian. They had to translate fron ZOB to Dutch don`t forget Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I will not labour my specific point any further as my question was not answered and I really do not care about the money, it was just the principle! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSB Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I didn't even get a free copy of the magazine for an article in Model Trains International a few years ago! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 It would create problems if it were as photography at exhibitions could very easily be banned as a result. An exhibition is not a public place if you have to pay to get into it. My understanding (which of course may be completely wrong) is that you would only need one layout to be recognised for all to be.. I seem to recall a certain large show, a few years back, had signs all over the walls saying "no photography" basically because the sponsors of the show didn't want the paying public to go posting their pictures all over the web and spoil the feature they were planning on it in a magazine. I, and quite a few others who wished to take pictures (with the layout owner's permission out of courtesy) for our own inspiration and use), told them exactly where they could shove their posters, and within an hour the posters had all disappeared. I don't think the organisers ever tried that again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 My understanding is that you cant self decree a model as a work of artistic craftsmanship. That has to be bestowed on it by a recognised authority and since (to the best of my knowledge) an artistic body has never recognised a model railway in this way it isnt. I've been looking at this and in various legal judgements it seems to come down to there being both a degree of craft skill- any model railway beyond track clipped together on a table would pass that test easily- and the intention to produce something of aesthetic value rather than merely functional. Again unless it were simply a test track that intention would be present in virtually all model railways. Within reason, the intention to produce an artistic work seems to be enough and doesn't require the opinion of a recognised authority. I'm not sure in any case who that could be in any part of the arts world- they'd never agree on anything. It would create problems if it were as photography at exhibitions could very easily be banned as a result. An exhibition is not a public place if you have to pay to get into it. My understanding (which of course may be completely wrong) is that you would only need one layout to be recognised for all to be. Again recognised by who? In any case photos taken for private study are allowed according to the IPO -"You are allowed to make single copies or take short extracts of works when the use is for research that you do not make any money from or for private study, for educational courses or even for use in connection with a hobby" The exclusion that applies to items displayed in public places only seems to apply if they're permanently displayed, so for an exhibition it would not make any difference whether you have to pay to get in or not. A temporary display by a well known painter in the High Street or the Town Hall lobby wouldn't remove his or her rights to not have their work reproduced but I could take and sell as many pictures of the Shard or the London Eye as I like. Your last line is of course very sensible and Chris's comment earlier is very pertinent too. No one really gets rich from model railways (not in the smaller scales anyway) however it pays for a magazine to keep contributors and potential contributors happy. After all if a magazine annoys you you can always offer your next article/contribution/thing to a rival mag. Indeed and reportage and critique is in any case allowed under copyright law. I think what this would really protect a layout builder from would be a magazine taking photos of the layout at an exhibition and using them to illustrate their own feature article about the layout without any involvement from the layout builder. Didn't one of the European magazines once have a bit of a reputation for this? A report on a major exhibition illustrated with single photos of several layouts is probably fair usage (but you probably need to identify the layouts with their builders) but using the same photos in say an article about layout design probably isn't. When ever I take the odd snap (and some arnt bad!) I take great pains to tell or ask the layout owner that they are my property....not that I give a **** but Id not be reyt impressed if they claimed they were theirs,,,, They couldn't. The photos you take are your property but the layout may be their work of art and I don't think the average layout builder would be reyt impressed if your photo of their layout filled the front cover of a magazine. Incidentally to be an artistic work it has to be individual so I don't think Bombardier or SACM could object to your photos of their trains in service being published. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 For the record, I estimated the last layout article I wrote took about 15 hours to finish, that includes not only the text but the taking and processing using CombineZP and some mild Photoshop techniques of a dozen or so photographs (try taking that many on a layout only 6' long). This still works out to an acceptable hourly rate for the work involved, not that payment was important. I was more impressed with myself for managing to supply better images including a cover shot with a 7yr old digital camera that I felt had let me down before, and the editor using it directly as submitted instead of having to re-write parts of it. Anyone who doesn't get a buzz through seeing their work in print obviously doesn't enjoy the hobby as much as me... Here's a bit of a cornundrum- suppose I go onto a forum and ask for others to supply me with photographs for an article. Would the Editor pay me on a "per page" basis and credit the other photographers, or would they also recieve payment, presumably on a pro-rata basis to the size of the image on the page...? Also, if my photographs are used elsewhere in the magazine, such as in "coming next month" or the contents page, have I effectively supplied them for free, if I'm only being paid for the article...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dorset Wanderer Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Model Rail were very prompt with payment, Railway Modeller sent a complimentary copy, set of prints of the photos taken, a CD of the shoot and a cheque on publication day.Plus expenses offered for trip to Devon. Speaking to someone at Wells today, one publication seem not to pay! Won't send material to them then! Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Are you shore about that Chris? Depends how you "sea" it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I didn't even get a free copy of the magazine for an article in Model Trains International a few years ago! That sounds like an oversight rather than a policy and I'm sure Chris Ellis would send you a copy if you asked. I'd guess that most of us who contribute articles to MTI are subscribers anyway but I don't really see it in the same way as the news stand magazines. I've always regarded writing for it as more of a community activity rather in the same way as articles for a society magazine or those written for Carl Arendt's site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted August 12, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 12, 2012 MR were rather apologetic that they couldn't get their regular photographer to my layout within their budget. Not surprising though given the distance involved! I have never had any issues with the "full-size" railway enthusiast mags paying up promptly though don't expect a fortune even for "exclusive rights". At least the UK publishers pay. Not the case among the Aussie mags although admittedly they must have a very much smaller circulation and consequently live very close to the knife-edge of existence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWales Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Having had another article published recently in RM, payment for both article and photos was recieved within ten days of publication, including a complimentary copy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Having had another article published recently in RM, payment for both article and photos was recieved within ten days of publication, including a complimentary copy. When I wrote the Ripper Street article it was a pleasure to deal with Steve and Ian from RM XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWales Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 When I wrote the Ripper Street article it was a pleasure to deal with Steve and Ian from RM XF You're quite right of course! Steve's a true gent and a pleasure to be able to write for him (says he with some more articles up his sleeve! ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I have had a few photos published in various railway magazines and have had payment. There is payment from one awaiting banking at home. Common courtesy is to offer a brief text description of the event/reason for the photo without sending even a thumbnail. This way if the 'news' item fits with what they want to run they will ask you to submit photos to them. There is even a certain magazine that has one of it's section owners that asks if I have any news photos from time to time. One friend has a friend as editor of a mag and he will often get his payment in one lump sum every 6 months. You just need to know how & when you'll get paid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 From my experience of three different Model Railway mags it is extremely variable: Cheque and complementary copy generally arrives within a week of publication both for articles and (unexpectedly) odd photos which were essentially PR for us. Cheque only arrived about 8 weeks after publication (cheque dated the last day of the month the issue was dated) Nothing until I contacted them two months after publication to be told "we don't pay until you invoice us" which I did and then another 6 week wait for a cheque to arrive (dated the last day of the month after the month I sent the invoice) Finally, of those it is the second that is most typical of magazines in other fields. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 As with everything there is good and bad however when I am choosing my model mag(s) there is one which I never look at or purchase! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I didn't even get a free copy of the magazine for an article in Model Trains International a few years ago! Neither did I with my layout of the time and they used most of my words from the exhibition brochure! The cheek of some people! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted August 15, 2012 Author Share Posted August 15, 2012 Not MTI in my case but still no sign of any payment despite the magazne in question claiming it was made before the end of July and still no sign of any complementary copy of the magazine.Not particularly ipressed especially as they are using it on a promotion as well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Just out of interest, have you chaps been asked to write something or written something and then sent it in? I'm never sure how magazines go about collecting articles for publication. (On a related note, this is an area that continues to baffle me about the magazines - there's often the comment of 'we can only publish what we receive', but I've never yet seen any advice as to how to submit something for publication! I wouldn't have a clue how to go about sending in something - printed or electronic, how many words, photos required, what format for the photos, paragraph headings required, what subjects do they want or don't want, etc, etc. The whole thing seems shrouded in mystery. Would it not be beneficial to the hobby in general if it was more widely circulated as to how to contribute to the monthly magazines? After about the 5th or 6th article I wonder if my view might change, but certainly the first few I'd happily do for free for the satisfaction & joy of simply seeing something I produced in print, and I suspect there's plenty of others with the same view) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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