Model Railway Exhibitions ? Time for a change?

[Kenton]

You may find they couldn't hear you, when standing behind a layout it's not easy to hear someone who may be a good few feet away and softly spoken.... snip ...The alternate is I've wanted to see a small layout but the single operator was hogged by a member of the public wanting to know every detail of every item, so the rest of us saw nothing move.

... snip ...See above - when YOU can do it then feel free to criticise... snip ...Tongue firmly in cheek but the sentiments apply.

 

All very fair and valid points which I readily accept from the other side of the track.

 

Though one has to wonder if is all so much hassle and inconvenience, why anyone bothers to exhibit? It is not that it isn't appreciated, though it may be misunderstood or unconsidered as to all the effort that goes in to exhibiting. It is more like some layout operators (the majority) seem to really entertain and inform where as others seem to have forgotten they have gone to all this trouble and somehow are still operating in the club room.

 

As for the rest of us doing it, we might or might not be able to entertain but the first requirement is to have a layout to exhibit - that is one that meets these compulsory high standards of selection, secondly is to be invited, difficult or near impossible if not part of a club or have previously exhibited at one of these minor shows and have been talent spotted by a proactive show manager.

 

Perhaps there is a need to put some layouts on a more professional footing as suggested above. Some of those really big layouts that stand alone at a show and have a track record of value should receive more than just expenses. Especially where it is that layout that is the star attraction and not simply part of the supporting band.

[roundhouse]

One thing we do find tricky is that when people want a chat whilst we are operating. I was in conversation with viewers last week which me and most of my operators are happy to odo and its part of the reason why we do shows. However I did make quite a few operating errors as i am not much good at multitasking!!

 

We will continue to talk to viewers despite thi,s as its what we want to do. One of our operators loves to let kids have a go at driving a train which goes down well with parents. Obviously he only does this where he thinks its suitable to do so.

 

Some layout operators / owners dont want to get involved in talking when operating to avoid affecting the running of the layout, so that might come across a them being unfriendly.

 

Its not easy as reducing the operation of a layout to talk to viewrs doesnt go down well with others and not having a chat also doesnt go down well with some. If we had more operators with us then it would be easier but then our expenses would rise.

 

Ian

 

Ian

[PLD]

Some of those really big layouts that stand alone at a show and have a track record of value should receive more than just expenses. Especially where it is that layout that is the star attraction and not simply part of the supporting band.

 

Put the can opener down please, the worms are fine where they are...

 

I could (but won't) name a couple of layout owners though who in the past have tried to suggest their (average) layout was somehow more important and demanded an 'appearance fee' on top of their normal expenses...

[Xerces Fobe2]

IMO as an exhibitor the key thing is to actively engage with the visitors to the Show say, good morning /afternoon when someone starts looking at your exhibit. We hide a few cats on the layout for the younger visitors to find and that goes down so well . Understand what sort of visitor you are talking to - a seasoned modeller all the way through to the cynic - " I just don't get why grown men play with toy trains!" - always be polite and friendly.

 

There are small number of modellers who exhibit some very fine layouts at Shows but unfortunately regard themselves as some sort of self appointed model railway God and come be quite intimidating to visitors at a Show. What is the point having a great layout if you have poor people skills? - Please stay in the background operate the layout and get a colleague with better interpersonal skills to engage with visitors

 

XF

[Glorious NSE]

Though one has to wonder if is all so much hassle and inconvenience, why anyone bothers to exhibit?

 

Something i've been mulling over recently is indeed why we bother...

 

I've always taken the view that we go to shows to share our hobby with others, not to provide 'entertainment' for the public. We know that what we do will not be understood or liked by all and that's absolutely fine, but the point of what we do is to share our hobby with those folk that are interested. If others like that as well, great. If they don't, well there's another 20+ layouts they can move on to...

 

More and more I feel like you're being judged on whether you meet a set of unrealistic/impossible/conflicting demands though, and in trying to keep up with those it stops being about you sharing your hobby, and becomes something else entirely - and it's a something else that I don't much like.

[edcayton]

I have said this before, and it wasn't popular then, but it requires a degree of arrogance to expect other people to part with their hard-earned cash to look at your creation (the same applies to people who sing and play music, amdram etc and to my career as a teacher), and it should be of no concern to the audience that you have given up your weekend/driven a long way etc.

 

As Kenton said. if you don't like then don't do it!

 

As to operators talking to the public I can see it can be a problem. There are several layouts on the scene where some or all the operators are hidden to the audience and therefore no talking happens. I think that the better layouts have at least one person "front of house" who may be operating or not but can converse. What astounds me is how often this person doesn't know the answer to the question! It's not my layout, I don't know what that loco is built from, don't know where the prototype was/is on one memorable occasion!

 

Although the exhibitors may be amateurs the public have a right to expect professionalism.

 

Ed

[edcayton]

Something i've been mulling over recently is indeed why we bother...

 

I've always taken the view that we go to shows to share our hobby with others, not to provide 'entertainment' for the public. We know that what we do will not be understood or liked by all and that's absolutely fine, but the point of what we do is to share our hobby with those folk that are interested. If others like that as well, great. If they don't, well there's another 20+ layouts they can move on to...

 

More and more I feel like you're being judged on whether you meet a set of unrealistic/impossible/conflicting demands though, and in trying to keep up with those it stops being about you sharing your hobby, and becomes something else entirely - and it's a something else that I don't much like.

 

Agreed and quite understandable. There are "shows" like the expo's and RMWeb days which aren't like that though and if you don't want to deal with the general public then just go to those. Otherwise see my previous post.

 

Ed

[Glorious NSE]

I didn't say that I don't want to deal with the general public, generally speaking it's not the 'general public' that are vocal within the hobby about what they want layouts at shows to do for them...

 

And if the point of a show is to show 'the general public' what the hobby is about, then whizzing your trains round in a circle unrealistically just to artificially 'keep something moving' surely just reinforces the stereotype that this is a one-dimensional hobby for dullards...when in fact it's deep, creative and muti-faceted?

 

it requires a degree of arrogance to expect other people to part with their hard-earned cash to look at your creation

 

I think you're talking rubbish. I don't expect other people to pay to look at what we've done (you could have come and seen it for free last weekend, and there will be opportunities to do that again in future). Taking it out and about does mean that if you did want to see it then it might be a bit more convenient for you though...

[Jamie]

More and more I feel like you're being judged on whether you meet a set of unrealistic/impossible/conflicting demands though, and in trying to keep up with those it stops being about you sharing your hobby, and becomes something else entirely - and it's a something else that I don't much like.

Yes, usually voiced by internet threads like this. Time to get the pinches of salt ready, and go to a show to see what it's really about.

I really can't identify (either as paying punter or as exhibitor) with present comments about arrogance of exhibitors, expectation of people to pay to see your layout, and inference that crowd pleasing should be the priority.

[beast66606]

Although the exhibitors may be amateurs the public have a right to expect professionalism.

 

Really ? - do you go to childrens pantomime performances and berate them if they get a note wrong ? Do you watch league 2 football and demand your money back because a premier player would have scored that goal ?

 

Get real

[Happy Hippo]

There have been a number of comments throughout this thread referring to layouts, that in the eye of the commentator, should not be exhibited.

 

I too have been to exhibitions where quality has not been what I considered a high enough standard, but who am I to be able to make that judgement call?

 

The people behind the layout have put in the time and money to build the layout, and then put themselves out for our enjoyment.

 

It's probably a layout that was built to sit in the corner of the third bedroom, and was never envisaged as something destined for Wigan or Warley.

 

In fact it was never even built with thoughts of going further than the bedroom, so the fact they have had the courage to face the cruel and vicious critics that railway modellers can be and are, needs applauding.(But not too loudly)

 

Regards

 

Richard

[beast66606]

I didn't say that I don't want to deal with the general public, generally speaking it's not the 'general public' that are vocal within the hobby about what they want layouts at shows to do for them...

 

As it's normally me who sits at the front - in the baying crowd - of Widnes I get all of this, doesn't worry me, I'm always happy to chat and the best way to shut the big mouths up is to engage them in conversation and demonstrate their lack of knowledge for everyone else to hear ...

 

And if the point of a show is to show 'the general public' what the hobby is about, then whizzing your trains round in a circle unrealistically just to artificially 'keep something moving' surely just reinforces the stereotype that this is a one-dimensional hobby for dullards...when in fact it's deep, creative and muti-faceted?

 

We don't do that, if a youngster asks for a particular train we may try and run it for them but generally I just say "You will have to wait for it" most are happy, some grumble but we run for the majority not the minority.

 

 

 

But we are wandering away from the original point

[Revolution Mike]

I have said this before, and it wasn't popular then, but it requires a degree of arrogance to expect other people to part with their hard-earned cash to look at your creation (the same applies to people who sing and play music, amdram etc and to my career as a teacher), and it should be of no concern to the audience that you have given up your weekend/driven a long way etc.

 

As Kenton said. if you don't like then don't do it!

 

As to operators talking to the public I can see it can be a problem. There are several layouts on the scene where some or all the operators are hidden to the audience and therefore no talking happens. I think that the better layouts have at least one person "front of house" who may be operating or not but can converse. What astounds me is how often this person doesn't know the answer to the question! It's not my layout, I don't know what that loco is built from, don't know where the prototype was/is on one memorable occasion!

 

Although the exhibitors may be amateurs the public have a right to expect professionalism.

 

If you want professionalism are you prepared to pay for it? I doubt any layout owner/operator goes out of his way to do things in anything other than their best effort (which doesn't mean all will reach the same standard!).

 

As others have said I think some in the modelling community forget how much time (and money) goes into exhibiting at shows. Of course it should be of concern to the public that people are giving up their time - if we don't then nothing gets exhibited and we are all the poorer for it. If it looks like we are enjoying ourselves behind the layout, well it would be pretty pointless if we weren't! That doesn't mean we are trying to exclude the public, but generally the layout operators will be groups of friends enjoying their hobby.

[edcayton]

- in the baying crowd - doesn't worry me, I'm always happy to shut the big mouths up is to demonstrate their lack of knowledge for everyone else to hear ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said

 

Ed

[beast66606]

Like I said

 

Ed

 

A point, well made - but it passed me by (I'm obviously not professional enough to understand), perhaps rather than stirring things up we can stick to the original point.

[roundhouse]

There have been a number of comments throughout this thread referring to layouts, that in the eye of the commentator, should not be exhibited.

 

I too have been to exhibitions where quality has not been what I considered a high enough standard, but who am I to be able to make that judgement call?

 

The people behind the layout have put in the time and money to build the layout, and then put themselves out for our enjoyment.

 

It's probably a layout that was built to sit in the corner of the third bedroom, and was never envisaged as something destined for Wigan or Warley.

 

In fact it was never even built with thoughts of going further than the bedroom, so the fact they have had the courage to face the cruel and vicious critics that railway modellers can be and are, needs applauding.(But not too loudly)

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

I agree. There are many shows we have exhibited at and the more 'basic' layouts with trains wizzing round have had far bigger crowds round them than the well presented finescale layout which also has trains moving on it.

 

Really depends on the type of peopoe that visit the show. Many shows are attended by families with a passing interest with the minority being full on modellers. I have had people watching the layout and they dont really pick up on the detail on the layout but the fact that why does the tack and back scene have joints in it!!

 

My first exhibition layout didnt have lights - I couldnt afford them as was still at school but as I started doingm ore and more shows anf my skill and income increased, lights were added and eventually improved as time went by.

If I had been told that I could not exhibit my layout without lights then I may well have given up trying ot exhibit and not be were I am now.. and I am still trying to improve presentation whilst still being able to fit the layout and operators into our own vehicles thus avoiding van hire.

 

Its great that there are large layouts out there with wonderful lighting and presentation (which need van hire etc) as it does give me the inspiration to try to keep improving things.

 

Ian

[DLT]

It's not my layout, I don't know what that loco is built from, don't know where the prototype was/is on one memorable occasion!

Ed

He was probably a member of the club, drafted in to "mind the shop" while the owner has his lunch

We usually draft in a local operator to help out; we can't all be behind the layout all the time.

Dave.

[Kenton]

IMO as an exhibitor the key thing is to actively engage with the visitors to the Show say, good morning /afternoon when someone starts looking at your exhibit.

 

Anyone seen John Rodway's "Comment" in September RM - perhaps a role for the show's organisers rather than the layout operator's - especially where a host club is filling the venue with its own layouts and perhaps trying to pull new members.

[iL Dottore]

Interesting how polarising this thread has become. Colin Mcleod in an earlier post agreed that theatre is a good comparison and I'd like to expand on this analogy.

 

Firstly, whether amatuer or professional theatre the aim is to put on the best show possible, to the highest possible standard according to the abilities of the participants. I've seen professional theatre that was dire and amdram that would not have been out of place in a West End theatre. I see no reason that model railway shows should not adopt this ethos. To give a concrete example I saw one layout that was undeniably full of superb modelling but poorly lit, no engagement with the public and no railway activity (yes, I know that on the real railway trains don't whizz by every 30 seconds, but by engaging the audience, during quiet periods a layout representative could hold their attention by saying something along the lines of "it's 10am and with the next scheduled arrival not due for a while the staff catch up with the paperwork"). At this same exhibition, I saw a layout that was built to the highest possible standard according to the ability of the participant; it was a circular layout using RTR stock and RTP buildings and was built and operated by a young man with (I think it was) Down's Syndrome. The obvious pride and satisfaction this young lad had in his achievement made this, by serious railway modelling standards an unremarkable layout, most enchanting and I think far better exemplified the ethos I am trying promote than the "serious modelling" layout mentioned above.

 

Secondly, keeping the public entertained does not mean having to operate a non stop railway service, it means engaging the public with your layout and what your layout represents (whether in terms of the prototype, how it was constructed, why is it being operated the way it is, etc.). Returning to the theatre: Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot" is quite a challenging piece of theatre with heavy philosophical overtones and themes, I've seen one production that was incredibly dire, the second production that I saw (with Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellan, Simon Callow and Ronald Pickup) engaged the audience from curtain up - and it was so good the time just whizzed past. The difference? production values and how the participants engaged the audience.

 

Thirdly, just as theatre categorises itself by theme (murder mystery, musical, farce, comedy, etc) perhaps layouts should be classified by themes - "off the shelf" "newbies", "under construction" and "established layouts" and then group them together in a show by theme rather than by scale, gauge or build standard.

 

Fourthly, disregard the public at your peril. The Basel Stadtheater has put on many productions where the director was being "innovative" and "daring" (theatre code for being a pretentious tw*t); productions where the audience walked out halfway through, where the second night saw an audience of 60 in a 250 seat auditorium. The only reason the Basel Stadtheater survives (IMO) is because it is heavily subsidised by Basel Stadt. For everyone else (i.e. non subsidised theatre groups) it's either "bums on seats" or go out of business. I would argue that Model railway Shows (most certainly unlikely to be ever subsidised [heavily or otherwise]) have to get "bodies through turnstiles" otherwise no gate revenue = no show next time.

 

Finally, I perfectly understand the various factors and stresses that exhibiting a layout entails, but surely, if an individual or club has made all that effort, committment and investment of time and money, is it really too much to expect that fraction extra that lifts a layout from "amatuer" to "professional" (it's certainly do-able, from what I've seen at Warley, the Dutch certainly manage to always put on a very professional show)

[beast66606]

He was probably a member of the club, drafted in to "mind the shop" while the owner has his lunch

We usually draft in a local operator to help out; we can't all be behind the layout all the time.

Dave.

 

Absolutely appalling, fancy having someone help on your layout who is not 100% up to speed with every aspect of it's operation, history, construction and the same for every single item of rolling stock or scenery - what is the world coming to these days, one day its amateurs running model railway layouts, the next it will be the ravens leaving the tower.

 

If someone asks a question of any of our team and they don't know the answer they always say "come back in an hour when xyz is back from his break* and he will tell you chapter and verse"

 

*yes, we do occasionally have them, I know true professionals never do such a thing and I always get comments from the public saying "Why are you eating that sandwich when I've paid £1.70 to get in here, I demand you go and run trains on your layout right now"

[Glorious NSE]

I am not an actor, I don't particularly want to be an actor, I didn't take up this hobby to kick off my acting career, and I don't particularly enjoy being in the public eye.

 

I am a railway modeller, I do want to be one of them (well I try), I do like talking to people who take an interest in what we're doing and I love sharing our take on this fine hobby with other people that take an interest. If folk inside the hobby like what we do, great. If folk outside the hobby get an idea of what we do, even better.

 

If I wanted to see actors then i'd go to the theatre or a cinema...

 

(Note - i'm not saying ignore your audience and don't run trains...)

[beast66606]

Finally, I perfectly understand the various factors and stresses that exhibiting a layout entails, but surely, if an individual or club has made all that effort, committment and investment of time and money, is it really too much to expect that fraction extra that lifts a layout from "amatuer" to "professional" (it's certainly do-able, from what I've seen at Warley, the Dutch certainly manage to always put on a very professional show)

 

But that comes down to what an individual perceives as the "extra" - to the public it might be running a Virgin train (one of our most frequent requests) to a modeller it might be running a nicely detailed train, for a professional railman it might be stopping the train at the right place at a red signal or working the signals correctly or giving time for couplings to be joined etc.

 

When exhibiting people generally just do their best, if it's not good enough then the door is always open for others to step in.

 

 

Back to the original point.

 

I think the market is saturated, personally I would prefer fewer small local shows (note the word fewer not none), meaning the public only have a few shows to choose from, and therefore they will (hopefully) (be more likely to) attend them, boosting the coffers of those that run the shows.

I think too many shows are run simply to bring money into a club and the quality of the show doesn't matter, it's just about having a few (often poor) layouts and charging admission - even the public can be put off if there's nothing much to see, and once put off they will be off for a long time, as they don't have the natural interest us modellers have to say "I'll try again"

 

As for giving people a chance when learning, a club could choose to have one or two of these at their show, personally my view is if it isn't good enough, then it isn't good enough - sorry.

Liverpool don't let me play for them, I'm not good enough, despite several members of my family wanting to see me at Anfield, it's not going to happen as the rest of the crowd wouldn't like it, maybe that's harsh but that's life. It didn't put me off playing football as I accepted that I wasn't good enough, I didn't get despondent just because I didn't win a European Cup winners medal in my first game, I tried to play better but accepted that I simply wasn't going to make it to any form of the top flight, but there again I could write software for hospitals which was involved in saving hundreds, maybe thousands, of peoples lives (I'm still waiting for Prince Phillip to thank me after his recent visit to ARI) - and not many footballers could do that - put it in our context, someone may not be the best scenery maker in the world but they may be superb at weathering, or detailing locos, or laying track or ... building and showing a layout is a team effort (generally) and the sum of the whole is bigger than the individual parts.

 

 

If I'd paid to get into a show with 15 layouts and 5 of them were "beginners" then I would be unhappy, if the same show was advertised with 10 layouts and there were 15, 5 being beginners then that would be different, I could choose to attend based on the 10, rather than being deceived by a claim of 15. To me a layout "under construction" is not a layout, it's a demo

 

That's my 0.02p on the original subject.

[Xerces Fobe2]

I am not an actor, I don't particularly want to be an actor, I didn't take up this hobby to kick off my acting career, and I don't particularly enjoy being in the public eye.

 

I am a railway modeller, I do want to be one of them (well I try), I do like talking to people who take an interest in what we're doing and I love sharing our take on this fine hobby with other people that take an interest. If folk inside the hobby like what we do, great. If folk outside the hobby get an idea of what we do, even better.

 

If I wanted to see actors then i'd go to the theatre or a cinema...

 

(Note - i'm not saying ignore your audience and don't run trains...)

 

Totally agree I am not suggesting Equity Membership for all modellers however there some a small number of very pompous modellers and representatives of model rail journals that grace our exhibitions and maybe they should consider a roll in a situation drama!

 

XF

[PLD]

We're way off the original topic now...

 

I think some are confusing several aspects - layouts of different standards ('finescale' vs 'beginners'); entertainment value; audience interaction; and presentation. All are important but they not directly dependent nor mutually exclusive...

 

There is absolutely a place in every show for the 'achievable' as well as the 'aspirational' layout. I don't however believe that where a layout sits on that scale has any bearing on how it should be presented or is a valid excuse for not interacting with the audience. Even if the layout is entirely stocked with RTR and superquick buildings, that's no excuse for not putting a little thought into lighting it and making it look neat and tidy, and at all levels you are almost certain to be asked how/what/why so it does help if at least one person is available (and willing) at all times who can answer those questions [we would never leave the layout solely in the hands of someone unfamiliar with it - yes we do have guest operators from time to time but team them up with an experienced body...]

[Joseph_Pestell]

I was involved in Exhibiton Management for several years with what was, at the time, considered to be a large exhibition. Even back then, 25 years ago, we were running into problems over venues and catering costs. Cutbacks in local authority funding and the current recession clearly add greatly to these difficulties.

 

Like all business, it is not just about profit but about cashflow. My (simple) formula was that the trade exhibitors paid stand fees (in advance) which covered the premises costs and advertising. Money taken at the door covered exhibitors expenses and profit.

 

You do have to look after your trade exhibitors well. Above all, you have to make sure that there are not too many of the same type so that they can all have decent takings. I have been to several "local" shows in recent years where this balance was simply not there. Because of travel and staffing costs, a retailer would much rather pay a high stand fee but know that there will not be too much competition.

 

There has been a tendency in reent years to shows that are just too big - and therefore expensive to put on. Anything much more than 20 layouts seems to me to be counterproductive. Even for someone like me who will (if wife suitably occupied elsewhere) spend a whole day at a show, how much time can I spend looking at each and still have time to spend money with the traders?

 

In many ways, the best solution is specialist shows: e.g. all Continental, all N gauge, etc.

 

Having said all that, I think the OP has an excellent idea in suggesting an umbrella organisation. In France, the existence of FFMF is a great aid to smaller clubs. It also favours the organisation of a "railway modelling week" where all clubs promote the hobby locally with displays at venues such as shopping malls.