Big James Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Another analogy to layouts not having very much going on us the new batman film. U don't c the title character till about 45 mins into the film but it's the characters and action going on around it that make it a gd film and keeps u watching. The many layouts I stand there watching for a while are the ones with out trains whizzing about. I've seen plenty of layouts at exibitions with people standing at the front explaining a particular shunting maneuver and they've taken the time to explain it 2 my nephew who's five. Big James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 I think we are disappearing down a rabbit hole on this thread so to get us focused - Please can we have3 short answers to the following questions- How do we make exhibitions more appealing to the public ? How do we ensure that we exhibitions make a profit, can afford pay exhibitors expenses and last but least, support quality traders that give the public what they want and at least cover their costs? If you could change one thing about a model railway exhibition, what would it be? Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 To pick up on that point and PLD's, to my mind the best layouts are those where the train movements are displayed (either on flip cards or a screen, it doesn't matter) and this includes the taking a break/crew change info, but I suspect this is boring and restrictive for the operators, and it is awful when all goes out of synch. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Sorry Nigel, posted the above after your plea. questions 1 and 2-don't really know, not even sure if we should. question 3- easy, make more like RMWeb member's days-I don't think you will get any argument from anyone who has been to one. Therefore in my view the answer to the OP question is yes. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted August 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 22, 2012 As XF has pointed out (quite rightly) the exhibitor should not be subsidizing the event Why not? Why does a railway modeller attending an exhibition with a layout expect to have their expenses covered? Surely exhibiting is part of the hobby and can be a justifyable expense? Do other modelling areas (boats, aeroplanes, military etc) offer expenses to exhibitors? If Manchester United goes to play Arsenal, does Arsenal pay United's hotel bill? If my local Sunday league team goes to a neighbouring town to play, do they claim travelling expenses from the host club? If a Morris Dancing troup get invited to a folk festival at the other end of the country do they claim expenses or just accept it as part of the hobby? Surely claiming expenses should be an added bonus not an essencial pre-requisit? Happy modelling. Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 question 3- easy, make more like RMWeb member's days-I don't think you will get any argument from anyone who has been to one. Therefore in my view the answer to the OP question is yes. To do that the onus isn't just on exhibitors to be friendly and interactive but on the visiting public to behave with courtesy, have a smile on their face and don't be a pain in the butt to exhibitors. That's one of the key differences in the Members' Days; everyone just gets on with and enjoys it for what it is and relaxes (something that was also evident at Midland Railex at the weekend). Many topflight exhibitions seem to be often populated with a row of punters with complete lack of enthusiasm, emotion or even interest leaning on a barrier (or shoving through ) expecting to be entertained. It's a two-way street and a major exhibition may just not be the place for relaxed chatting and camaraderie but it can happen. Maybe exhibits should have "talk to us, we don't bite" or "please don't interrupt us" signs? At least the exhibition go-er would know where they stand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted August 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 22, 2012 Why does a railway modeller attending an exhibition with a layout expect to have their expenses covered? Surely exhibiting is part of the hobby and can be a justifyable expense? I really can't answer that one without using words that would get me banned from the forum - our 7mm Narrow Gauge layout will be at York next Easter for a 3 day show and will require van hire for 5 days plus fuel plus hotel accommodation for operators plus evening meals etc etc etc. If you think I'm paying for all that myself you don't live in the real world Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 In answer to the three points: 1. As an exhibition manager first of all know exactly who your particular "public" are and cater accordingly for their needs/desires 2. As the answer to 1 and make sure you innovate with the delivery of the show, different ideas, presentation each year to keep it fresh. 3. One thing? I think thats a hard ask, theres a whole raft of things I'd change, but if I would name one, ban tweed. Or its alter ego, pomposity, its what gives us a bad name. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 To do that the onus isn't just on exhibitors to be friendly and interactive but on the visiting public to behave with courtesy, have a smile on their face and don't be a pain in the butt to exhibitors. That's one of the key differences in the Members' Days; everyone just gets on with and enjoys it for what it is and relaxes (something that was also evident at Midland Railex at the weekend). Many topflight exhibitions seem to be often populated with a row of punters with complete lack of enthusiasm, emotion or even interest leaning on a barrier (or shoving through ) expecting to be entertained. It's a two-way street and a major exhibition may just not be the place for relaxed chatting and camaraderie but it can happen. Maybe exhibits should have "talk to us, we don't bite" or "please don't interrupt us" signs? At least the exhibition go-er would know where they stand. I think we did, didn't we? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Why not? Why does a railway modeller attending an exhibition with a layout expect to have their expenses covered? Surely exhibiting is part of the hobby and can be a justifyable expense? Do other modelling areas (boats, aeroplanes, military etc) offer expenses to exhibitors? If Manchester United goes to play Arsenal, does Arsenal pay United's hotel bill? If my local Sunday league team goes to a neighbouring town to play, do they claim travelling expenses from the host club? If a Morris Dancing troup get invited to a folk festival at the other end of the country do they claim expenses or just accept it as part of the hobby? Surely claiming expenses should be an added bonus not an essencial pre-requisit? Happy modelling. Steven B. If I had a layout that goes in the back of the car I'd happily do local shows for free. I think most private individuals and clubs would baulk at spending on van hire and fuel to take a large layout to a show. As for meeting the cost of say 6 overnighters for 2 - 3 nights in the case of a large layout, well lets not go there. Your idea is laudable to some extent, but your arguments somewhat flawed, and the outcome would be more than likely only small local based layouts at a show. No more Dewsbury Midlands, Widnes Vineyards, et al or at least if they were, they would be in very short supply. Im not sure I'd bother going to a show like that as a visitor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 How do we make exhibitions more appealing to the public ? No easy, standard answer to that one... Each show is different (different audience with different tastes and facing different local competition). For many I suspect its as much about local awareness that there is a show on at all as it is about it being appealing to the public... How do we ensure that we exhibitions make a profit, can afford pay exhibitors expenses and last but least, support quality traders that give the public what they want and at least cover their costs? Simple - Planning. Experience should give you a reasonable indication of likely attendance, while other income (trade, etc) and expenditure (venue, publicity) should be known to within a reasonable magin, so a decent Exhibition Manager should be able to work out what budget he has to play with for layout costs at a given entry fee and assuming a degree of competence stay within that... [unlike one EM I had to deal with as treasurer who wouldn't share any information and at last minute presented a set of figures requiring a record attendance to break even!] If you could change one thing about a model railway exhibition, what would it be? Again every show is different and has it's own issues, plus it also depends whether you are speaking as an exhibitor or visitor... As an exhibitor it is generally the 'hospitality' factors that could be improved (indifferent accomodation, stingy tea/coffee allowance, invisible EMs who lock themself away in an office for the weekend out of reach). As a visitor, it is usually the balance/variety of the show (mix of layout scales/locations/eras/sizes/styles, mix of trade stands etc). Why does a railway modeller attending an exhibition with a layout expect to have their expenses covered? Surely exhibiting is part of the hobby and can be a justifyable expense? Do other modelling areas (boats, aeroplanes, military etc) offer expenses to exhibitors? If Manchester United goes to play Arsenal, does Arsenal pay United's hotel bill? If my local Sunday league team goes to a neighbouring town to play, do they claim travelling expenses from the host club? If a Morris Dancing troup get invited to a folk festival at the other end of the country do they claim expenses or just accept it as part of the hobby? Surely claiming expenses should be an added bonus not an essencial pre-requisit? But... In other hobbies it is indeed often done on a 'knock-for-knock' basis but they work differently to the Model Railway show circuit. We tend to invite exhibitors (mostly) on merit and not just conditional on recieving a reciprocal invitation... Manchester United take 11 men to Arsenal and Arsenal must take 11 men to Manchester United the same season (each covering their own bill). That doesn't apply to model railway shows. Hull MRS may take a four-man layout to Manchester Show, but that doesn't necessarily mean Manchester MRS automatically take a layout to Hull Show, and if they do there's no certainty it will be a four-man team. Also the 'independent' modeller not associated with any club loses out as he would have to pay his own way for both Hull and Manchester! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2012 I think we are disappearing down a rabbit hole on this thread so to get us focused - Please can we have3 short answers to the following questions- How do we make exhibitions more appealing to the public ? How do we ensure that we exhibitions make a profit, can afford pay exhibitors expenses and last but least, support quality traders that give the public what they want and at least cover their costs? If you could change one thing about a model railway exhibition, what would it be? Nigel 1. I think it has been answered (variously) but I think the key is focus on what you, the organiser, want to do and to achieve and do it well having decided what your target audience is/audiences are; yes, a good show with the right organisation can target more than one audience group. 2. Target your trade to match your target audience/audiences. I thought you did it quite well at Knowle Hill and that was a very small show by any standard but what I could (and did) buy matched my expectation of the sort of show I was going to. It isn't necessarily about 'quality' traders (whatever that means?) it's about matching the market, the market you are after satisfying. 3. One thing - 'accessibility' to the exhibitors in much the way Andy has already described. I've probably most enjoyed layouts at shows when it's been possible to have a good chat with the operating team, to talk about the layout or what it represents and how it is worked - including how the hidden sidings element works. It's a matter of involvement and invitation - at one extreme it's 'drive Thomas' on a tail chaser, at the other it's shunting a US logging layout as daughter did at a show last year. Welcome, invite and involve the punters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted August 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2012 If there were no expenses then we would exhibit at far less shows than we do. I suspect the same goes for many other exhibitors who travel any distance to exhibit at shows on a regular basis. That wuold then reduce the number of layouts available to exhibtion organisers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 How do we make exhibitions more appealing to the public ? I'd be more interested in making exhibitions more attractive to model railway enthusiasts. As a member of 'the public' but with no interest in watching tennis there is nothing that could make it more appealing to pay to watch Murray. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Do other modelling areas (boats, aeroplanes, military etc) offer expenses to exhibitors? If Manchester United goes to play Arsenal, does Arsenal pay United's hotel bill? If my local Sunday league team goes to a neighbouring town to play, do they claim travelling expenses from the host club? If a Morris Dancing troup get invited to a folk festival at the other end of the country do they claim expenses or just accept it as part of the hobby? In professional football (Man U and Arsenal) it depends on the competition - in some the 'away' team does get a cut of the home teams taking so the 'fans' (visiting public) pay in ticket sales (just like a model railway exhibition). In others, like leagues, the league sponsor pay the clubs to field a team and complete the fixture list, and the players are paid a wage by the club to play. Plus the clubs also get a cut of the TV rights. Even in senior amatuer footie the players get appearance/boot money. So yep someone does effectively pay for their hotel and travelling expenses. With Morris men usually the pub where they perform pays for the visit and the dancers themselves get 'expenses' in the way of free beers. The punters (the public who visit the pub to see the dancers) have effectively paid (the troups expenses) through the beer they buy from the pub. Festivals usually pay for bands/troups to appear and charge admission to the public (just like a model railway exhibition). G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted August 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2012 Morris "troups" are called Sides. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2012 How do we make exhibitions more appealing to the public ? How do we ensure that we exhibitions make a profit, can afford pay exhibitors expenses and last but least, support quality traders that give the public what they want and at least cover their costs? Fundamentally make sure that you have a reasonably robust budget with potential leeway for lower than planned/expected income and/or higher than planned expenditure. For our income I think that I worked out a break even point somewhere around 25% down on last year's numbers through the door and made sure that I had something a decent contingency on exhibitors expenses given that we are often asking for expense estimates several months prior to a show and in the intervening period fuel/travel costs could well have risen. If you could change one thing about a model railway exhibition, what would it be? I would try to have less shows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iL Dottore Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 ...I don't however believe that where a layout sits on that scale has any bearing on how it should be presented or is a valid excuse for not interacting with the audience. Even if the layout is entirely stocked with RTR and superquick buildings, that's no excuse for not putting a little thought into lighting it and making it look neat and tidy, and at all levels you are almost certain to be asked how/what/why so it does help if at least one person is available (and willing) at all times who can answer those questions [we would never leave the layout solely in the hands of someone unfamiliar with it - yes we do have guest operators from time to time but team them up with an experienced body...] Well said PLD, my thoughts in a nutshell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
definate maybe Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I think we are disappearing down a rabbit hole on this thread so to get us focused - Please can we have3 short answers to the following questions- How do we make exhibitions more appealing to the public ? How do we ensure that we exhibitions make a profit, can afford pay exhibitors expenses and last but least, support quality traders that give the public what they want and at least cover their costs? If you could change one thing about a model railway exhibition, what would it be? Nigel The problem I see with point 1 is that the public are a very varied crowd. If you push it more towards a 'toy fair' type exhibition you may well see a new set of faces but are unlikely to get modellers and enthusiasts and are therefore hoping that your event is the most popular 'lets do something new this weeked' event in the area. If you push for more serious layouts then you wont get the public who see our hobby as anoraky. If you go down the middle then I think it all depends how you market it. As already said on these pages some feel let down by seeing adverts for 15 layouts when only 3 or 4 are off a serious quailty, another 5 or 6 are buy and plonk and the remainder are somewhere between works in progress or diaramas. Even the layouts built by clubs as 'eye catchers' can range between the 'bright lights madness' with plenty to catch the eye and no realism through to the painstaking detail of building an exact replica of a station in 1905 from stratch but which has 4 trains a days - and running will be kept as per the prototype. The hobby is way too varied to have an easy answer to the question and I am just grateful to those of you who do give up time and energy to put on the shows 2 - as alluded to in previous post - something I definately can not give an answer to. 3 - wont help market or get more people in and its only a small thing but banning rucksacks and ignorant people. Banning rucksacks - with limited space to walk around why do so many people need to have bigger rucksacks than what the army uses on deployment Ignorant people - I am 6ft3 and so I am well aware that at popular layouts me standing in the middle is going to restrict the views of others. I try to either kneel down (which also helps me to take in the layout) or move to an end so it can be seen by others. If a child wants to see the layout and there is limited space I will always shuffle backwards so they can fit in and have a decent view which in no way will affect my experience. I know certain other attendees have other traits which can annoy/ruin the day. If your not a modeller and fancy a 'different' day out and decide upon the local model exhibiton, which doesnt look too expensive so might as well give it a try, then getting justled, smacked around the face by a massive bag or being unable to see anything through to the guy whose taking up all the room is hardly going to make you want to revisit next year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I would try to have less shows. Or have them better distributed through the calendar. It is an annoying bugbear that there are often as many as 5 different shows to choose from on one weekend then many weeks when there isn't a single show to go to. Given that there are only a finite number of really good layouts to go round and good traders are being even more selective, there really should be some more coordination. Perhaps that is one, or the first thing, a national organisation should concentrate on - an evenish spread of shows across the country and across the year. On the subject of trying to get more people to attend shows - I hope not. At far too many shows too little attention is paid to space for the punter already. A factor perhaps of trying to cram too many layouts or too much trade in the same small or reduced space. Even the top (IMO) shows such as Railex, EM South and Scale4um suffer this problem which is self-defeating. You cannot get to see the layout or attract attention of the operator/trader and of course it brings back all the complaints about rucksacks, barriers, kids, overheating, odours, etc. Again I come back to raising the price as a possible tool to make the experience more comfortable and better funded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Bigger shows surely have more to offer in that even if you do not like some of the exhibits (some layouts still have steam engines on them, how old fashioned is that) the visitor should still have plenty to see that they do like. The odd poor exhibit or the one where the operator has gone for lunch will not stand out. Organisers can be more forthcoming by delivering beverages to the layouts for the operators. Most operators would rather operate and drink tea rather than have to choose one or the other. Talking to the visitors does rather dry the throat. If there are sufficient operators having a 'Captain peacock' out the front does wonders for allowing the rest to be able to concentrate on operating. Operating in an exhibition scenario is a skill, and perhaps more emphasis should be given to learning this skill. It involves concentration, professionalism, time management, prioritisation and people skills. Clubs should concentrate on it a little more, it is often assumed that any one can do all of this naturally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted August 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2012 In professional football (Man U and Arsenal) it depends on the competition - in some the 'away' team does get a cut of the home teams taking so the 'fans' (visiting public) pay in ticket sales (just like a model railway exhibition). In others, like leagues, the league sponsor pay the clubs to field a team and complete the fixture list, and the players are paid a wage by the club to play. Plus the clubs also get a cut of the TV rights. Even in senior amatuer footie the players get appearance/boot money. So yep someone does effectively pay for their hotel and travelling expenses. You forgot to add that the Man Utd and Arsenal teams would have to buy their own kit and footballs, and then spend a good while before the game ensuring the kit was neat and the football worked correctly, then on the match day they would have to take a days holiday from their normal job (being the subject of much press speculation) and travel long distances, at their own expense, just to play - after the game they would then have to pack the goals away, put the ball in the car and clear the litter from the stadium (which would be rented from the local authority of course), and wash their kits, late at night, before returning to work the next day. Saying that, I'm looking forward to my next sponsorship deal (football does have some good points we should adopt) - if Agent Provocateur need a male model to help the ladies, I'm free during November. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 ...... I also think layouts should be operated with the same care and attention that goes into building and presenting them. Personally, I find it a real turn-off when a bored operator is obviously just turning a knob left and right, thereby completely destroying the illusion - otherwise so carefully constructed. Ultimately, the Exhibition Club/Promotor and the Layout Exhibitor are in it together to give a presentation of our hobby - be it exemplar, attainable, entertainment or whatever is understood. The one thing it is not, is an excuse simply to play as one would in one's own front living room - which occasionally (fortunately) one sees, both in operation, and in private conversation. Personally for me, since the demise of so many model shops, I look to exhibitions and their trade stands to fill that gap - enabling me to browse and buy all the specialist little tools and bits-and pieces that one used to get from he sadly-missed shop. If anything, this need (and balance) has become more important, not less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 It has to be said that Warners, who have a dedicated exhibitions section (and who have been slated on here in the past before the "merger" ) do steer a pretty good course between the general public and enthusiast market. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted August 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2012 If there are sufficient operators having a 'Captain peacock' out the front does wonders for allowing the rest to be able to concentrate on operating. Horrible picture in my head now of Beast as Captain Peacock... Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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