Geoff Cook Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 For the future this is all very nice and will not bother those folk that can wait to get there required Exactoscale products from C&L, but it does not solve the immediate problem if you require the Exactoscale components now and not in a few months time I am tasked with doing the trackwork for Black Country Blues the RMweb Challenge layout which has to be complete by January 2013, the trackwork for this, apart from the rails and a few other bits all being done with Exactoscale components The components for all the point and crossing work was obtained from Exactoscale at the Railex Aylesbury exhibition, leaving just the plain running track ( Exactoscale Fastrack ) plus anything that I was short of to obtain at a later date Having spent a week trying to place an order by phone I decided to send order with cheque on the 20th August, which appears to have never arrived I did get them on the phone once to change the details of the order before it arrived But being the cheque and order never arrived, can I now get through on the phone to advise of my card details No 5 weeks after originally deciding to order still Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted September 23, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 23, 2012 it does not solve the immediate problem if you require the Exactoscale components now and not in a few months time Hi Geoff, Update here: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2059&forum_id=1&jump_to=13732#p13732 regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C&L Owner Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Geoff (and other Exactoscale customers with outstanding orders) I do understand the frustration that you must be feeling. The only crumbs of comfort that I can offer are these thoughts: 1) Exactoscale would not have survived if some action had not been taken. Sooner or later it would have gone to the wall, as a business can't survive if it does not complete customers orders and make sufficient sales. 2) The agreed solution that C&L take over responsibility does offer the prospect of a vastly improved level of service, which will eventually fall into line with our current aim of next day dispatch, which most C&L customers have being used to receiving for a good number of years, under both Brian and my ownership. 3) The timescale of 5th November can't be brought forward due to long standing commitments and the vast amount of work required to enable this to work successfully. We have to collect the stock from essex, do a full stock take, and photograph and write up details for each product before they can appear on our web site, and therefore be available for ordering and next day dispatch. If we start taking orders before we are ready, we will end up giving a service that is no better than some Exactoscale customers have been receiving. Whilst that problem was basically down to Len's health, and could not be avoided, if we mess up by trying to run before we can walk, we would rightly get slated. We have promised a far better service and we will provide that, but unfortunately not until after 5th November. As an example of the tasks before us, it took one member of staff a full six working days to take all of the photos of the 1400+ products that C&L sell, in readiness for displaying on our new web site. When you have to open a packet for almost every item, it takes a lot of time! It is unfortunate that people like Geoff have been caught in the middle of this. However, I am sure that he and others like him would rather know that their orders will be dealt with as soon as possible after 5th November (and before if we can possibly get everything ready any earlier), when the alternative was to probably wait another 3 to 6 months, or never receive anything at all, even if you had paid for it, should Exactoscale have gone to the wall. Sometimes life deals people difficulties and problems, through no fault of their own. Exactoscale customers are not to blame and neither is Len. He has made himself ill by trying to do everything and has ended up not being able to do anything as a result. Andrew has taken what I believe is a sensible course of asking someone else who can help, to step in. We will do our part by working all the hours we can to rectify a difficult situation. However, we can't make the day any longer than 24 hours, so we are all going to have to be patient, difficult though that is, especially when peoples livelihoods depend upon us getting this right. There is a lot hanging on this takeover, not just the C&L (and my) reputation. There is also a large financial commitment with new staff having been taken on at C&L and leases signed for additional premises and storage etc. I will not risk C&L being pulled over the edge by us starting selling Exactoscale products before we are ready and therefore making a mess of it. One last point, I have heard rumours that neither Exactoscale nor C&L will be at Scaleforum this weekend. That is NOT correct. C&L will have their normal stand at Leatherhead, but will not have any Exactoscale products to hand, nor will we be able to supply any orders previously given to Exactoscale, whilst at the show. However, we will be able to record details of previous orders given to Exactoscale, so that we can check that we are aware of the order, once we receive the Exactoscale order book in a week or so. Better to have it recorded twice than not at all! We will also be happy to take new 'provisional' orders for Exactoscale products. This will be on the understanding that these new orders will be dealt with after 5th November and after we have dealt with the outstanding Exactosclae orders. The point of recording new orders will be to enable us to help predict future sales, so that we can hopefully re-order products in time to prevent us running out of stock during what we hope to be a busy November. If you are not attending the Scaleforum show, but wish to place either an advanced order or confirm the details of an existing Exactoscale order, please do so by emailing me at sales@finescale.org.uk rather than listing the details on this thread. I will not reply at present, but will sotre the messages until we are in a posiiton to compare/action them in early November. Thank you for your understanding. Pete Llewellyn Owner of C&L Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Wizard/51L/MSE will be at Scaleforum - Andrew may have some (declining temporarily) Exactoscale stock on his stand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 This is an excellent development; C and L have always provided a very reliable a quick postal service to France. Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Do you think it would be possible to re direct, or at least put a notice on the Exactoscale website stating that C&L are now the distributors of their products. I think it would be in the interests of all parties as not everyone will be aware of this development. Thanks Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 24, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2012 Do you think it would be possible to re direct, or at least put a notice on the Exactoscale website stating that C&L are now the distributors of their products. I think it would be in the interests of all parties as not everyone will be aware of this development. I suggested as much on the Scalefour forum, but I got a ticking off from Andrew Jukes for interfering in matters which are none of my business. The truth seems to be that Andrew has lost access to the web site, and can't actually change it. Or at least, not easily. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cook Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I suggested as much on the Scalefour forum, but I got a ticking off from Andrew Jukes for interfering in matters which are none of my business. The truth seems to be that Andrew has lost access to the web site, and can't actually change it. Or at least, not easily. Martin. I'm not the only one that gets told off then, along time ago I had the same response from Andrew Jukes because I made a comment on the Scale four email group, about Exactoscales ability or not to answer email messages about orders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2012 I'm not the only one that gets told off then, along time ago I had the same response from Andrew Jukes because I made a comment on the Scale four email group, about Exactoscales ability or not to answer email messages about orders Andrew Jukes should have treated you (and Martin) as customers (potential or actual, doesn't matter), as well as interested and sympathetic fellow modellers. I know of someone else who received the impression that his helpful suggestions were mere irritations, rather than an attempt at a positive, constructive input to help Exactoscale. The quality of the Exactoscale product is undeniable, in my view, so good luck to Pete and his team at C&L for the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 24, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2012 The quality of the Exactoscale product is undeniable, in my view, so good luck to Pete and his team at C&L for the future. There is an update about the situation on the C&L website today: http://www.finescale...tid=2&Itemid=72 Although some confusion about dates. Today is Wednesday 24th in this part of the world, and yesterday was Tuesday 23rd. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melly Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 For Pete - what’s the score for outstanding / missing orders? When are these likely to be undertaken? How do we know the information has actually been transposed to C&L? Understand you’re overloaded with stuff but clarity where none has been before would be greatly appreciated. I clarified my situation in a PM of 26th Sep. Regards Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I was with Peter yesterday and he has a mamoth job sorting out the Exactoscale stock. But he and the girls are doing it along with keeping up with the C&L orders. A second Van full was being unloaded when I arrived with more stock to follow. Peter is very keen to be up and running with Exactoscale products ASAP, but the volume of different items is enormous. As the trackwork is just one part or the range. Plans are a foot to be up and running as soon as possiable One of the staff is off for 3 weeks following an operation. I am certain that all customers and members would like to wish her a speedy recovery Melly, knowing Peter as I do he will do all he can to to resolve all outstanding orders as soon as he can. But he has stated on his previous posts in this thread what he proposes to do. Frustrating as it is we must give him the time he needs to intergrate Exactoscale products into the C&L's sales system. At least we now have some light at the end of the tunnel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 26, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2012 Today's update on the C&L web site shows that they are doing their best in a very difficult situation. Wishing Len well. http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42:updates&catid=2&Itemid=72 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted October 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2012 Have to say really well done to c&l with the level of comunication during the transition Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melly Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Ahh - it would appear the Exatcoscale stock rooms were a bit of a 'bottomless pit'!! Delayed TFN !! http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42:updates&catid=2&Itemid=72 I know that many of you will be annoyed at the date being postponed, and I understand your frustrations as this is no doubt holding up your modelling activities Fear not Pete - I admire your tennacity in doing it right first time. Just be prepared to be 'mobbed at Warley' - take Extra stock Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Paul GWR 2 bolt slide chairs would be nice for a starter. The Exactoscale turnout sleeper pack is very good, 180 (ish) sleepers per pack with 3 x 14" wide timbers and the long ones are more than 18 (scale) feet long. I have cut and shut check rail & slide (one side only) rail chairs, which makes them look a bit better, and any style of turnout can be built from it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul Plowman Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Reading the updates posted by Pete on the C&L website I am finding the present situation regarding Exactoscale track products very worrying. I would class myself as having average modelling skills placing myself nearer to those who require everything to be RTR than those who build most of their models from scratch. The combination of Exactoscale point kits and Ultrascale conversion packs provide someone like me with the opportunity to build a layout to P4 standards, which I would not otherwise be able to do. I have laid a little under half the proposed track on my layout and like many others further progress has come to a dead stop until C&L are able to market former Exactoscale products. I have e-mailed Pete a couple of times to ask whether my outstanding order with Exactoscale is one of which they are aware. Pete and his team clearly have their backs to the wall and are unable to respond to individual enquiries at this time. The suggestion that there might be a significant increase in prices is also very worrying. If prices were to double then the cost of say a C10 turnout begins to approach that of a Peco Gauge 1 turnout. If I were to rip up all of the P4 track I have laid so far, dump all the Ultrascale wheels I have purchased and finish my layout with Peco Code 75 I would be about 1,500 pounds better off than finishing in P4. I make this assessment using previous Exactoscale prices and including planned purchases from Ultrascale. Pete, if you are reading this, a major hike in prices will most likely turn off many modellers with average skills from working in P4. So at the moment we don’t know when we will be able to re-commence track laying or how much it is going to cost. With most of the eggs now in one basket the situation is not good. If C&L were to get into difficulty then only skilled modellers would be able to continue with P4 albeit with a limited number of sources for parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 From C+L's website: Update 9/12/12I have spent the weekend preparing lists and sorting priorities for the re-ordering of replacement stock to fill up gaps were stock levels are lower than I would like. These will be ordered on Monday but I do not currently know the estimated delivery time. Letters went out on Friday to those with 'back orders', so once we have received confirmation that the order is still required, the items can be sent out this week. If you have a back order and have not received a letter from us by Tuesday 11th, then it means that we are not aware of your order. I am afraid that you will have to wait until the products are available on the web site. Sorry about this but if I start taking individual orders over the phone I will never get the Exactoscale products online. I will be visiting Len again this week, to collect more stock and to meet jointly with him and some of the Exactoscale suppliers. Obviously new agreements have to be thrashed out now that C&L have taken over from Exactoscale. I suspect that some of the suppliers will try to use the change over as a reason to put their prices up! There is then the difficult decision whether to stick with them, as they know the products and Len knows their standards, and accept some or the entire price rise. The alternative is to spend time finding a new supplier in the hope that they may be cheaper, but at what cost in time and effort to find them and then check the standard of their work etc? Reduced Level of Service - Tuesday & Wednesday this week I have to go to hospital on Tuesday and will then travel to Essex and stay overnight, so that I can meet Len early on Wednesday and make full use of the whole day. There will therefore be no one to answer technical or business related emails from 5pm Monday 10th until 9am Thursday 13th December. There may also be a day's delay to orders placed during that period. We have been so busy with more than double our number of C&L related orders over the last two weeks, that some of the products that I actually make are running low. Please bear with us over this busy period. I have sent Pete a message via RMweb and an email to give an opportunity to respond to concerns over delays and pricing which impacted on Black Country Blues. After 3+ months of waiting for components a letter arrived asking if they wished to proceed with the order but that the costs quoted were 30.5% higher than at the point of order (this was classed as an 'interim' price list). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I am am avid user of both companies products and perhapps been lucky to know a little more of what is happenning behind the sceens than most. For some time now obtaining Exactoscale parts has been difficult, had C&L not stepped in then Exactoscale products would have been lost to the modelling world. We have known that price rises are in the offing, providing that they (track parts) stay with in the same price region as C&L products, then I cannot see a problem. Pete has also said he will either add more items / reduce numbers in a packet to soften the blow. If a packet of Exactoscale crossing chairs goes up from £3 to £4 its still good value. I know that Pete is looking at the composition of some of the packs which may save you having to buy 2 different packs. If you are buying component parts and making the crossings and switch rails yourself, then I would guess the price is still less that a RTR turnout, and you have a realistic looking turnout. In the end Pete must adjust prices to make a profit but on the other hand have prices which customers are willing to pay. If not the business will fail and the parts will not be available. We should be happy that Pete has made the Exactoscale parts available at recent shows, and is now addressing the back orders. Hopefully very soon the parts will be available from his website. I for one am very gratefull that Peter has taken over the marketing of these products, and for the expense and effort that he and the team are putting in to make these products available again. I can understand that it is very frustrating having to wait for parts to be come available, but the good news is that they will and by the look of it very soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 10, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2012 ......and the range made with nickel-silver rail please Pete. I'm sure that there would be a substantial market if kits supplied with it were available as an alternative. Hi John, Len originally explained that the switch rails and vee rails are are being profiled by spark erosion rather than milling -- hence the very fine results. If that's still the case it's very unlikely that nickel-silver versions could be offered. Spark erosion of copper alloys is very slow and difficult, and would cost very significantly more. edit: see: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61720-where-can-i-get-exactoscale-products-answer-cl-finescale/page__st__50#entry875552 A more practical alternative would be to supply the kits as timbering and chairs only without rail. It's not difficult to prepare your own switch and vee rails, there are numerous topics on RMweb covering the subject. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul Plowman Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 We must not forget the principle of diminishing returns. The point of diminishing returns is passed when the price is too high and sales begin to fall. If selling at the point of diminishing returns does not bring in enough money to cover costs then the product is no longer viable. Let us hope that this does not happen with former Exactoscale products. Pete and his team are clearly putting in an enormous effort and yes we should all be grateful but right now former Exactoscale customers don't know when supplies will be resumed or how much they will cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Hi John, Len originally explained that the switch rails and vee rails are are being profiled by spark erosion rather than milling -- hence the very fine results. If that's still the case it's very unlikely that nickel-silver versions could be offered. Spark erosion of copper alloys is very slow and difficult, and would cost very significantly more. A more practical alternative would be to supply the kits as timbering and chairs only without rail. It's not difficult to prepare your own switch and vee rails, there are numerous topics on RMweb covering the subject. regards, Martin. Martin As usual you are way above my technical understanding of engineering. The Exactoscale turnouts are designed for P4 gauge and most of the chair (special) was to support this. The special chairs in most cases can be used for EM and to a lesser extent 00 gauge. I am certain that one route that is open to Pete is to supply P4 turnout kits with out the rail, however the complete turnout kits are just the job for the novice track builder. As I have a friend who build a P4 turnout without any problems having little or no experance of building track and no track gauges !! I think to expand option this to both EM and 00 gauges may be a step too far, if only for the shear number of options needed to be stocked. However I do see the benefit of providing a universal turnout kit of parts. As for switch rails once you have made a couple they are quite quick to file up without any special jigs. I realy need to make a jig to solder the wing rails to the Vee on a common crossing, I do have a bit of an idea though !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cook Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Well finally after 111 days we finally get a response or even two responses It appears my order didn't get lost in the post they had it all the time The cheque and the original order were returned in the post today, offering me the choice to accept the order from C&L or cancel it, I think I will say nothing Along with the letter and the original order there is a new interim price list which is what it would cost if I accept the original order from C&L, The original order totalled at £100 plus p+p, accept the order from C&L and it will now cost £130.50 plus p+p, an increase of 30.5% and this is from there interim price list, I appreciate that prices have to go up but for those that had back orders with Exactoscale it would have been better to have the back order supplied at the original prices, It isnt as if C&L have had to make these components, just purchased the Exactoscale stock at the existing prices In a seperate mailing we have a repeat of the first order scribbled on a peice of paper by exactoscale made during a rare phone conversation, same order, same interim price list, and again asking what would I like to do, accept or cancel I suspect that all those that were waiting for track components have ordered them from Wizard being that there is hardly any track components left on his website left to purchase, so for those thinking about future layouts will have to be prepared to accept that there track costs will have increased by at least 30% when they come to make there purchase Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 10, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2012 It appears my order didn't get lost in the post they had it all the time "They" was actually one man (Len Newman) who has been having health problems for several months. It is a common mistake when dealing with one-man cottage industries to assume you are dealing with a multi-national corporation. It was always amusing to get phone calls asking to speak to the Despatch Department or the Sales Director. It isnt as if C&L have had to make these components, just purchased the Exactoscale stock at the existing prices But if they don't sell it at the replacement cost, they won't have the funds to order more when the existing stock runs out. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cook Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 "They" was actually one man (Len Newman) who has been having health problems for several months. Well probablly a bad choice of words, but when I did managed to get through on the phone and spoke to Len, he did pass me on to somebody else to talk about my order so clearly wasnt on his own that day But if they don't sell it at the replacement cost, they won't have the funds to order more when the existing stock runs out. Martin. Quite agree, but you missed out the bit were I mentioned those with back orders. For those with back orders having been kept in the dark about the state of their order for so long, (some still not knowing ) in the interests of customer relations it's the least that could have been done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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