Steadfast Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi all, Before I start off, I've had a look round here and the wider Internet, and can't find an answer. If I've missed some obvious content please point it out, it's more than likely down to my lack of knowledge of signalling and correct terms. So, a signal box I'm planning to model has both rods and wires coming out of it. Are all points controlled by the rods and the signals by wires? Or are points further away wire controlled with rodding for the last run to the actual point work? If it makes much difference, it's former Midland practice that I'm following, specifically Peak Forest South box Any help is greatly appreciated! jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2012 The signals are worked by the wires and the points are worked by the rodding (although sometimes you will find that points, even on mechanical 'boxes, have a motor drive instead of rodding - depending on period). There have been pics of rodding and wire runs on here in the past but just about everything I have posted has been (G)WR pattern kit although I'm sure Beast, and possibly others will have plenty of pics of LM practice and maybe even Midland because - as ever - place and period can make quite a difference. Best wait until Beast comes up with something and if not I'll get out some pics which will at least show you the basic arrangements although not necessarily in the exact style that you want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Thanks Mike, That's fantastic, confirming what I'd assumed. It's in N so I'll be aiming for a 'best representation', but any pictures or other information would be useful! Thanks again jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 15, 2012 Mike's response certainly covers a majority of operations. Signals are operated by wire (usually with numerous slack adjustment points in the run) since all that is needed in the most basic sense is to raise and lower a strip of counterbalanced metal. Points require rodding (which may be round or square depending on local practice) as they require a hefty push-pull to be exerted and large amounts of heavy steel shifted. For this reason some were worked by motors released electrically from a signalbox while the SR had a pneumatic set-up on much of the main line between Waterloo and Salisbury using compressed air for actuation of both signals and points with neither wires nor rods. Cables (air lines) could instead be seen emerging from the 'boxes concerned of which Salisbury's were among the last survivors. The effort to "pull off" a signal at some distance from the 'box should not be under-estimated. Up to half a mile of wire might have to be moved and despite the various devices to make it easier and keep the slack minimal the signalman might still have to brace with one leg firmly pressed against the adjacent lever while easing back from the waist - never pulling from the shoulders. Anyone who witnessed Dovey Junction's up distant from Aberystwyth being pulled off will know exactly what I mean - and that's just one example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2012 Best wait until Beast comes up with something Jo - do you have shots around Peak Forest ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2012 The effort to "pull off" a signal at some distance from the 'box should not be under-estimated. Up to half a mile of wire might have to be moved and despite the various devices to make it easier and keep the slack minimal the signalman might still have to brace with one leg firmly pressed against the adjacent lever while easing back from the waist - never pulling from the shoulders. Anyone who witnessed Dovey Junction's up distant from Aberystwyth being pulled off will know exactly what I mean - and that's just one example. Half a mile (880yds) - pfff. Port Sunlights Up distant was 1199 yards from the home, the down distant was 1240yds (iirc) and it wasn't a straight run - mind you getting it off was a challenge, so much so I even photographed the repeater one day to prove I'd done it. The down main distant at Helsby was worked (once) by 2 levers, one to take up the slack and one to clear it ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 A few detail views, picked at random plenty more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggesford box Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 And just for the sake of completeness there was the very rare use in this country of double wire operation of more distant points. Johnstone in west Wales was one example. Much more common on the continent but very much the exception over here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 And just for the sake of completeness there was the very rare use in this country of double wire operation of more distant points. And indeed the Midland did make some use of the system and had a continental style turnover lever that could be used on the end of their frame or even as a complete frame, this was continued and extended by the LMS, see http://www.signalbox.org/frames/lms.htm There used to be a small frame of this type in the signal shops at Crewe which all we trainees marvelled at. But as mentioned above these were rare and only need to be used if your specific prototype had them. I'm 99% certain that did not include Peak Forest.Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The GWRly and the LNERly, also had a few double wire frames. The advantage being that points could be worked by "Double Wire" at any distance from the signal box, and not the max BoT distance of 350 yards as per conventional rodding. A good write up on "Double Wire" working can be found in "Modern Railway Signalling", Tweedie and Lascelles, Blackie and Son Limited 1925. I will stand corrected, but I don't think the "Southern" had any two wire installations. Mick Nicholson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 A few more, and hopefully of interest to someone. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2012 The down main distant at Helsby was worked (once) by 2 levers, one to take up the slack and one to clear it ! Q.E.D - right hand end of frame Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Beast, what was the wording on the two "Pull Plates"? I'm pretty sure, I have a sketch somewhere, of the mechanics of the set up. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi everyone, thanks for the informative replies. It's interesting to see the actual detail of the mechanisms, of what I'll need to create an impression of when the model gets to that stage! Although the mass of rods and wires looks daunting, broken down to individual items it seems manageable. Jo - do you have shots around Peak Forest ? I have general train shots, but didn't get near the 'box. There's a few on Flickr, I can find a link if you'd like, I'm using them as reference for making the model of the box. Thanks for the help guys! jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2012 Hi Jo, I have photos of all sides of the box, I'll see if I can find them for you. Are you modelling Peak Forest or just using the box ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Dave, thanks so much for the offer - that'd be amazing, thank you. If you have anything of Great Rocks Junction box too, while you're looking, I think I'll be modelling it as well. It won't be called Peak Forest, but will be recognisable to anyone who's been there. Essentially I'll be modelling the section between the bridge at Peak Forest and the warehouses at Great Rocks Junction where the line south to Buxton and the line into Tunstead split. Ill be throwing in a heavy application of the modellers license too I'm on the iPad at the mo, but will see if I can describe it better later using some stuff off the laptop. jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2012 Let me have a dig, I've taken quite a few around the area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Signal connections this time. Again, will be of interest to some one. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Just to make things more complicated, Mick's rare wire-operated points are probably quite easily confused with the much more common arrangement where the signal wires are connected through slotted plates which pass through slots in similar plates at 90 degrees, these being connected to the points. This is a way of providing interlocking between the points and the signals. I don't have a picture but I'm sure someone has! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2012 Beast, what was the wording on the two "Pull Plates"? I'm pretty sure, I have a sketch somewhere, of the mechanics of the set up. Mick. I think they were both "distant" - but the LNWR plates had been replaced with Dymo Just to make things more complicated, Mick's rare wire-operated points are probably quite easily confused with the much more common arrangement where the signal wires are connected through slotted plates which pass through slots in similar plates at 90 degrees, these being connected to the points. This is a way of providing interlocking between the points and the signals. I don't have a picture but I'm sure someone has! Detection rather than interlocking Edwin Heswall Hills, 1980 Edit - add location Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Mick's rare wire-operated points are probably quite easily confused with the much more common arrangement where the signal wires are connected through slotted plates which pass through slots in similar plates at 90 degrees, these being connected to the points. This is a way of providing interlocking between the points and the signals. I don't have a picture but I'm sure someone has! Post #11 above, as well as Beast's examples. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Let me have a dig, I've taken quite a few around the area. Cheers Dave, it's much appreciated! Back to what I said earlier, here's the area I'm planning to include, so a pretty good excuse to model two boxes. Nothing like throwing myself inat the deep end... I'll focus on the areas around Peak Forest station, signal box and stabling point as well as Great Rocks, losing much of the "open track" between the two, but still with room to run round as per the prototype. The big warehouse at Great Rocks being behind my wanting to model that area too, they look so traditional in style jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 A few more miscellaneous pics of rodding and cables from an old thread of mine from RMWeb2.5 or thereabouts http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/135-point-rodding-cranks-compensators-and-cables/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Attached a typical double wire point mechanism. I doubt if the UK examples differed, that is apart from detail, otherwise, they wouldn't work. Mick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Attached a typical double wire point mechanism. I doubt if the UK examples differed, that is apart from detail, otherwise, they wouldn't work. Mick. Interesting. The operating rod appears to have a simple mechanism for locking the closed switch rail in place by clamping around a chair or something. I don't recall seeing anything like this before on UK examples, have I missed something or is this a continental practice? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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