The future of loco kit building

[Donw]

I had a kit for a GWR 1361 described as White metal and etched brass. My friend Steve offered to build it as I was busy finishing the layout for an exhibition. The build took longer than I expected but the end result was better than I expected. It was sometime later when someone asked where I got it I realised there wasn't actually much white metal. I mentioned this to Steve. His comment 'well I took the whitemetal parts and thought they look a bit lumpy and went off and cut a bit of brass." Now if I had built it it would have been the whitemetal but Steve who is very skilled works to higher standards.

Don

[Blenheim]

I'm a bit late to the discussion, having waded through the posts over the course of several lunch breaks... Plenty of excellent points have been raised, and I would echo the remark that loco kit-building is time-consuming, even when building something as the manufacturer intended.

 

One thing that I don't think anyone has raised specifically, is the buildability of etched chassis -- especially in 4 mm scale. In theory, building an etched chassis should be almost fool-proof, with a result that is square and free from twist, and runs first time. But I know it is not: my modest collection of unbuilt kits and chassis feature all manner of frame spacers and construction methods, most of which would benefit from shelling out another £100+ for a chassis assembly jig! It is a great sense of achievement when a hand-built chassis picks its way along a length of track, but it's equally disheartening when a chassis won't run well (or at all).

 

Where kit designers supply separate frames and spacers without locating tabs, can I suggest that a little thought be made for including a fold-up etched assembly jig that ensures that the axles are parallel and perpendicular to the frames? (I am thinking along the lines of a U-shaped cradle with two rows of axle holes opposite each other.) It might add a little more to the cost of the kit, but if it gets rid of the frustration and disappointment, then everyone's a winner.

[Buhar]

I've been scanning and archiving pages ripped out of railway magazines over many years. Larry, do you remember A Trio of Compounds from the GEM kit in RM from 1971?

 

On featured layouts in older mangazines you would often see examples of a kit-built loco, sometimes with a brief comment on it's construction. This is much less the case now, excellent model railways are presented with entirely RTR stock, detailed, modified or weathered very often, but little to inspire someone towards kitbuilding. When I saw Rewley Road at Oxford recently it was interesting to note that the exclusively kit-built locos there are almost all now available RTR (except the pure LNW stuff and the LMS DMU). I do wonder if the success of the 1950s, Transition, or Blue era model, which are well catered for by the RTR trade has pushed examples of successful kitbuilds to one side. So much of what inspires us is "I think I could do that" and if we don't see it we don't get the spark or the push.

 

That said, Model Rail and BRM have quite often had features on kitbuilding and there are the Righttrack DVDs too which are excellent tutorials, so it's not that the mainstream press don't offer encouragement, maybe that strugglers like me don't see the finished articles in a way that we can relate to.

 

I've got loads of unmade kits, however I've also got some whitemetal ones glued together, a couple of scratchbuilt (plasticard) efforts both on useless chassis (0-4-0 and 0-6-0 - so I wasn't being over-ambitious) and then a motley collection of started chassis kits that got to a point and then stalled through sheer fear.

 

I can't get the chassis right and I struggle with deciding on the motor/gearbox combination that will fit without being visible. The chassis etches in some kits have so much detail that I look and think my 0-4-0T is like a drunken duck, what chance have I got with bits that might be inside valve gear, laminated brakeblocks, pull rodding and operating sanding gear! If I mess this up that's £40 down the drain and I can't get a replacement because its out of production. I have the same with wanting to solder whitemetal kits, I'm prepared to make mistakes, just not very expensive, irrecoverable ones.

 

So I am a stalled kitbuilder, I got my inspiration years ago and rejuvenate it now and again, I have laid code 75 track so I can run Gibson wheels. I can solder brass OK, I have a surplus of thumbs, but probably not many more than the average modeller, I need an idiot-proof starter kit (LMS steam) that will end up good enough not to discourage me and provide a sound base for developing my skill (singular).

[sjgardiner]

Hmm, i want to comment in this thread, yet i don't because frankly, while I've been watching it, I haven't read every post in detail, which means there is probably lots of good discussion I've missed, and from what i can see, there is lots of divided opinion on the subject, but never the less, my 2 cents worth on the subject

 

For what it's worth, I've never built a Locomotive Kit (I'm in my mid 30's for reference) other than a Dapol 9F and City of Truro years ago (neither of which will win any awards for quality of construction/appearance). All my steam locomotives aside from these are RTR from either side of the pond, and in North America, there just aren't the options for getting kits of locomotives that there is in the UK. It's either an outright scratch-build/convert from the ground up/whatever you want to call it where you may be able to start from a commercial locomotive motor/wheels, and modify it to no end to get the appearance you want, or you are out of luck if it hasn't been done in plastic or brass. You can't just ring up a company that produces kits of say a CPR Jubilee and order one and have a decent starting point to create your locomotive. I have "customized" a number of diesel locomotives to match a specific prototype or at least do what is referred to as "Canadianizing" a locomotive (ie taking a loco that may be accurate for the US, but sold in Canadian paint but with incorrect details for a Canadian prototype), but this isn't building a kit, as so long as i don't screw up the mechanical bits, it should run as well when I'm done as it did/didn't before i started working on it.

 

All that said, one of the things i enjoy about reading these forums is the kit-builders, as building a kit is very high on my to-do list. I find the discussions about what works/what doesn't, techniques, issues with different kits to be very helpful, for me, i am building a level of knowledge without the expense of trial and error or failed kits. Doesn't mean i won't fail when i try, but it definitely starts me on a better footing than if i didn't have it. As with all parts of this hobby, there are many skills to learn, some we may never get the hang of, others, we may become masters at. I used to be crap with an airbrush, but something clicked a couple of years ago, i still am useless at freehand, but masking areas and getting a nice finish and good coverage, i have mastered that, at least "mastered" enough that i am happy with the results and confident when i break out the airbrush to start painting a project. The first white metal kit i tried to build of a detail was crap too, but they got better with practice. I expect that whenever i get to buying a kit to build, that I'll have all kinds of hurdles to cross. The first i can see is getting the frame straight and soldered. I have soldered brass, i would say semi-successfully, and have manged to create square boxes from brass etches, so at least i've seen those skills, but clearly from what I've seen, one of the more challenging parts of a locomotive kit build is getting the frame right and the rolling chassis together. The rest of it appears depending on the material types, to use the base skills of kit-building that you generate as you get into the hobby, as clearly building locomotive kits involves a broad range of skills used in many other parts of the hobby.

 

I want a model of the first working steam locomotive i remember seeing, CR419 at Bo'Ness. Since this isn't likely to come out RTR, i have set my sights on building my own. I know DJH makes a kit of this type of locomotive, and I've looked at it and considered it, and when the finances are there, i intend to purchase it. I don't know how well or how poorly it will go for me, it's a big learning curve, but i can tell you that it's something i am excited about, even if it's not something I'm likely to do a lot of, the notion of building a locomotive from a kit is one that interests me as i continue to refine the modelling skills i've learned over the years and branch out into learning new skills. I don't expect everyone in the hobby will want to build their own locomotives, but to me at least, it seems like one of those things that there has always been a market for and likely will be, as no matter how broad a net the RTR market casts, there will always be more than they can produce, and those who like the satisfaction of knowing they've done it themselves.

 

I suspect that's enough of a ramble and probably doesn't add much to the overall discussion, but it's Friday afternoon and rambling on was more engaging than launching into anything new at the office.

 

-Stephen

[N15class]

I would always recomend starting with a whitemetal wagon or an etched brass wagon. This way you can learn to solder and the mistakes are not too costly. When you have done a few and the confidence is getting better, you tackle a simple loco. You will also have a few wagons for you loco to pull once completed.

[James]

I would always recomend starting with a whitemetal wagon or an etched brass wagon. This way you can learn to solder and the mistakes are not too costly. When you have done a few and the confidence is getting better, you tackle a simple loco. You will also have a few wagons for you loco to pull once completed.

 

I'd be careful with the choice of kit as there are some truly awful metal wagon kits out there!

[N15class]

The same goes with locos. I would much rather make a mistake and ruin a wagon than an expensive loco kit. It is like all things you need to research before you start by asking questions about kits. It also helps to do some research about the real thing too, so that you have an idea about the way they look and what bits go where.

[John M]

The same goes with locos. I would much rather make a mistake and ruin a wagon than an expensive loco kit. It is like all things you need to research before you start by asking questions about kits. It also helps to do some research about the real thing too, so that you have an idea about the way they look and what bits go where.

 

In a way etched kits are can be more forgiving than whitemetal, while I salvaged all of my early botched attempts at etched brass assembly a number of whitemetal kits ended up in the scrap box.

 

Some of my earlier models have been re-built several times and detail added, nearly 30 years despite a somewhat dodgy initial assembly are still reasonably good models despite many trials and tribulations.

[JeffP]

On featured layouts in older mangazines you would often see examples of a kit-built loco, sometimes with a brief comment on it's construction. This is much less the case now, excellent model railways are presented with entirely RTR stock, detailed, modified or weathered very often, but little to inspire someone towards kitbuilding.

 

I put this down to dumbing down.

Even MRJ which used to run TWO four page articles on a build, now rarely gets into a detailed build.

[coachmann]

I've been scanning and archiving pages ripped out of railway magazines over many years. Larry, do you remember A Trio of Compounds from the GEM kit in RM from 1971?

 

I remember building them and writing the article but dont remember much else I'm afraid. I suspect George M. took the photos. After several house moves and clear outs, I have so few of my articles today. Did I build one of the original Compounds as well?

[sjgardiner]

I would always recomend starting with a whitemetal wagon or an etched brass wagon. This way you can learn to solder and the mistakes are not too costly. When you have done a few and the confidence is getting better, you tackle a simple loco. You will also have a few wagons for you loco to pull once completed.

 

Assuming that was directed at my ramble, i have more experience and comfort working with white metal parts/kits than i do with Brass. The part that is most daunting when i look at locomotive kit instructions on the web is folding the etched frames and having them be true, then reaming the axle holes to the right size and to be true across the frames.

 

In any event, i'm safe for a while before i take on anything that complex. My next couple of projects in hand are a urethane resin passenger car and modifying extensively a walthers heavyweight car, nice safe projects using techniques i know well.

 

-Stephen

[N15class]

Steven

It was a general statement. There simple axle jigs for chassis, which are longer axle type things with turnened down ends to take coupling rods, this lines everything up nicely. Using graph paper also aids getting everything lined up nicely. Folding the brass at half etched lines I find easier after either scoring or my prefered method is to use a square neenle file on edge. This makes a nice vee groove.

[Buhar]

Did I build one of the original Compounds as well?

 

You did the LMS Standard, a shallow-framed MR one and one of the originals (from a Gem Class 3). George Mellor did take the photos. Seems a decent paint job .

[billbedford]

Assuming that was directed at my ramble, i have more experience and comfort working with white metal parts/kits than i do with Brass. The part that is most daunting when i look at locomotive kit instructions on the web is folding the etched frames and having them be true, then reaming the axle holes to the right size and to be true across the frames.

It's perfectly possible to design a frame etch which always folds up square and doesn't need the axle holes reaming.

[3 link]

 

I want a model of the first working steam locomotive i remember seeing, CR419 at Bo'Ness. Since this isn't likely to come out RTR, i have set my sights on building my own. I know DJH makes a kit of this type of locomotive, and I've looked at it and considered it, and when the finances are there, i intend to purchase it. I don't know how well or how poorly it will go for me, it's a big learning curve, but i can tell you that it's something i am excited about, even if it's not something I'm likely to do a lot of, the notion of building a locomotive from a kit is one that interests me as i continue to refine the modelling skills i've learned over the years and branch out into learning new skills.

 

-Stephen

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I do not want to put you off kit building in anyway but I personally do not think a DJH kit would be a good starting point, I would go for say a Connoisseur or Scorpio kit as the majority of parts are in brass whereas DJH are a lot of white metal and sometimes not that accurate. And also for the actual enjoyment of the build you cannot go far wrong with one of Jim's, like you say with your air brushing it's all a learning curve but it must also be do-able as a lot of possibly great modellers have been put off carrying on in the hobby through picking the wrong kit to make a start with.

 

Martyn.

[coachmann]

........as a lot of possibly great modellers have been put off carrying on in the hobby through picking the wrong kit to make a start with.

Dont know how true this is or not. My first kit, a K's LNWR Coal Tank in 1962, ended up as a ball of metal as I got so flippin annoyed with it. But, I could hardly have done a good job using a large copper iron warmed up on the grate, plumbers solder and no flux! Even at 20, I had not gathered how to solder correctly, but not put off, I then built scores of bodies in Plastikard on Triang chassis and the Hornby Dublo R1 chassis. It wasnt until befriending GEM when I moved to Wales in the mid 1960s that I was shown what was needed to solder, then there was no stopping me and I ended up doing it for a living.

 

If younger folk do not wish to build kits, I wonder how much of this is due to them being brought up with hi-tec and see model railway kits as low-tec... Just a thought. There is no reason for anyone to build kits if they can live without certain models of course. I wouldn't build a coach kit just for the pleasure of doing it.....It would only be because I needed a particular type. Building for a crust is divorced from what I do for myself.

[Metropolitan]

Hi Stephen,

 

I do not want to put you off kit building in anyway but I personally do not think a DJH kit would be a good starting point, I would go for say a Connoisseur or Scorpio kit as the majority of parts are in brass whereas DJH are a lot of white metal and sometimes not that accurate. And also for the actual enjoyment of the build you cannot go far wrong with one of Jim's, like you say with your air brushing it's all a learning curve but it must also be do-able as a lot of possibly great modellers have been put off carrying on in the hobby through picking the wrong kit to make a start with.

 

Martyn.

 

I don't agree. I think DJH kits are by far the best place to start. The casting and component quality is the very best and they have all been designed for simple and easy construction leading to a robust and usable working model. They are also OO only so you have no need to worry about the ridiculous notion of compensation and springing.

 

DJH must now be by far the longest lived and successful kit manufacturer and are still making their range of 00 kits. If you look on eBay I would guess that their range has outsold all the other makers kits put together. I would also guess that they still outsell everyone else for new kits. And it is not difficult to see why.

[Michael Delamar]

can I ask if any of the kit producers have learned anything from this thread?

[Arthur]

My first kit, a K's LNWR Coal Tank in 1962,

 

My first kit too, 1980, though I used glue. I seem to remember it was some sort of two part epoxy but, unlike modern araldite, I applied one component to the joint and then ran in a more fluid setting liquid. Anybody any idea what it might have been? Other than ending up with a slightly sloping roof it wasn't too bad as a first effort.

 

I did another couple of glued kits and my first soldering attempt was the tender on a GEM Super D 0-8-0. From then on I just developed my soldering skills.

 

I'd certainly agree with John that DJH kits would be a good start, well made, and you can always glue the castings and practice soldering on the brass seams.

[3 link]

I don't agree. I think DJH kits are by far the best place to start. The casting and component quality is the very best and they have all been designed for simple and easy construction leading to a robust and usable working model. They are also OO only so you have no need to worry about the ridiculous notion of compensation and springing.

 

DJH must now be by far the longest lived and successful kit manufacturer and are still making their range of 00 kits. If you look on eBay I would guess that their range has outsold all the other makers kits put together. I would also guess that they still outsell everyone else for new kits. And it is not difficult to see why.

 

Hi John,

 

Sorry for some reason I thought the post was concerning 7mm ( I have 7mm on the brain ) hence the recommendation of Connoisseur or Scorpio kits, I'm afraid that in 7mm DJH are not thought of so highly when it comes to ease of build shall we say. Although they can be made up into a nice model they are far from a good "starter kit" in 7mm IMO, as for the 4mm kits I cannot say as I have only built the k's and finecast kits and that was some 30 years ago .

 

ATB,

 

Martyn.

[Barry O]

I don't agree. I think DJH kits are by far the best place to start. The casting and component quality is the very best and they have all been designed for simple and easy construction leading to a robust and usable working model. They are also OO only so you have no need to worry about the ridiculous notion of compensation and springing.

 

DJH must now be by far the longest lived and successful kit manufacturer and are still making their range of 00 kits. If you look on eBay I would guess that their range has outsold all the other makers kits put together. I would also guess that they still outsell everyone else for new kits. And it is not difficult to see why.

For reasons to do with getting locos around sharp corners DJH have always put there external cylinders miles outside of where they should be and if you don't spend time fixing that they don't look correct. They also manage to miss bits out ( external piping etc under the footplate on the standard 2-6-4T

They may be "easy" to build but they take a bit of work getting them to look right.

 

Me - my first kit was a Wills Flatiron ( which I still have) - glued with Araldite and then, later ripped apart and soldered together.

[Arthur]

They may be "easy" to build but they take a bit of work getting them to look right.

 

I would think that for most aspiring kitbuilders Barry, the easy to build bit would take priority over absolute fidelity. Surely better to successfully build a less than perfect kit than to be put off by failing with the perfect, but tricky to build, model?

[billbedford]

can I ask if any of the kit producers have learned anything from this thread?

Have we come to a consensus?

[billbedford]

I would think that for most aspiring kitbuilders Barry, the easy to build bit would take priority over absolute fidelity. Surely better to successfully build a less than perfect kit than to be put off by failing with the perfect, but tricky to build, model?

This is one of the reasons inside cylindered locos are recommended for beginners.

[Kenton]

In a way etched kits are can be more forgiving than whitemetal, while I salvaged all of my early botched attempts at etched brass assembly a number of whitemetal kits ended up in the scrap box.

 

No I wouldn't agree with that. To pull apart a badly put together whitemetal kit all you need is a pan of boiling water (for solder) or a can of Nitromoors (for Araldite). To pull apart a brass kit is a multiple step process - boil as above to remove w/m castings, the get out the blow torch to undo all the brass (or take days heating each join with an underpowered soldering iron and expensive solder braid) Then run the risk of overheating and annealing the brass.

 

Of course both require extensive clean up afterwards to get back to a position to be able to start again but it can be done.