RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 6, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 6, 2014 If all of the new track is to be in place by 13 July it will include the switching at the NW end of Kemble Tunnel becoming inoperative by that date, and how can NR remove that switching unless the double-track control is already in place and ready to go? Sorry if I remain a doubter in regard 13 July, guys!! I'm puzzled - obviously if the new controls/commissioning is not taking place until August the full layout change at Kemble cannot operate until then. However it would surely be quite practicable to either do the new crossover on the changeover weekend or in fact to lay it in before thaenoff a slew onto the Down Line formation and put a temporary link to the existing controls on it until such time as control is changed over? None of this is rocket science and it is simply a matter of putting together the staging in a suitable way - which I would have thought, and hoped, is not exactly a difficult task for competent civil and signal engineers even if it is no longer BR doing it. And after all the changeover in the past from double to single had to be done in that way! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted June 6, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 6, 2014 Folks, as I understand it (and I can't check again now until Monday), is that the current switch at Kemble, controlling the double to single line, will not be removed until the August blockade. There should be sufficient mid-week and weekend overnight possessions to complete the laying in of the second line. Evidently the existing switch (445 points) at Kemble cannot be decommissioned until the new double track is ready to go. It may be that the new facing switches in the Down line at Kemble on the new crossover will be installed prior to August Bank Holiday (the rest of the new crossover is already there as per my previous photos). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 Yes I've seen a track diagram showing 2 crossovers at Kemble - would explain the error in my post some pages ago about there being two in the final layout...........there will be for a while until the final stage, it may even be left there OOU for a while after........... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinzaC55 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 This is an interesting thread. When the work is complete it would be nice to see a gallery of Before and After photos ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Captain, given the massive amount of work still to be done to put all the double tracking in place (as witnessed by recent photos posted on other websites), how can 13 July be a realistic date for completion? Maybe 13 July was a target date that was set six months ago before the flooding? I haven't seen the photos on the "other websites" so I may be talking through my hat, but laying a line adjacent to an existing one can be done pretty quickly if you have possession of the existing line. I remember seeing Jarvis demonstrating this at Railfest in 2004. Essentially if you park a train load of wagons each carrying a stack of 60' track panels on the existing line, you unload the top panel off each stack simultaneously, then move the train up by its own length and repeat. Obviously final alignment, welding, tamping etc still has to take place,but quarter of a mile of track panels can be laid in place in about 15 minutes if the train is long enough and enough engineers are available. Lots of people thought rebuilding Dawlish in 6-8 weeks was impossible,too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Jones Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Thanks for the excellent recent posts! All very interesting! I thought there was to be only one crossover at Kemble (one in the direction of travel) but maybe there will two crossovers after all (the current switch at the Kemble Tunnel entrance being retained as part of a second crossover). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Boco_D1 Posted June 7, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2014 I haven't seen the photos on the "other websites" so I may be talking through my hat, but laying a line adjacent to an existing one can be done pretty quickly if you have possession of the existing line. I remember seeing Jarvis demonstrating this at Railfest in 2004. Essentially if you park a train load of wagons each carrying a stack of 60' track panels on the existing line, you unload the top panel off each stack simultaneously, then move the train up by its own length and repeat. Obviously final alignment, welding, tamping etc still has to take place,but quarter of a mile of track panels can be laid in place in about 15 minutes if the train is long enough and enough engineers are available. Lots of people thought rebuilding Dawlish in 6-8 weeks was impossible,too... Unfortunately replacing the second Kemble isn't as simple as that when it was singled the track was slewed to the middle. To return the second line the original track has had to be slewed back it also needs lowering as ballast build up and earthworks over the years has made the track out of gauge to fit under the bridges. Further earthworks has also been required in places to put the second track back in place including clearing cutting and strengthening banks and finally you have Collins lane HBC, Purton Common footcrossing, Gambols and Gryphon lodge occupation crossings and Minety crossing to double up as well. As for controlling the double section I know of two choices that are under consideration although I'm not sure what I am allowed and not allowed to publish online so I shall say no more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 I'm guessing that at some point the bridges will need rebuilding to allow for W10 clearance (diversionary route to Wentloog) and possibly future electrification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Jones Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Unfortunately replacing the second Kemble isn't as simple as that when it was singled the track was slewed to the middle. To return the second line the original track has had to be slewed back it also needs lowering as ballast build up and earthworks over the years has made the track out of gauge to fit under the bridges. Further earthworks has also been required in places to put the second track back in place including clearing cutting and strengthening banks and finally you have Collins lane HBC, Purton Common footcrossing, Gambols and Gryphon lodge occupation crossings and Minety crossing to double up as well. As for controlling the double section I know of two choices that are under consideration although I'm not sure what I am allowed and not allowed to publish online so I shall say no more. Come on, Boco. You can tell us. We won't tell others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 7, 2014 I would have thought the options are reasonably obvious, viz:- 1. Alter Swindon panel - probably too awkward especially in view of its limited life, or, 2. Take the area from roughly Loco Yard onwards to the end of the current Swindon control area off the existing panel and put in some sort of temporary control point in Swindon panel box alongside or near the existing panel (if there's room), or, 3. Put the new double line section straight onto TVSC with a boundary with the existing Swindon panel somewhere in the vicinity of, again, Loco Yard and use the existing single line on Swindon panel for advanced Up Gloucester line indications - involves a temporary interface between Didcot and Swindon but beyond Loco Yard, or thereabouts, is as per final for Didcot and the Didcot/Gloucester boundary. All have their particular advantages and disadvantages but I reckon No.1 will be ruled out as to time consuming and complex and involving too much abortive expenditure. Shame I won't get a chance to drop in on my former colleagues in a certain signalling design office who will no doubt be looking at the technical aspects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Jones Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I would have thought the options are reasonably obvious, viz:- 1. Alter Swindon panel - probably too awkward especially in view of its limited life, or, 2. Take the area from roughly Loco Yard onwards to the end of the current Swindon control area off the existing panel and put in some sort of temporary control point in Swindon panel box alongside or near the existing panel (if there's room), or, 3. Put the new double line section straight onto TVSC with a boundary with the existing Swindon panel somewhere in the vicinity of, again, Loco Yard and use the existing single line on Swindon panel for advanced Up Gloucester line indications - involves a temporary interface between Didcot and Swindon but beyond Loco Yard, or thereabouts, is as per final for Didcot and the Didcot/Gloucester boundary. All have their particular advantages and disadvantages but I reckon No.1 will be ruled out as to time consuming and complex and involving too much abortive expenditure. Shame I won't get a chance to drop in on my former colleagues in a certain signalling design office who will no doubt be looking at the technical aspects. Stationmaster, your options 2 and 3 make good sense as far as controlling the double track. What I'm wondering is what you see in place on the ground at the time of the rail closure in late August. As far as I can see, the track switching at Kemble Tunnel will need to remain in place up to closure, then during closure NR will first disconnect the down rail from that switch and connect the newly-laid second rail coming from the Tunnel to the existing down track, and only then will start testing the new double-track control. If they should have serious problems with the new control, presumably they would need to reconnect to the switch at Kemble Tunnel as a temporary measure to resume two-way service on the single track. Can you see another scenario? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Boco_D1 Posted June 8, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2014 Stationmaster, your options 2 and 3 make good sense as far as controlling the double track. What I'm wondering is what you see in place on the ground at the time of the rail closure in late August. As far as I can see, the track switching at Kemble Tunnel will need to remain in place up to closure, then during closure NR will first disconnect the down rail from that switch and connect the newly-laid second rail coming from the Tunnel to the existing down track, and only then will start testing the new double-track control. If they should have serious problems with the new control, presumably they would need to reconnect to the switch at Kemble Tunnel as a temporary measure to resume two-way service on the single track. Can you see another scenario? If a serious problems arise then the T3 would be extentened to rectify where possible or a degraded method of working would be set up in the signal box to allow the passage of trains. Depending on what work is done and the commissioning of the second line this would be more than likley be tempory block working which would be nice and easy to set up and work on the double line with only the ponts needed clipping at Kemble and Loco yard, the biggest headache being the crossings. It would be very unlikely that the old crossover would be reconnect to restore the singal line as all signalling equipment would be altered for a double line rather than single. Edited for spelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted June 8, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2014 Folks - there is an eminently workable solution proposed and I have now seen what it is. I'll not say much more on here right now, because in fairness I'm not sure how far this has/needs to be consulted in with the signaller staff reps etc. (been a while since I last chaired a LDC meeting and things may have changed!). May I make it clear, however, that there will only be ONE crossover at Kemble, which will be the new facing one. The existing 445 points may well end up being clipped out of use, but will eventually be removed, whether in the August blockade or later. The new facing move will, of course, allow a move direct from the new Down Kemble line into the former Cirencester bay, now a tamper siding. If a serious problems arise then the T3 would be extentened to rectify where possible or a degraded method of working would be set up in the signal box to allow the passage of trains. Depending on what work is done and the commissioning of the second line this would be more than likley be tempory block working which would be nice and easy to set up and work on the double line with only the ponts needed clipping at Kemble and Loco yard, the biggest headache being the crossings. It would be very unlikely that the old crossover would be reconnect to restore the singal line as all signalling equipment would be altered for a double line rather than single. Edited for spelling Boco - I will be involved in the contingency planning, and the new crossover could be used to maintain some kind of single running line option. However, TBW over the new double line seems a far more likely scenario, but let's hope it remains just a contingency, and not needed at all! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted June 8, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2014 When the work is complete it would be nice to see a gallery of Before and After photos ? John Stretton and I are currently working on a new 'Then & Now' volume on the Swindon to Gloucester line (and branches) for Silver Link Publishing (aka 'The Nostalgia Collection'). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 8, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2014 John Stretton and I are currently working on a new 'Then & Now' volume on the Swindon to Gloucester line (and branches) for Silver Link Publishing (aka 'The Nostalgia Collection'). ooh, my avatar is in just the right place then (Coates) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Boco_D1 Posted June 9, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2014 Boco - I will be involved in the contingency planning, and the new crossover could be used to maintain some kind of single running line option. However, TBW over the new double line seems a far more likely scenario, but let's hope it remains just a contingency, and not needed at all! I agree with you there Captain, hopefully all shall go smoothly (espcially if control stays in the panel I belive i'm rostered to work the controlling end when the new line comes in ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Jones Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Someone on the Great Western Coffeeshop is reporting they saw two trains passing between Kemble and Swindon -- a scheduled train on the UP track and a NR test train on the DOWN track. So all of the track work must by now have been completed, with only the signalling to be finalized. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Western Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The new Down line is only connected at the Loco Yard end, there was a Tamper stabled at Purton LC on Friday night. There is track through Kemble Tunnel but totally isolated from the Kemble Single line at the station end and the more or less complete new down line the other side. They need to remove or relocated the signal protecting the junction at Kemble before the two sections can be welded together. GW. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 22, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2014 The new Down line is only connected at the Loco Yard end, there was a Tamper stabled at Purton LC on Friday night. There is track through Kemble Tunnel but totally isolated from the Kemble Single line at the station end and the more or less complete new down line the other side. They need to remove or relocated the signal protecting the junction at Kemble before the two sections can be welded together. I looked when I visited on the 16th of this month, but couldn't see any track in the tunnel itself. New Down Kemble line seen ending just short, near to SN158 signal: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajwffc Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 update from my father who is involved in this project Up Kemble complete with the exception of 130m for the plain lining of the single lead at Kemble and 100m at Loco Yard Jn (associated with the plain lining of 368 points). The Up Kemble is currently in use as the operational track. Down Kemble is complete to just short of signal SN158 at the south portal of Kemble tunnel (the signal coincides with the new 6’ rail). Rails and sleepers have been laid through the tunnel. Following the plain lining of the single lead 133m of track is required (including the switches of 5868a points) at Kemble, 143 m of plain line at Loco Yard Jn for the plain lining of the single lead and 123m of plain line to fill the gap at SN158. Additionally, during the first 56 hours of the August disruptive possession (18 – 21 August) 2km of the up line over Purton embankment will be lowered and relaid as part of the embankment stability works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 29, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2014 update from my father who is involved in this project Your father's update is (not unexpectely) spot-on! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Western Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I looked when I visited on the 16th of this month, but couldn't see any track in the tunnel itself. New Down Kemble line seen ending just short, near to SN158 signal: IMG_3858.JPG Starts and stops within the actual tunnel. Great Western. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Yes, apparently that second unconnected track in the tunnel is for the strategic reserve now that Corsham MOD's closed................ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajwffc Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 A pic of track in the tunnel https://www.facebook.com/WatsonRailwayEngineeringLtd/photos/a.480047748672016.112501.445196418823816/816186341724820/?type=1&theater Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 31, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2014 Starts and stops within the actual tunnel. Thanks, that explains it. My colleague and I actually obtained permission from the landowner (commercial farm) to go to the London-end portal. It was a negotiated access in the previous blockade, but agreement had expired, hence asking permission this time - the people in the office were pleased that we'd done so! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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