Hornby Magazine OO Gauge Brake Tender

[Vistisen]

I hadnt thought of it like that - you could well be right - eeeeeek! LOL!!

 

I was ribbing my teenage niece, a bright girl, that all kids did nowadays, for their homework/projects, was 'cut and paste' from Wikipedia, she calmly and assertively replied that that would be out and out plagiarism (of course she is perfectly correct in her acerbic statement) and besides the teachers have a computer programme that can identify such cutting and pasting. In my day we just had to flog essays out at Uni, no internet and often wed be lucky to have a WP or PC. I also quipped back - to my niece and nephew - that this new software teachers were using would now ruin one of my other hobbies which is messing up Wikipedia entries (I am joking, it's a line that I nicked from The Big Bang Theory LOL), which in reality I dont have time for, even if I wanted to. My - older - nephew also bright, but a little naive, said; '...do you really mess up Wiki entries uncle M.?' My niece and I just looked at him and burst out laughing, then he got the joke, they're both Big Bang Theory fans too.

Sheldon likes trains and would feel right at home here om RMweb

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Sheldon likes trains and would feel right at home here om RMweb

Choo Choo! 'Its official Im a HO trainiac!'

 

When previously he'd said;- 'Oh who am I kidding, it's O gauge or no gauge for me!' (my nephew quotes that at me too!).

 

Im in the latter camp.

 

LOL!!

[black and decker boy]

I was ribbing my teenage niece, a bright girl, .

I'm glad I read that twice as my first pass saw 'rubbing'

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I'm glad I read that twice as my first pass saw 'rubbing'

I think that may say more about you than it does me

[rembrow]

Hornby magazine, June edition, shows a picture of what seems to be the final engineering sample, decorated. It incorporates changes to the tooling, described as rivets on the curved top and newly tooled Gresley bogies. This EP also doubles as the first decorated sample, in green with small yellow ends. The other livery sample models are expected over the coming weeks. No date for availability is advised yet. There is only a side view, so not possible to see if the body has the side tumblehome for this version, but no reason to believe it doesn't as they've taken the decision to retool the bogies.

[Phil Bullock]

Theres a video link on here

 

http://www.hornbymagazine.com/view_article.asp?ID=8913&pubID=38&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10#continued

 

Phil

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Theres a video link on here

 

http://www.hornbymagazine.com/view_article.asp?ID=8913&pubID=38&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10#continued

 

Phil

Thanks for Posting.

 

Have to say, it looks good in places and yet not so in others.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[Porcy Mane]

To my eyes, it looks like there maybe may be a hint of a tumbleholme but that's about it. I'm sure the reproduction of the rivets is a first (Pedant mode on-They were bolt heads in reality.-Pedant mode off) but that tumbleholme should be more prominent. I guess the producers will be claiming it needed to be reduced to allow for clearance the wheels on small radius curves. (BUT for 00 track?)

Again to my eyes the panel lines look way over emphasised. but hey, what do I know. I've had to start wearing glasses!

 

Livery looks a bit off but I've only got pics of 066 in the early GSWP. For the later style of green livery which had the number repositioned to the centre I think the script "Diesel Brake Tender" should be in capitalised lower case and the SYP should extend the full width of the front. There was a lot of variation started after the first repaints so I hope they have based the livery on a photo.

 

 

I was going to buy a Hornby Mag DBT to support the venture but now I'll wait to see on in the flesh before deciding. Looking at the video I'm glad I've still got my ABS stash.

 

P

Edit

Just looking through my DBT prints and I have a phot of B964044 lettered similarly to the model on a Healey Mill loose fitted. The lettering is more centrally placed vertically though.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Porcy Mane

[CME and Bottlewasher]

To my eyes, it looks like there maybe may be a hint of a tumbleholme but that's about it. I'm sure the reproduction of the rivets is a first (Pedant mode on-They were bolt heads in reality.-Pedant mode off) but that tumbleholme should be more prominent. I guess the producers will be claiming it needed to be reduced to allow for clearance the wheels on small radius curves. (BUT for 00 track?)

Again to my eyes the panel lines look way over emphasised. but hey, what do I know. I've had to start wearing glasses!

 

Livery looks a bit off but I've only got pics of 066 in the early GSWP. For the later style of green livery which had the number repositioned to the centre I think the script "Diesel Brake Tender" should be in capitalised lower case and the SYP should extend the full width of the front. There was a lot of variation started after the first repaints so I hope they have based the livery on a photo.

 

 

I was going to buy a Hornby Mag DBT to support the venture but now I'll wait to see on in the flesh before deciding. Looking at the video I'm glad I've still got my ABS stash.

 

P

Edit

Just looking through my DBT prints and I have a phot of B964044 lettered similarly to the model on a Healey Mill loose fitted. The lettering is more centrally placed vertically though.

Hi,

 

I agree, panel lines look overscale/too wide/too deep, as you say tumbleholme isnt clearly defined (if there at all), also the lettering doesnt look right either (with the latter, due to it being an EP model?), on the prototype the lettering is a mix of upper and lower case, the type-face was a bigger concern amongst other issues on the model. On one side the DBT script should be capitalised/upper case, yet not so on the other as the script/branding is different? Also the positioning of the lettering seems off too.

 

There is something not quite right about the size and shape in terms of ratio - cant put my finger on that aspect though.

 

Do any of the mainstream RTR manufacturers put out a 3D EP (for general comment) prior to comitting to tooling?

 

And there was me thinking that the 'OO' fraternity had it easy! LOL!!

 

ATVB

 

CME

Edited May 14, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Porcy Mane]

And there was me thinking that the 'OO' fraternity had it easy! LOL!!

 

Hornby Mag did. See earlier in the thread. The cads

were commented upon and some changes were made with various revisions occurring. Can't say whether the changes were from input on here though. 

 

There is something not quite right about the size and shape in terms of ratio - cant put my finger on that aspect though.

 

 

CME

Maybe it's the additional vertical panel joints they've decided to add. I've never seen a York built diag.1/555 with those outer two panel joins.

 

...and now you've got me started. They added the bolts for the access panels to the brake cylinders on the vertical joints so I wonder why they've missed the bolts off the horizontal joints.

The side hand rails look to be about 1mm too low.

The centre line for the brake wheel (It would have originally been a 3 spoke job' same as fitted to GUV's and Inside BR brake Vans) seems to be too near the centre.

I think I can see a hint of a pull cord access hole behind the brake wheel. I've only ever seen one York build like this. Most had two per side.

 

The lamp brackets look nice though and in the right position but why didn't they make the buffers look like oleos?

 

I suppose I better shut up. I don't suppose it's really fair commentating on what amounts to a postage stamp sized picture of a sample.

Folk might start calling me Adrian.

 

P

 

Edited to dump the double negative.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Porcy Mane

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hornby Mag did. See earlier in the thread. The cads

were commented upon and some changes were made with various revisions occurring. Can't say whether the changes were from input on here though. 

 

Maybe it's the additional vertical panel joints they've decided to add. I've never seen a York built diag.1/555 with those outer two panel joins.

 

...and now you've got me started. They added the bolts for the access panels to the brake cylinders on the vertical joints so I wonder why they've missed the bolts off the horizontal joints.

The side hand rails look to be about 1mm too low.

The centre line for the brake wheel (It would have originally been a 3 spoke job' same as fitted to GUV's and Inside BR brake Vans) seems to be too near the centre.

I think I can see a hint of a pull cord access hole behind the brake wheel. I've only ever seen one York build like this. Most had two per side.

 

The lamp brackets look nice though and in the right position but why didn't they make the buffers look like oleos?

 

I suppose I better shut up. I don't suppose it's not really fair commentating on what amounts to a postage stamp sized picture of a sample.

Folk might start calling me Adrian.

 

P

Hi,

 

Yes I pretty much concur - Id noticed quite a lot too, yet kept quiet - there still seems some confusion between the Diagrams in terms of the model.

 

I think that we better let others have their say.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[Crantock]

I think it will sell regardless of imperfections.  And regardless of technical accuracy i bet a variant appears with LMS bogies substituted.

 

To me the wheels, plate joins and rivets are too prominent.  

 

And surely, lamps both ends is surely an imperfection too far?

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi,

 

Im sorry to say that the panel lines seem to be in the wrong places and there is virtually no tumblehome, when there should be.  

 

The bogies dont look to be fully retooled but just slightly upgraded with axlebox keeps also not right.  The axlebox shape doesnt seem right, the riveting and other details still looks to be wrong, also the spring stops above the sides which should be at the same level.  The bogie profile is still looks wrong too and very little seems to have been done in terms of alteration to the body or the bogies.  

 

Strange indeed!

 

I am no subject matter expert, yet it seems that some subject matter experts cant get these things right - I am sure it cant be down to manufacturing limitations, but down to design and observation?

 

All in all a real shame.

 

ATVB

 

CME

Edited May 16, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Phatbob]

Biggest issue to me is the omission to me is the "dumb bars" or "life guards" on the bogies.  Easy enough to add them though, but one shouldn't have to.

[Porcy Mane]

Biggest issue to me is the omission to me is the "dumb bars" or "life guards" on the bogies.  Easy enough to add them though, but one shouldn't have to.

Not every DBT had them from new. Scoll down to post #14 in the this test thread to see some examples.

One thing  I've wondered since first reading about the project, is if the inner ends of the bogies would have full rivet detail so that they could be turned through 180 degrees on their pivots so one could hide the coupling pocket when the tender is propelled.

 

P

Edited May 17, 2015 by Porcy Mane

[Enterprisingwestern]

Well I'm not buying one unless Adrian says it's alright.

 

Mike.

[Porcy Mane]

Well I'm not buying one unless Adrian says it's alright.

No need to apply release oil  to  your wallets hinges then.

 

P

Edited May 17, 2015 by Porcy Mane

[Enterprisingwestern]

No need to apply release oil  to  your wallets hinges then.

 

P

 

Moths very safe at the moment.

 

Mike.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Not every DBT had them from new. Scoll down to post #14 in the this test thread to see some examples.

One thing  I've wondered since first reading about the project, is if the inner ends of the bogies would have full rivet detail so that they could be turned through 180 degrees on their pivots so one could hide the coupling pocket when the tender is propelled.

 

P

I agree, not all were fitted with such, yet from photo evidence it seems like most of those with ex LNER bogies did, ie more often than not.

 

I was wondering the very same re bogie turning, ie if I can do the same on my 7mm model - I been trialling the use of magnets for attaching bogies to a couple of my MK1 coaches and was pondering if I could fit those on the BT (a bit awkward on the BT though, due to space and height issues). There is also the problem with drop-down 'hoses' and rotating bogies if the bogies are bolted on - hence my thoughts on using magnets ala my coaching stock. The magnet solution may work better on '00' stock though.

 

I had a nice set of ABS whitemetal bogies which I fitted (the kit's originals were very basic) and they looked superb, but due to coupling trials and tribulations (for BLT/'U' shaped layout working), my interim solution was to use tension-locks and so I didnt want to cut about the ABS bogies to allow such to be fitted with TL's (the ABS bogies shall now go under my two ex LMS MTH BGs), so I have modified and super-detailed a set of Easybuild riveted LMS 9' 0" bogies.

 

None of the aforementioned matters so much on a roundy roundy layout though - hope that helps everyone a little.

 

ATVB

 

CME

Edited May 18, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Porcy Mane]

I agree, not all were fitted with such, yet from photo evidence it seems like most of those with ex LNER bogies did, ie more often than not.

A good few years ago I would have agreed with your observation whole heartedly but as my ever increasing collection of DBT negs and transparencies and ephemera seem to show there was no hard and fast rule.

 

I'm only talking about dia, 1/555 (Lots 3448 & 3500) here, I initially thought that guard irons (Rail guards) were fitted from B964078 onwards having a good number of phots of 078 surrounded by a large selection of its lower numbered compatriots (All ex works) Only 078 had rail guards.

 

043 is a good example I have phots of this tender at Carlisle and Blaydon with no guard irons yet it had acquired them by the time it was allocated to Healey Mills in 1967 All the phots the tender is in Green with no WP.

 

Guard Irons were certainly removed from some tenders later in their existence. 120 had didn't have them whilst working from Acton yard but the mounting brackets remained. I've a good few phots of DBT's in this condition.

 

I assume the probability that bogies were swopped during maintenance. Another visual difference can be the way the bogie stretches were fitted. Some have the recess to the up side but others face down.

 

P

Edited May 18, 2015 by Porcy Mane

[hmrspaul]

A good few years ago I would have agreed with your observation whole heartedly but as my ever increasing collection of DBT negs and transparencies and ephemera seem to show there was no hard and fast rule.

 

I'm only talking about dia, 1/555 (Lots 3448 & 3500) here, I initially thought that guard irons (Rail guards) were fitted from B964078 onwards having a good number of phots of 078 surrounded by a large selection of its lower numbered compatriots (All ex works) Only 078 had rail guards.

 

043 is a good example I have phots of this tender at Carlisle and Blaydon with no guard irons yet it had acquired them by the time it was allocated to Healey Mills in 1967 All the phots the tender is in Green with no WP.

 

Guard Irons were certainly removed from some tenders later in their existence. 120 had didn't have them whilst working from Acton yard but the mounting brackets remained. I've a good few phots of DBT's in this condition.

 

I assume the probability that bogies were swopped during maintenance. Another visual difference can be the way the bogie stretches were fitted. Some have the recess to the up side but others face down.

 

P

Dear P

 

I have kept out of this so far, but yours is unusual in being reasonable.  

 

My collection of photos of these shows all sorts of differences, some have very noticeable plating on the sides, others appear to be completely flush. Where they resheeted? http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/braketender/e3c49be8f

 

Similarly what is all this about tumblehome. Yes some appear to have a slope in on the solebars, but others seem quite straight simply sheeting between the upper and lower webs. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/braketender/e16f136e0

 

And spokes in the handbrake wheel, 3, 4 or 5 all appear in my little selection.

 

I just wish I could have got my friends to measure the one Cond in Hoo. We knew they were in their final days, Goodness knows what we measured instead. It would have been far too difficult to do solo.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[Porcy Mane]

Dear P

 

I have kept out of this so far,

 

I don't blame you. There has been some sensible debate on the DBTs elsewhere on RMweb (and even in this thread)  I just can't find the links at the moment.

 

Similarly what is all this about tumblehome.

 

 

I think I would be fairly safe in saying, "all dependant on builder and diagram Number".

The tumblehome (or lack of it) along approx the bottom 9" of the side sheets. 1/555 York Builds, amongst others had it, as here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49032-pdk-kits-diesel-brake-tender/&do=findComment&comment=558500

 

And here:

Thornaby Shed with Four English Electric Type 3s 1965 by Howie Milburn, on Flickr

 

To my eyes the tumblehome is best seen on the York builds in the area were the drawbar protrudes beyond the body line. Also as the tender aged the start of the roll under started to become more sharply defined along the tender side. Maybe this was due to the frame flexing. I have written elsewhere as due to the DBT wheelbase being almost half of the standard rail length they could start to bounce due to harmonics.

 

Then there were the long bodied DBTs that didn't have the tumblehome. eg 1/556 by Central and Standard.

As here:

Unfitted Freight by Tony, on Flickr

 

and here

https://flic.kr/p/9N2zr5

https://flic.kr/p/dKjdGc

 

 Yes some appear to have a slope in on the solebars, but others seem quite straight simply sheeting between the upper and lower webs. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/braketender/e16f136e0

 

Your photos and others certainly give sway to the idea that there was plenty of re-plating ad patch repairing going on. My photo of 120 in Acton Yard shows areas on the sides that have just been ground back to bare metal with a DA Sander or Angle grinder. Fresh writing has then been applied to bare metal with no priming whatsoever.

 

 

And spokes in the handbrake wheel, 3, 4 or 5 all appear in my little selection.

 

I just wish I could have got my friends to measure the one Cond in Hoo. We knew they were in their final days, Goodness knows what we measured instead. It would have been far too difficult to do solo.

With regard to the York DBT's I feel they were all originally fitted with the GUV type of brake wheel. I have a phot of 103 with that type but a later neg of 103 shows the same side of the DBT to be fitted with a 4 spoke BW after a works visit and repainting into the second style of green livery.

 

Photographs of fairly new diagram 1/156 tenders look like they were fitted with any style of wheel that fell to hand.

I can sympathise with you reluctance to measure a DBT. A few years ago I was shown a photographic collection that included a full survey of two tenders in Barry scrapyard. The guy that took them (Sadly no longer with us) was continually ribbed by his mates as to why he was wasting his film on "such Monstrosities". His answer was that someday someone would want to build a replica.

Good thing is that whatever you measured that day, the drawing will be of use to someone.

 

P

[Porcy Mane]

 

My collection of photos of these shows all sorts of differences, some have very noticeable plating on the sides, others appear to be completely flush. Where they resheeted? http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/braketender/e3c49be8f

Your post motivated me to go on the hunt through my transparency collection. By total coincidence  I have a slide that shows the same DBT being shunted at Reading on 21-March-1980. Fortunately it shows the other side and the sheeting appears to have been replaced in one whole. Access to the vac cyls must have been via the top sheet only. The paint looks brand new. One difference on "my side" is it has a five spoke brake wheel.

 

P

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Dear P

 

I have kept out of this so far, but yours is unusual in being reasonable.

 

My collection of photos of these shows all sorts of differences, some have very noticeable plating on the sides, others appear to be completely flush. Where they resheeted? http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/braketender/e3c49be8f

 

Similarly what is all this about tumblehome. Yes some appear to have a slope in on the solebars, but others seem quite straight simply sheeting between the upper and lower webs. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/braketender/e16f136e0

 

And spokes in the handbrake wheel, 3, 4 or 5 all appear in my little selection.

 

I just wish I could have got my friends to measure the one Cond in Hoo. We knew they were in their final days, Goodness knows what we measured instead. It would have been far too difficult to do solo.

 

Regards

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

As I said I have some pertinent photos purchased from you.

 

BT's seem, as I say to be tricky little beasties and I as I also mentioned a make do and mend solution to a specific problem - therefore I suspect that their maintenance was too.

 

There seemed to be definitive build characteristics, ie tumbleholme or not, yet I am sure lesser components got swapped around as they aged and needed cannibalisation etc.

 

In hindsight I think there are many of us who wish we had taken more measurements and photos of so many aspects of the railway as it was - even more recently there were parts of Swindon whereby I thought to myself, I will photo that in fortnight and when I returned t'was gone! You have done more than most of us though - thank goodness.

 

I think that as you ay, some did have sheeting and patch repairs added, and some had more prominent panels than others, notwithstanding that, the Hornby Mag BT's are, to my eyes, over-scale.

 

ATVB

 

CME

A good few years ago I would have agreed with your observation whole heartedly but as my ever increasing collection of DBT negs and transparencies and ephemera seem to show there was no hard and fast rule.

 

I'm only talking about dia, 1/555 (Lots 3448 & 3500) here, I initially thought that guard irons (Rail guards) were fitted from B964078 onwards having a good number of phots of 078 surrounded by a large selection of its lower numbered compatriots (All ex works) Only 078 had rail guards.

 

043 is a good example I have phots of this tender at Carlisle and Blaydon with no guard irons yet it had acquired them by the time it was allocated to Healey Mills in 1967 All the phots the tender is in Green with no WP.

 

Guard Irons were certainly removed from some tenders later in their existence. 120 had didn't have them whilst working from Acton yard but the mounting brackets remained. I've a good few phots of DBT's in this condition.

 

I assume the probability that bogies were swopped during maintenance. Another visual difference can be the way the bogie stretches were fitted. Some have the recess to the up side but others face down.

 

P

Hi P,

 

Another consideration, with the rail guards one has to remember the change in operations, ie the move from propelling to being hauled/drawn, when propelled they were a requirement and when hauled no longer a requirement, thus removed.

 

Your post motivated me to go on the hunt through my transparency collection. By total coincidence  I have a slide that shows the same DBT being shunted at Reading on 21-March-1980. Fortunately it shows the other side and the sheeting appears to have been replaced in one whole. Access to the vac cyls must have been via the top sheet only. The paint looks brand new. One difference on "my side" is it has a five spoke brake wheel.

 

P

Please see my above comments re the modelled version of this feature/detail.

 

ATVB

 

CME

Edited May 19, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Porcy Mane]

If ever there was an item of rolling stock that lay true the adage, "to make an accurate model, base it on a prototype photograph taken during your modelling period", the DBT is it.