Wright writes.....

[kingfisher24]

On another subject, i am looking at doing a caprotti standard 5mt next and have the donor loco in plain black with the br1c tender. Now i have some of the fittings already, for the linkage on the r/h side infront of the rear driver i plan on using a modified Hornby a4 lubricator drive with Hornby or golden arrow caprotti motion. The parts i don't have are the cam boxes which sit atop the cylinders and also the steam pipes. I have tried every manufacturer i can think of and no joy so far. I know this should possibly be on another thread but i thought someone on here may have an idea.

 

Gary

[Guest Brighton_JunctionLNER]

If you enlarge the photo of Firduassi (I presume that is what you are typing about)  it has got a Banjo Dome , you can see the curved front of the Dome going into the tail of the shape. The Streamlined Dome goes back from the centre to the rear in one line.

that is not a banjo dome!!

[jrg1]

On another subject, i am looking at doing a caprotti standard 5mt next and have the donor loco in plain black with the br1c tender. Now i have some of the fittings already, for the linkage on the r/h side infront of the rear driver i plan on using a modified Hornby a4 lubricator drive with Hornby or golden arrow caprotti motion. The parts i don't have are the cam boxes which sit atop the cylinders and also the steam pipes. I have tried every manufacturer i can think of and no joy so far. I know this should possibly be on another thread but i thought someone on here may have an idea.

 

Gary

I think Crownline did a conversion for the Brit to Duke.

[micklner]

that is not a banjo dome!!

 

Post 9131 the Banjo Dome  is fitted in the  top photo , I never looked at the box .

 

 

Edited February 29, 2016 by micklner

[kingfisher24]

I think Crownline did a conversion for the Brit to Duke.

Aii that is true they did, they also did a conversion kit to make a high running plate stanier 5mt which is basically similar but, as crownline har gone the way of the dodo theyre no longer available. I did think about pdk who do a lot of the former crownline kits but no joy.

 

Gary

[MarkC]

I purchased a s/h Bachmann k3 on friday afternoon at model rail scotland and the conversion is now almost finished. Just needing number and a light weathering job. For the conversion all i did was change the boiler, others have gone further with changing the driving wheels etc but as the undersize Bachmann k3 wheels are not exactly the right size, they are near enough. Besides if i changed the wheels it means a lot more work on the chassis. I may do this at a later date but, for now the loco looks not too bad. Having said this ine thing i have not yet done is fit larger balance weights to the centre set or drivers. The boiler is a shortened Bachmann b1 boiler and Bachmann v1/v3 smokebox. I did most of the conversion on sunday afternoon at the show whilst on breaks. I am planning to do another conversion and when i do i will take snaps of the conversion process.

Thanks for that, Gary. And for posting the pics. Nice job. So the tender coupled to the real 61994 is originally from a K3 too? Interesting. At least part of a K3 made it to preservation!

 

Mark

[jrg1]

Aii that is true they did, they also did a conversion kit to make a high running plate stanier 5mt which is basically similar but, as crownline har gone the way of the dodo theyre no longer available. I did think about pdk who do a lot of the former crownline kits but no joy.

 

Gary

You could try ebay, it is surprising what turns up, and Iain Rice has an exploded view of a scratch gear he built for the Duke in his construction books

[richard i]

On another subject, i am looking at doing a caprotti standard 5mt next and have the donor loco in plain black with the br1c tender. Now i have some of the fittings already, for the linkage on the r/h side infront of the rear driver i plan on using a modified Hornby a4 lubricator drive with Hornby or golden arrow caprotti motion. The parts i don't have are the cam boxes which sit atop the cylinders and also the steam pipes. I have tried every manufacturer i can think of and no joy so far. I know this should possibly be on another thread but i thought someone on here may have an idea.

Gary

There is a chap on here who has 3d printed some, and for tony he is at university so hope got the hobby still.

[kingfisher24]

Thanks for that, Gary. And for posting the pics. Nice job. So the tender coupled to the real 61994 is originally from a K3 too? Interesting. At least part of a K3 made it to preservation!

 

Mark

Mark

 

Sadly that isnt the case, when the loco was preserved a tender from a j38 was substituted - i cannot remember which j38 it came off but i do know that it originally came off a k4 when the k4's got the ex k3 tenders. There is a yeadon book which gives the exact details.

 

Gary

[edcayton]

Post 9131 the Banjo Dome  is fitted in the  top photo , I never looked at the box .

 

1 a fir.jpg

 

It would appear that the box illustration shows a Railroad version with the simplified livery.

 

Ed

[micklner]

It would appear that the box illustration shows a Railroad version with the simplified livery.

 

Ed

 

Box looks like a renumbered a Hornby  Book Law, definitely not a Railroad version. I haven't checked but Firduassi I believe as built should have the higher Cab Sides as well.

[gr.king]

I was wondering how long lined frames, lined wheels, lined out firebox mudhole covers, finescale tender and finescale valve gear have been features of any Railroad model......

Edited March 1, 2016 by gr.king

[Izzy]

The GER, ScR and LMR units had Gresley 8ft 6 ins double bolster bogies fitted with roller bearings on the trailer coaches. The motor cars had a BR design power bogie that was based on the Gresely principal of outside frame with inside springs. The AM7 having been built at Eastleigh had some SR design of bogie that made the Gresely fitted stock seem like luxury. Later the 307s were fitted with BR5 bogies.

 

AM9s were fitted with Commonwealth bogies, the best riding of all Mk1 design stock especially when doing a ton. :locomotive: :locomotive:

 

 

These bogies were appalling under the AM4 (304) units when they first appeared on Liverpool-Crewe in the 1960s - especially in contrast to the LMS electric sets we were used to on Southport and Wirral lines.

 

 

Oh the 309's!  Possibly the best ever EMU's. Fast and comfortable and handsome when they were new with the big wrap around windows. I spent may hours on them up and down to L'Pool Street and always looked out for a set when returning home. I would love to model one but the complex front curves are very difficult though you can use a Mark one for the main body. It would suit a  resin type casting. Any takers (in 7mm)?

 

Martin Long

 

 

The Clacton units had Commonwealth bogies throughout, including the motor bogies, which had a longer wheelbase.

 

AM9_601-618-625_Stratford_0948-Clacton-LivSt_4-7-64 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

SR EMUs that had CW trailer bogies, such as the Phase II 4 Cep/Bep units and the later BR 2 Hap units, did not have CW motor bogies and the 2 Haps did not have them on the leading end of the driving trailer either, as this had a shoebeam.

 

CW bogies were standard on passenger-carrying Mark I stock built from approximately 1960 (may have been 1961 apart from the Pullmans which appeared in 1960). A few RUs were fitted with Gresley bogies in an effort to improve on the ride compared to their original BR bogies.

 

E1928_APR-73 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

 

  AM6/306 had what have been described as 'Thompson' bogies, but were probably a MetCamm standard bogie. AM7/307 also had normally framed bogie which I suspect as the same as Eastleigh were fitting to contemporary SR stock.                                                                                                                                                                

 

Thank you to everybody who has posted with regard to my original comments re the 309's and bogies, the information is most useful. As a few might know I am trying - struggling - to build a 4-car unit in N/2mm. This is using the worsley works etches mated to Farish pullmans to get the commonwealth bogies (Bachmann won't sell individual bogies in N), but as I want to finish the unit in the original condition, maroon with the curved windows - as I originally rode on them - it's proving rather more difficult than I anticipated as the etches have the later flat window ends and need adapting. Just adding driving ends to standard mk1's doesn't really work, as none of the designs match, they were just based around mk1 design. I have often wondered if the Swindon built 123 DMU's were of similar design, as they also had curved driving end windows, but have never got around to checking the diagram books to see.

 

I attach a photo of the first end which shows how crude the results are to date, I can't seem to get the roof/corridor connection profiles right, and how far I still have to go. I'll get there eventually, as I did with my Class 15, but sometimes you do wonder.........

 

 

Now to don sackcloth and ashes for taking this thread of it's ECML/steam roots.......

 

apologies Tony,

 

Izzy

[MarkC]

Mark

 

Sadly that isnt the case, when the loco was preserved a tender from a j38 was substituted - i cannot remember which j38 it came off but i do know that it originally came off a k4 when the k4's got the ex k3 tenders. There is a yeadon book which gives the exact details.

 

Gary

Ah, what a shame

 

Thanks for the info though, Gary.

[Focalplane]

 

 

Now to don sackcloth and ashes for taking this thread of it's ECML/steam roots.......

 

apologies Tony,

 

Izzy

 

Izzy

 

It would seem I must get a whole wardrobe of sackcloth.  Ash is part of my name so that at least is covered.  But I think Tony's main topic is actually as much about building locomotives, of any origin or scale, as it is the one particular region he actually models.

 

Paul

[Mallard60022]

That AM9 thing in maroon looks really good...................................OK, I've already gone.

Phil

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mallard60022

[polybear]

Aii that is true they did, they also did a conversion kit to make a high running plate stanier 5mt which is basically similar but, as crownline har gone the way of the dodo theyre no longer available. I did think about pdk who do a lot of the former crownline kits but no joy.

 

Gary

 This is a long shot, but have you tried DMR Kits?  Mike Russell sells a lot of "bits" as well as kits.  However, just to complicate matters Mike has now sold the kits range (not sure about the "bits") to Pheonix Precision Paints, which is worrying.....

 

HTH

Brian

[dibateg]

Caprotti Standard 5:-

 

The parts i don't have are the cam boxes which sit atop the cylinders and also the steam pipes. I have tried every manufacturer i can think of and no joy so far. I know this should possibly be on another thread but i thought someone on here may have an idea.

 

Gary

 

Gary, I know Modelu has just printed some of those cam boxes in 7mm scale, it might be worth contacting Alan via his web site. He can easily reproduce them in 4mm I'm sure.

 

http://www.modelu3d.co.uk/

 

Regards

Tony

[MJI]

A few things I have thought of.

 

Did Tony see the chap who had a Virgin thing block his view of Flying Scotsman?

 

Weathering and blue grey period.

 

I can remember that blue did not tend to highlight the dirt that well, and with washing plants, really dirty stock was quite rare.

 

What there was though was various states of shinyness. Most stock looks satiny with stock requiring repaints as more matt, there was a nice sheen to recent repaints. Occasionally dirt on the  bottom of the bodysides, but a run through a carriage wash and again it looks clean.

 

In 4mm you can get away with a slight sheen on carriages and very little body weathering, most on roof and ends. Underframes though, that is where weathering fun comes in, lots of brake dust a really matt dusty brown colour.

 

When I weather I tend to spray underframes in track dirt with no bodies. This reminds me I have a big pile of chassis to spray.

 

Locos are a different matter, grills, exhaust ports, Diesel runs, more weathering required, if you can bear to weather a nice paint job. I really need to do this.

[Tony Wright]

First, my thanks to all those who've kept this thread extremely busy in my absence. Who needs my contributions, anyway? 

 

Continuing with anyway, might I catch up on a few things, please?

 

Banjo domes; thanks to all those who've commented (Hi Jessie!) - only fitted to the final batch of A3s, WINDSOR LAD to BROWN JACK, and then (probably) only until their first boiler change. I've never seen it recorded, but a metal-basher at Doncaster must have seen how much easier it was to make the 'streamlined' dome cover - the sort fitted to the V2s, the A2/1s, the A2/2s, the A1/1 and the Peppercorn Pacifics when new (and subsequently to the A2/3s). Beware both the RCTS green series (2A), and Peter Coster because they both get into a hopeless muddle with the descriptions of A3s boilers/domes! The banjo dome has caused more controversy that any other appendage on top of a steam loco's boiler in my view, though what was underneath (a perforated steam collector) was the same whatever the shape of the elongated dome (apart from those Peppercorn A1s fitted with a round-dome boiler, which had a streamlined cover). Wills must have liked it so much to have included it in its A3 and A2 kits. FLYING SCOTSMAN was even shown on the box lid of the former, even though the loco NEVER sported one. Millholme followed suit with its A2/2 and A2/3 kits, but so much was wrong with the rest of the kits that nobody noticed the dreaded banjo dome. Tri-ang, too (and Trix) happily fitted the banjo dome to all their various A3s, none of which ever carried it in real life. Trix also put it on its A2, but since the also supplied a corridor tender (and a way-out-of-loading-gauge chassis), nobody commented. Look through various spare parts suppliers - the banjo dome is (was) king (Micklner has all mine). The culprits, with regard to the wrong fitting of the banjo dome? Mr Roche and Mr Beattie in my view. 

 

Rebuilt Gresley Buffet Cars; Many thanks to Bill Bedford for the information. 

 

Tenders behind K4s; I bow to those more knowledgeable, though I fitted the small GS tender to my scratch-built one (as preserved), unfortunately now rather smashed up - brass locos don't take kindly to being dropped on a hard floor (not by me). 

 

Other prototypes than my main interest; why not - the more the merrier. 

 

Glossy models looking like the real thing? 

 

 

Would this look right on a model, especially if it were made of aluminium foil? 

 

My reason for being absent from this thread was my attendance at the Glasgow Show over the weekend. Yes, I know there are things like i-phones, tablets and other mysterious devices. The thing is, I don't own anything like that. I have a decade-old mobile phone, I don't know its number and I never use it. 

 

What a wonderful show! There is none more friendly in the realm; the organisation is exemplary, with no yellow-vested fascists - just bods who only want to help. Thank you all. It's classed as a 'family show', and, as such, has among its exhibits some 'lemons' (or that's how Steve Flint describes them). Lemons or not, these all-action roundy-roundies with everything from road accidents to waterfalls, and drumlins through which a tunnel has been dug (even though all around the terrain is flat), Golden Gate lookalikes carrying no more than a lane (which very shortly crosses the railway again via a level-crossing) and right-angle bends modelled on a roller-coaster are very popular with kids. 

 

However, the 'top-end' for 'scale' modellers (why did Steve look at me when he said that, for I'm most definitely not?) was more than adequately catered for. 

 

 

 

My personal favourite was Blackgill in P4, by Eddie Ford. What an atmospheric rendition of goods workings in the NE, brilliantly captured. Being P4, I naturally inspected the running with great interest. It was almost perfect (just a couple of wagon derailments when being propelled). It was, however, very slow (realistic?) and I would have loved to have seen those 9Fs storming through. A future challenge? Another P4 layout had a few derailments (because of my presence?), though it is getting on. Again, though speedy locos were present in the background, none ran fast. It was, however, beautifully presented. 

 

In fairness, derailments were not confined to the most accurate gauges. An HO creation seemed to suffer frequent derailments (because of the high-speed?). There were a few more instances of the hand of God being needed, but the general standard of running was very good (especially on the lemons, and the Hornby-Dublo and Tri-ang systems). The running was also very good on the layout from the Aberdeen Club (thanks for your comments, Gavin). What an eager bunch these chaps are (because so few of them are old gits like me?). I reckon this bunch will go places before long (though, whoever you are, lose that ridiculous hat!). They took on board all my observations and criticisms (with wonderfully good grace), and smugly (with justification) asked me to return to find the right locos on the right trains, and those trains being made up in a much more realistic fashion. Look out for their layout as it progresses - it'll be worth seeing. I was a clot for not taking any pictures.

 

One of my duties was to pick the winning layout of the Scottish Association Cup. Blackgill is not an associate, but it still would have been a damn close-run thing between it and my choice, Alloa. Built by members of the Scottish Region Study Group in OO, what a superb depiction Alloa is.

 

 

 

 

The group let my A2 run on Alloa (despite this, it still won!) - thank you kindly. I found myself in a dilemma at times, with regard to my judging. Should knowing them well (and being friends), preclude a group from winning? Especially, as my second and third choices were built by guys I know well? 

 

 

 

Another layout which took my eye (though I know nothing of the prototype) was Purgatory Peak, a North American logging line from the Macclesfield MRG. This was DCC which worked perfectly!

 

 

Speaking of DCC (or at least in part). Do any other modellers find the plug-in connection between the loco and tender of DCC-compatible RTR locos an absolute fag? At £99.99 for a Hornby Britannia from Locomotion, I couldn't resist. It won't stay the same for long (EARL HAIG), but will be a guinea pig for a chapter in a book I'm writing for Crowood Press. On separating the loco from tender, one of the leads came out of the plug. So, stuff this nonsense. Off with the top, snip the snake's nest of wires off, and just take the two wires to the motor direct (naturally, I soldered them on the wrong way round to begin with). I have decent track, so don't need tender pick-ups anyway. How much easier is this? No wires dragging, and the loco runs independent of its tender. No DCC, so no complication. You DCC guys must be happy with the way these things are configured at source, or do you get others to fix things up for you? I'd be surprised if you did.

 

For my part, I manned (my wife womanned) a loco/carriage-building stand in the main (when I was not off being critical, judging or just plain wind-bagging). My most grateful thanks to all those who came up for a chat. I certainly leaned a lot.

 

Finally, my most grateful thanks to all those who put together the Glasgow Show and for inviting me. Six years ago, I let the Association down by not attending. That won't happen again.  

Edited March 1, 2016 by Tony Wright

[MikeOxon]

.................the general standard of running was very good (especially on the lemons, and the Hornby-Dublo and Tri-ang systems)..................

 

A pause for thought, here.  While the idea of 'true scale' is good, aren't a few compromises worthwhile, in order to achieve reliable running?  After all, we know that linear dimensions, areas (such as flange contact areas), and volumes (which determine weight) do not scale in the same proportions, so a model cannot have the same dynamics as the real thing.

[Focalplane]

You DCC guys must be happy with the way these things are configured at source, or do you get others to fix things up for you? I'd be surprised if you did.

 

 

As I no longer buy RTR (never say never) I have to do my own DCC wiring.  It is not at all difficult, even with a sound decoder, speaker and stay alive capacitor.  My latest two models now have the ability to change from DC to DCC relatively easily by installing an 8 pin socket between pickups and motor terminals.  When running DC a "blank" plug is fitted, when on DCC the decoder is plugged in.  OK, the body has to come off each time but I won't be doing the switch over very often.

 

As to tender pickups, I agree that having a tethered tender is a pain, particularly as the plug and socket can be a bit too fiddly for my fingers and joints.  The stay alive capacitor is a great way to avoid stalling on poor track.

 

My Midland 4F is almost at the stage where the decoder wiring will be installed.  When I get around to it (after Kettering) I will take some photos and post them.

[Tony Wright]

Just one more comment on ripply surfaces on models compared with the real thing..........................................

 

 

It's not just the locomotive which has wiggles.

 

Two more pictures from the weekend. Lanarkshire Model Supplies is expanding its range of proper-sized lamps. In this case, LMS and BR tail lamps for 4mm. 

 

 

 

As usual, I cocked-up the arrangement of pictures, but they're both there.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Tony Wright

[johndon]

 

 

It was, however, very slow (realistic?) and I would have loved to have seen those 9Fs storming through.

 

 

 

At the location on the Tyne Dock to Consett line that the layout is based at, the gradient ensured that nothing stormed through

 

John

[Clive Mortimore]

Thank you to everybody who has posted with regard to my original comments re the 309's and bogies, the information is most useful. As a few might know I am trying - struggling - to build a 4-car unit in N/2mm. This is using the worsley works etches mated to Farish pullmans to get the commonwealth bogies (Bachmann won't sell individual bogies in N), but as I want to finish the unit in the original condition, maroon with the curved windows - as I originally rode on them - it's proving rather more difficult than I anticipated as the etches have the later flat window ends and need adapting. Just adding driving ends to standard mk1's doesn't really work, as none of the designs match, they were just based around mk1 design. I have often wondered if the Swindon built 123 DMU's were of similar design, as they also had curved driving end windows, but have never got around to checking the diagram books to see.

 

I attach a photo of the first end which shows how crude the results are to date, I can't seem to get the roof/corridor connection profiles right, and how far I still have to go. I'll get there eventually, as I did with my Class 15, but sometimes you do wonder.........

 

we size 2.jpg

 

Now to don sackcloth and ashes for taking this thread of it's ECML/steam roots.......

 

apologies Tony,

 

Izzy

Hi Izzy

 

Cant wait to see it finished.

 

The AM9s were Mk1 based but as you say did not match any of the standard loco hauled coaches, except the second opens in the Walton sets. When the 2 car sets were rebuilt as 4 car units and the buffets were removed from the Clacton sets, Mk1 loco hauled coaches were modified to run in the then class 309 units.

 

The Swindon 4 car inter-city sets had a similar looking front but when you look closely they differ in so many ways I don't know where to start. All the Swindon DMUs looked like they were to a Mk1 design but the profile was totally different, it is very similar (if not the same) as a Mk2 coach without the sharp curve at the bottom covering the solbar. One of the Clacton 4 car units had a buffet that started life in a Swindon DMU. It was easy to tell by its B4 bogies.

 

Just before they were refurbished the country end in the driving composites were downgraded to second. Those in the know rushed to get a single armchair seat in the old buffet sets, as the first class in them was an open saloon. Others rushed to have a seat in an ex first class compartment of the Walton sets, no taste.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Clive Mortimore