Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

Not quite. Surely O9 is 'code' for 9mm gauge track with 'O gauge' stock - but at what scale? 1:43.5, 1:48, 1:45, and so on. And at different scales that 9mm will represent different narrow gauge sizes.

 

The scale gauge combination can be very confusing to the public so as model railway enthusiasts why do we insist on perpetuating that confusion with rather meaningless terms like 'N scale'?

 

G.

What about the old Airfix "00/H0 constant scale" kits?

[Clive Mortimore]

I agree with your four statements, Clive, but I don't know if there's any mention of RTR versus kit-built, other than tangentially with regard to haulage. 

 

I'm very much in favour of improvements in RTR and how those improvements might well be bringing folk into or back into the hobby (as alluded to by MickLNER). That said and despite my praise of it, I've decided it's now not for me; a personal choice fitting in very well with your four statements. As I said, I find the situation very liberating and am currently making six kits; four locos and two carriages. In only one case of the six is there a current RTR alternative, so it's very much a case of needs must. 

Hi Tony

 

I have given some thought to your statement "but I don't know if there's any mention of RTR versus kit-built". In reading past post again there is an under current within the writing of several of the contributors on this thread that unless you build your own then you are a lesser modeller. Surely for the hobby to survive we have to accept that people have differing levels of skills, time, commitment, finances etc. but as long as they are enjoying their modelling so what.

 

As a diesel modeller my experience of diesel kits is not a happy one, and one that would make most modellers throw their arms in the air and start jogging or some other physical pursuit  as it would be less painful. As a diesel modeller who scratchbuilds (now and then) I have had problems but they have been my problems not those of someone else and that should not have been included in the price of the kit.

 

In another post you mentioned about those who commission models. in the past I have made some of my plastic card locos for friends, the only charge has been for the power unit if not supplied. Even then I had some bloke moan about the loco not being right, funny how friendships can end. Today I don't make locos for other people but I am more than willing to show them how to make their own. 

 

Last thing about kit locos having better haulage, this in many cases can be true but I have seen some kits so badly made that the loco can only just haul its self along. Now what was the name of that diesel layout I saw this on, Hangman's Mound? :locomotive:

Edited August 17, 2016 by Clive Mortimore

[grahame]

 

In reading past post again there is an under current within the writing of several of the contributors on this thread that unless you build your own then you are a lesser modeller. Surely for the hobby to survive we have to accept that people have differing levels of skills, time, commitment, finances etc. but as long as they are enjoying their modelling so what.

 

Yep, I agree that it can come across that way at times, and that is not right. But I'm finding that (not so much on this thread but certainly on others and on other forums) that sort of accusation often cuts both ways. There are many 'enthusiasts' who denigrate the effort and skill of model making for oneself, supported by a dreadful range of name calling such as 'rivet counter', 'perfectionists', 'elitist' and so on aimed at those who try to improve their game. Some are even saying that the hobby can do without kits and it's only RTR that looks good.

 

We're all model railway enthusiasts so why is there such a need to point out and denigrate individual foibles and preferences, criticise and humiliate?

 

G.

[Mallard60022]

Our hobby is a 'broad church' (no not that Broadchurch, but some would have it that way) and long may it be so. There will always be a few who can not 'accept' but have to criticise, however that is how a community is whatever the circumstances. 

My strategy is to admire and learn (if I can) but know my limitations. I also enjoy other people's success and enjoyment, even if it isn't top drawer work.

The Biblical Commandment (part) of 'Love thy neighbour' is sadly not part on many people's thinking these days in all sorts of ways. 

Fortunately the modellers I meet with regularly, in the real world, are generally tolerant, understanding and have a sense of humour. Those four (yup, just 4) blokes are grand fellows. The quiz question is, are you one of the four?

My virtual 'club (RMWeb) friends' include these four but also includes  a whole host of people. However, I can choose when, how, where and with whom I interact and that works most of the time. Several of these 'virtual' fellows I have actually met in the flesh (no sniggering please) and they turned out to be top blokes too. 

Plenty of people on RMWeb think I'm an idiot. I don't give a stuff.

Long live model railways in all its forms (except for maybe T gauge)   

Phil

[Tony Wright]

Our hobby is a 'broad church' (no not that Broadchurch, but some would have it that way) and long may it be so. There will always be a few who can not 'accept' but have to criticise, however that is how a community is whatever the circumstances. 

My strategy is to admire and learn (if I can) but know my limitations. I also enjoy other people's success and enjoyment, even if it isn't top drawer work.

The Biblical Commandment (part) of 'Love thy neighbour' is sadly not part on many people's thinking these days in all sorts of ways. 

Fortunately the modellers I meet with regularly, in the real world, are generally tolerant, understanding and have a sense of humour. Those four (yup, just 4) blokes are grand fellows. The quiz question is, are you one of the four?

My virtual 'club (RMWeb) friends' include these four but also includes  a whole host of people. However, I can choose when, how, where and with whom I interact and that works most of the time. Several of these 'virtual' fellows I have actually met in the flesh (no sniggering please) and they turned out to be top blokes too. 

Plenty of people on RMWeb think I'm an idiot. I don't give a stuff.

Long live model railways in all its forms (except for maybe T gauge)   

Phil

Phil,

 

I suspect (in fact I know) that anyone who takes you for an idiot is idiotic themselves. It is foolish to underestimate anyone. 

 

Accepting that I'm most certainly not a grand fellow, I've come up with three (grand fellows) you might be referring to and I'm puzzling as to the fourth. 

 

Referring to criticism, I actively seek it out. That's how I learn. I frequently criticise, but I hope it's constructive. Just passing nasty comments about folk's work shows more about the inadequacies of the commentator than any poor work on the part of he/she being picked-on. It's easy to be critical, but I try to temper mine by helping others, either as a demonstrator at shows these days, as a tutor at weekend courses or on a one-to-one basis here. 

 

In my days in full-time model railway journalistic/photographic employment, I was in a very good position. On hearing someone pointing out something wrong about a layout/model, I would immediately ask them what was wrong? How did they know? Did they have the evidence to back up their observation? Could they do things better, more efficiently, cheaper, more accurately and if they could, could I pop round and photograph their work? It was amazing how often those products of parents who never married evaporated away! 

 

I don't detect Clive Mortimer's suggestion of an undercurrent of others looking down on those who don't make things themselves. That doesn't mean to say that I'm as interested in looking at models which have just been bought or made on commission (however good they might be) as I am in those which folk have made themselves. Yesterday, three old friends came round as usual (we call ourselves the four old gits!) to operate the railway, and that operation was (almost) perfect. Gentlemen, I thank you. They were full of praise at the progress made, but I made sure (I insisted) that they understood how much of that progress was down to others - the likes of Bob Dawson, Scott Waterfield, Ian Wilson and Tom Foster of late. Typically, though, being me, I made sure they ran the new locos I'd made.

 

I think my final observation on 'criticism' is that folk generally get rumbled. Those who criticise without foundation are quickly avoided, those who claim credit for the work of others are also quickly found out and those who just talk about what brilliant models they're going to make (but never do) quickly find people without ears. As long as folk are prepared to have a go and make things for themselves (however humble) the majority of posters on this thread (indeed, all) will show interest and give encouragement. That's my view, anyway. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Mallard60022]

Tony, you are in the fine fellow club! That makes 4! However you may have forgotten PMP? Does that then make 5 fine fellows?

 

"On hearing someone pointing out something wrong about a layout/model, I would immediately ask them what was wrong? How did they know? Did they have the evidence to back up their observation? Could they do things better, more efficiently, cheaper, more accurately and if they could, could I pop round and photograph their work? It was amazing how often those products of parents who never married evaporated away! "      Classic.

Phil

[Manxman1831]

I try, in all walks of my life, to provide constructive criticism to those around me.  Not all of the time, mind you, that would get very tiring, very quickly.  I have made models of some outlandish prototypes, and plan on making more in the future, and know how awkward it can be for evidence about details to appear after I've made the decision to go down another route.

 

This sounds like gibberish, but is really a response to Tony's final comment above.  Perhaps the top two comments I've heard over the past five years have been "What's that?!" and "Why did you make one of those?!"  Suitable answers also include "Because I could".

 

In my stud of locos, I have the GCR 1914 Baldwin 2-10-2 design, Peppercorn's February 1946 4-8-2 design, Hughes' 1913 L&YR 2-10-0 design, as well as the two North British Loco Works turbine eperiments - the 1909 Ramsay and 1923 MacLeod.  I have 'normal' machines, too, just for fun - Gresley A1 Tracery (as she operated on the GC with streamlined tender), a Holden designed LNER J70, a Fowler 'Patriot' Isle of Man, and a soon-to-be-completed rebuilt 'Turbomotive' Princess Anne.  My dream collection would see this lot joined by the Paget 2-6-2, Bulleid's Leader, Robinson's 9P Valour and possibly Bulleid's first 'Merchant Navy' Channel Packet in original condition.

 

I don't claim to 'Know it all', indeed I often prefer to be wrong about something/someone, and have them show me how they can improve whatever it is they have been criticised for.  I have also tried to encourage younger modellers to produce their own models/layouts, just to show them that they can do what they thought they were incapable of.

[Tony Wright]

I try, in all walks of my life, to provide constructive criticism to those around me.  Not all of the time, mind you, that would get very tiring, very quickly.  I have made models of some outlandish prototypes, and plan on making more in the future, and know how awkward it can be for evidence about details to appear after I've made the decision to go down another route.

 

This sounds like gibberish, but is really a response to Tony's final comment above.  Perhaps the top two comments I've heard over the past five years have been "What's that?!" and "Why did you make one of those?!"  Suitable answers also include "Because I could".

 

In my stud of locos, I have the GCR 1914 Baldwin 2-10-2 design, Peppercorn's February 1946 4-8-2 design, Hughes' 1913 L&YR 2-10-0 design, as well as the two North British Loco Works turbine eperiments - the 1909 Ramsay and 1923 MacLeod.  I have 'normal' machines, too, just for fun - Gresley A1 Tracery (as she operated on the GC with streamlined tender), a Holden designed LNER J70, a Fowler 'Patriot' Isle of Man, and a soon-to-be-completed rebuilt 'Turbomotive' Princess Anne.  My dream collection would see this lot joined by the Paget 2-6-2, Bulleid's Leader, Robinson's 9P Valour and possibly Bulleid's first 'Merchant Navy' Channel Packet in original condition.

 

I don't claim to 'Know it all', indeed I often prefer to be wrong about something/someone, and have them show me how they can improve whatever it is they have been criticised for.  I have also tried to encourage younger modellers to produce their own models/layouts, just to show them that they can do what they thought they were incapable of.

What an eminently sensible post. 

[Tony Wright]

Tony, you are in the fine fellow club! That makes 4! However you may have forgotten PMP? Does that then make 5 fine fellows?

 

"On hearing someone pointing out something wrong about a layout/model, I would immediately ask them what was wrong? How did they know? Did they have the evidence to back up their observation? Could they do things better, more efficiently, cheaper, more accurately and if they could, could I pop round and photograph their work? It was amazing how often those products of parents who never married evaporated away! "      Classic.

Phil

Phil,

 

Of course, the man of mystery. I have two of Paul's figures on LB, with which I'm absolutely delighted. Four, and counting, fine fellows I'd say - and me!

[New Haven Neil]

I'm with Phil that it is a broad church and we should all get along - but there are elitists in the hobby, and the critical element Tony mentions, and those who just like to denigrate.  We should deal with them all as Tony suggests!  As a US outline modeller on a small island that likes to think of 3 foot as standard gauge, I'm out on a limb here - there is one other NMRA member.  I don't criticize the Manx models I see though - far from it - I like 'em all.  Doesn't always work the other way around....the boy with green hair? 

 

We all have something to learn, and we're never too old to learn.  I have limitations, for sure, some physical, (I have slightly shaky hands), some that are probably laziness or a sense of inadequacy in comparison to some of the great models seen on here and elsewhere, but this sort of thread provides the inspiration for me to keep plugging away.

 

I need to meet Manxman1831, a man not entirely 3 foot gauge it would appear! A great selection of locos modelled.

[96701]

Several of these 'virtual' fellows I have actually met in the flesh (no sniggering please) and they turned out to be top blokes too. 

 

Phil

Awwwwww, thanks, Phil. 

[Theakerr]

I am a bit of a collector of "lines" and at times the forum remind me of a couple that I try to live my life by.  

The first is "tread softly for you tread on my dreams".  Some people seem to get a thrill out of destroying the dreams of others.  Perhaps they do it because, sadly they have no dreams of their own.  Fortunately those individuals are rare on this forum and for the most part (like 99%) the members are supportive, helpful without being critical and honest without being obnoxious.  My model railway is my dream - whatever that may be but, it is "my dream" as your model should be your dream.  Don't ever let anyone trad on it.

The second is "never say more than you think will be heard".  Unfortunately the forum does seem to have a number of patrons who do not follow this approach to postings.  I find it interesting that posters who fall into said catagory tend to be the dream treaders  and I do wonder if they have actually ever done anything themselves (as referenced several times in the thread).  The good thing is that I have a mind that can reject such nonsense and a mouse that lets me move on from their post.   Enough, I used to be a Metallurgist not a philosipher so now back to my "used  - read cheap - "Hockey Stick Display Cabinet" conversion to a "Model Railway Display Cabinet"  4 rows each about 65" long

[St Enodoc]

I am a bit of a collector of "lines" and at times the forum remind me of a couple that I try to live my life by.  

The first is "tread softly for you tread on my dreams".  Some people seem to get a thrill out of destroying the dreams of others.  Perhaps they do it because, sadly they have no dreams of their own.  Fortunately those individuals are rare on this forum and for the most part (like 99%) the members are supportive, helpful without being critical and honest without being obnoxious.  My model railway is my dream - whatever that may be but, it is "my dream" as your model should be your dream.  Don't ever let anyone trad on it.

The second is "never say more than you think will be heard".  Unfortunately the forum does seem to have a number of patrons who do not follow this approach to postings.  I find it interesting that posters who fall into said catagory tend to be the dream treaders  and I do wonder if they have actually ever done anything themselves (as referenced several times in the thread).  The good thing is that I have a mind that can reject such nonsense and a mouse that lets me move on from their post.   Enough, I used to be a Metallurgist not a philosipher so now back to my "used  - read cheap - "Hockey Stick Display Cabinet" conversion to a "Model Railway Display Cabinet"  4 rows each about 65" long

Top of my list is "treat others as you would like them to treat you".

[St Enodoc]

Our hobby is a 'broad church' (no not that Broadchurch, but some would have it that way) and long may it be so. There will always be a few who can not 'accept' but have to criticise, however that is how a community is whatever the circumstances. 

My strategy is to admire and learn (if I can) but know my limitations. I also enjoy other people's success and enjoyment, even if it isn't top drawer work.

The Biblical Commandment (part) of 'Love thy neighbour' is sadly not part on many people's thinking these days in all sorts of ways. 

Fortunately the modellers I meet with regularly, in the real world, are generally tolerant, understanding and have a sense of humour. Those four (yup, just 4) blokes are grand fellows. The quiz question is, are you one of the four?

My virtual 'club (RMWeb) friends' include these four but also includes  a whole host of people. However, I can choose when, how, where and with whom I interact and that works most of the time. Several of these 'virtual' fellows I have actually met in the flesh (no sniggering please) and they turned out to be top blokes too. 

Plenty of people on RMWeb think I'm an idiot. I don't give a stuff.

Long live model railways in all its forms (except for maybe T gauge)   

Phil

Phil, I was going to click "Agree" until I saw the bit about T Gauge! I've got a T Gauge starter set which in the fullness of time will become a miniature railway on the seafront at Pentowan.

[Tony Wright]

Wise words in the last few posts, gentlemen, and my thanks for them. Unfortunately, 25 years at the chalk face sometimes gave me different maxims, such as 'do on to others before they can do it on to you', but I'm a natural cynic I'm afraid. 

 

But, enough of cynicism. 

 

 

Having adopted a 'broad brush' approach to the modelling on LB for the last few months, it was time for some detailing. Occasionally, just adding a few details can 'lift' a model in a way that's quite surprising (at least to me), especially as they might only constitute a tiny fraction of the whole scene. In less than two hours, I'd made the boards shown here from plastic bits, fixed on Ian Wilson's printed signs (you can ACTUALLY read the GNR sign), planted them, added two telegraph poles (one redundant - why, I wonder?), weathered the brass weighbridge, fixed it down and made and installed the guard rail. The last-mentioned was actually made from code 75 rail, because I think the real thing was made from old rail. What a difference. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Tony Wright

[LNER4479]

"tread softly for you tread on my dreams". 

You gotta have a dream. If you don't have a dream then how you gonna make your dream come true?

(someone ought to make that into a song)

[great central]

You gotta have a dream. If you don't have a dream then how you gonna make your dream come true?

(someone ought to make that into a song)

Nooooooo!!! Thanks for nothing, got that awful song going round in my head now! Remember being taken to see the film by my dad, hated it then hate it even more now!

[Mallard60022]

Slightly OT but I have just heard from dave at Southern Pride about a Gresley Corridor Artic set of etches. It would seem I can get a set on a fret containing EB1 & EB2 as Dave is ordering now. If anyone wants a set of Gresley sides EB2 (& EB1?) on the SP site then contact him now as the order is at the Etchers. The etch he is getting me includes a non gangwayed set as well (I'm paying £25 + P & P) as both come on one etch. I shall have an EB1 spare at some time as I do not require those and Dave has plenty of those in stock so he is doing the fret for me as a special favour.

Just for info in case anyone was interested. I'm sure he would 'extend the favour'.

Phil 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Mallard60022

[LNER4479]

Er...wrong musical. Think Hawaiian Island, not the land formerly known as Siam (neither of which were ever names of LMS Jubilees, sez he, desperately trying to come up with a railway connection)

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

 but he was better in the Magnificent 7 IMO. 

 

Phil

 

Good heavens, I didn't know Captain Sensible was in the Magnificent 7. 

[teaky]

Nooooooo!!! Thanks for nothing, got that awful song going round in my head now! Remember being taken to see the film by my dad, hated it then hate it even more now!

It's nice to see you're happy to talk about it though. 

[Tony Wright]

The hobby at the crossroads thread continues to interest, and is stimulating some lively debate. 

 

Today, I was speaking to a major 4mm kit supplier. His market is contracting, but he still keeps going and is actually re-introducing some kits previously available in other ranges. He made me chuckle (we both did) when he said he's frequently asked now for spare parts for kits some have bought on e-Bay which have been started (what made us chuckle was the daft prices paid in some cases - more than for an equivalent brand-new kit). 

 

I'll be building at least two of his new loco kits in the near future, for several reasons. For one, and without my being noble (which I'm not) they're going to two different publications to try and get maximum publicity. Two, I'll be building one model for him, for display at shows. Three, one of the same models I'll build for myself. 

 

There were several areas which concerned us, including the age-profile in the main of folk who are buying the kits, the age-profile of those who are actually supplying them, the future availability of wheels, gears, motors, etc, and the declining number of those who are making kits. One can rejoice in all the wonderment of the latest RTR stuff that's becoming available but in the not-too-distant future that's probably all that'll be available. With that comes the ever-more sameness of layouts one sees at shows and in the model press, particularly mainstream OO.

 

Someone mentioned how dependent diesel and electric modellers are on RTR. I don't think that's exclusive by any means. However, that's progress and it can't be stopped. May I make a suggestion, though? I think I've said this before but all of you out there who still prefer to make your own locos and rolling stock (not out of elitism, snobbery, one-upmanship or any of those derisory terms sometimes bandied about, but because you can, and like to) whenever you see kits, wheels, motors, gearboxes, bogies, detailing bits and what have you, buy them while you can. I'm going to. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Tony Wright

[t-b-g]

I have often pondered on the subject of the average age of exhibitors, traders and visitors at shows I go to.

 

My highly scientific approach indicates that at most non specialist shows, there are at least some families with youngsters to bring the average down. At specialist shows, like Scaleforum or EXPO EM, you can add a bit on because not so many youngsters come along. At Gauge O guild shows, you can add a bit more and at model engineering shows you can add even more.

 

If I mentally add 10 or 15 years onto the age of everybody there, then a good number will be either attending as a day out from a residential home or not there at all.

 

So I agree 100% with Tony W that the time to stock up on all those specialist bits is whenever you see them.

 

I had a long chat with an interesting member of the public at the hotel used for EXPO EM earlier this year. She was nothing to do with the show but we got chatting in the breakfast room and she was genuinely interested in what we were doing and more importantly why. A thought occurred to me during the chat that if the hobby has a future, it is with CAD and 3D printing and suchlike. So whatever happens, we are likely to be the last generation that makes things using traditional tools and methods.

[Clive Mortimore]

The hobby at the crossroads thread continues to interest, and is stimulating some lively debate. 

 

Today, I was speaking to a major 4mm kit supplier. His market is contracting, but he still keeps going and is actually re-introducing some kits previously available in other ranges. He made me chuckle (we both did) when he said he's frequently asked now for spare parts for kits some have bought on e-Bay which have been started (what made us chuckle was the daft prices paid in some cases - more than for an equivalent brand-new kit). 

 

I'll be building at least two of his new loco kits in the near future, for several reasons. For one, and without my being noble (which I'm not) they're going to two different publications to try and get maximum publicity. Two, I'll be building one model for him, for display at shows. Three, one of the same models I'll build for myself. 

 

There were several areas which concerned us, including the age-profile in the main of folk who are buying the kits, the age-profile of those who are actually supplying them, the future availability of wheels, gears, motors, etc, and the declining number of those who are making kits. One can rejoice in all the wonderment of the latest RTR stuff that's becoming available but in the not-too-distant future that's probably all that'll be available. With that comes the ever-more sameness of layouts one sees at shows and in the model press, particularly mainstream OO.

 

Someone mentioned how dependent diesel and electric modellers are on RTR. I don't think that's exclusive by any means. However, that's progress and it can't be stopped. May I make a suggestion, though? I think I've said this before but all of you out there who still prefer to make your own locos and rolling stock (not out of elitism, snobbery, one-upmanship or any of those derisory terms sometimes bandied about, but because you can, and like to) whenever you see kits, wheels, motors, gearboxes, bogies, detailing bits and what have you, buy them while you can. I'm going to. 

Hi Tony

 

I mentioned on the crossroads thread that my local model shop has stopped stocking wheels etc because very few people buy them. I have not seen a loco kit in there for years, not even a secondhand one. It is a good shop for many bits and bobs in the three major British modelling scales. Just a sign of the time I guess.

 

I recently purchased a second, possibly third or even fourth hand Sutherland Models Stanier Class 3 2-6-2T. I have built diesel shunter kits, and scratchbuilt shunters with outside frames and cranks so I am not one who shys away form a challenge but this thing looks scary. Now if I feel like this what about the guy who has only ever opened a box going to feel?

 

I think your question about the age profile is very true, even at this years DEMU showcase, us younger Diesel and Electric modellers are now talking about what we plan to do when we retire. As long as we enjoy what we do in the hobby I don't think we should fret too much about its future. It is sad to see the number smaller (mainly one man band) manufacturers decline but they too are retiring etc. Perhaps we have reached the golden age of railway modelling and we should be rejoicing the fact we are part of it. 

 

As for the mention of "modern image" modellers being dependent on RTR, perhaps I should have NOT read that post. I am glad you don't think that it is exclusive. How many joint SR and GWR branch line layouts are there where the same three locos seem to do all the work. Even layouts that have a loco roster of RTR engines is nothing new, I can recall the 60s and 70s Modeller and Constructor with layout features where all the engines came from Margate and Liverpool and all the stations looked like Wickford station I had on my layout.

 

 

Oddly enough even though Superquick were once based in Wickford the station building looks nothing like the real Wickford.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Clive Mortimore

[grahame]

I'm not so pessimistic about the future.

 

The hobby has always appeared to be populated by mainly elderly gentlemen. For as long as I've been regularly going to exhibitions (since the 70s) they've always seemed packed full of old duffers. In the 80s they were there, same in the 90s, still there in the 00s and now over 30/40 years later it's still the case that they're packed full of OAPs. But those oldies there now aren't the same ones that were attending all those years ago - it's just not possible. So there must be some turnover and a refreshing of them, even if there is an age requirement to qualify. And no doubt that will continue to a large extent. 

 

And for those small/one man band kit companies/producers and manufacturers who are retiring there are new ones taking their place; Revolution Trains, DJM, ERG, Laser Arch, British Finescale, (just some that I'm aware of in N gauge who weren't around last millennium) with many now offering new technology products like 3D printed parts and laser cut kits as well as RTR.

 

G.