Wright writes.....

[Willie Whizz]

...  Then I start to think about what will run on the layout. I'm fairly sure what locomotives I need - and anyway, as these are my main interest, I'll have far too many anyway! But what about carriages? Photos in the main seem to be front 3/4 so don't always help.

 

So a plea for advice. How do I work out what trains ran in 1938 and what the composition was?

 

Sorry if this sounds really basic but I'm getting confused by timetables, working timetables etc

Thanks

Jon

 

Hi Jon.

 

There is no consistent answer to this that I'm aware of, as it will largely depend on which company (or geographical area, which isn't necessarily the same thing) you're thinking of modelling.

 

For example, in its coverage of the LNER/BR(ER) period right from the 1920s to the 1960s I have found this extremely helpful in relation to the 1950s passenger workings that interest me:

 

http://www.steve-banks.org/publications/books/74-lner-passenger-trains-and-formations-the-principal-services  (available from good bookshops, Amazon etc.)

 

Not perfect beyond all query, mind you - but as a general introduction to the subject I've found nothing better - and I've been looking a long time.  (There is apparently a second volume in preparation covering secondary services, parcels etc., but the author's website has been saying it will be published "in about a year" for about two years now, so it's anyone's guess when and whether it will materialise in the end - which seems not at all uncommon in railway publishing, sadly).

 

Broadly similar information is available for the other Grouping companies' services and practice I'm sure, but they don't all adopt this 'themed' approach for the whole company, a 'route-specific' approach is also common.  And then there are books about the carriages themselves - Michael Harris's works seem best-known for the LNER, which was particularly prone to building small batches of different types within an overall company style.  Your best bet may be to ask a more specific question on an appropriate forum within RMWeb; people are generally pretty helpful and not 'precious' with their information on here (as Tony's approach shows) - once you find the place where the ones with the knowledge you need are likely to frequent(!).

 

Hope this helps.

[robertcwp]

Currently I'm thinking through the things I need to really get going with the layout.

I have track plans, know where the signal should go (I think), I have reference books and I've also walked the line. So far so good.

Then I start to think about what will run on the layout. I'm fairly sure what locomotives I need - and anyway, as these are my main interest, I'll have far too many anyway! But what about carriages? Photos in the main seem to be front 3/4 so don't always help.

 

So a plea for advice. How do I work out what trains ran in 1938 and what the composition was?

 

Sorry if this sounds really basic but I'm getting confused by timetables, working timetables etc

Thanks

Jon

Which line or area are you modelling?

[Jon4470]

Which line or area are you modelling?

Bilton Junction on the line from Harrogate to Ripon in the late 30's

[jwealleans]

How do I work out what trains ran in 1938 and what the composition was?

Robert hasn't mentioned it above, but he runs a group sharing and discussing carriage working documents and other information - emphasis mainly on the post-1948 period but I've personally benefited from his generosity in making earlier documents available. It's worth joining even if only to become familiar with the documents and raise any questions.

 

For your chosen area I suspect the most accessible source is the 1932 Carriage Working document issued by the NERA. It shows the timetables for each service, the sets allocated to work them and the composition of those sets. I'm not aware of a published one closer to your chosen timeframe though one may exist.

 

For through trains, there are CWPs for the GN services out of King's Cross for many years in the later 1930s which go down in some cases to specific vehicle numbers to be used on each service.

 

Your holy grail, I suppose, is a Working Timetable (WTT) for the line which will show passenger and goods services. If you could find something like a signalbox register you could work back from that. Again, the NERA might be your best starting point.

[robertcwp]

Just checked. The only North Eastern Area carriage working book from the 1930s that I am aware of is the one mentioned by Jonathan.

 

I have the summer 1938 East Coast and GN Main Line books:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Carriage_workings/LNER/LNER_1938_Summer_ECML_CW.pdf

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Carriage_workings/LNER/LNER_1938_Summer_GN_CW.pdf

[Willie Whizz]

As I'm currently discovering, working timetables and (to a different extent) carriage working documents are very interesting and useful documents up to a point.  The 'point' being that they tell you almost everything a working railwayman along the route they cover would need to know ... but not nearly so much of what a railway modeller would need to know - indeed although the 'class' is listed, and occasionally a word or two of description ('E & V', 'ECS' etc.) there is usually very little about the appearance, formation and haulage train of the train itself.

 

For example, for reasons not relevant to this I'm presently looking into the traffic along the 'Mansfield Railway', which ran from just north of Annesley on the GC main line to Clipstone on the old LD & EC route between Chesterfield and Lincoln and onward.  I see from the 1953 WTT that at 8.39 pm a Class H freight passed through Mansfield heading for the big marshalling yards at Annesley, arriving at 9.20 pm.  It originated at somewhere called 'Normanby Pk' at 3.55 pm.  Well, how would I model that train just based on that WTT information?  I can't.

 

Some further internet research tells me that Normanby Park is actually located near Scunthorpe, and was the home of the Lysaght steelworks of (at this time) GKN.  A glimmer of light dawns - this is probably a train of steel wagons that will be re-marshalled and sent-on south and south-west.  But I still don't know if the steel carried would have been ingots, sheets, coil ... or what.  So I still can't properly model this train unless some kind author has written a book or article about this particular traffic source and flow (and hopefully I can get hold of a copy to clarify this single point without actually purchasing something that will probably then hold little or no further interest); or someone has posted words and/or pictures on 't'Internet about it; or some kind soul will take pity and answer a question posted on a site such as RMWeb.

 

And even then, unless you have plenty of time and/or a team of skilled friends or contractors, deep pockets, and a lot of space (not so much for the layout as for the fiddle yard required to support it!) the chances of most of us representing the actual operations of a realistic model of a major route accurately are somewhat slender.  In that respect I'm inspired by the Shipley MRS who on their massive Leicester South Goods model run a 'representative selection' of GC-line trains from the 1950s and early 60s rather than attempting to fudge the whole timetable (though each individual train is very accurate indeed).

 

It's almost enough to make you want to go and model the current scene instead, where so much detailed information is freely available, and often for free!  This is why I recommended the Steve Banks/Clive Carter book; it has a lot of useful information about the context of the LNER/BR(ER) services, and commentary about the make-up of the trains, rather than just concentrating on the locomotive as so many other works do.

 

Mind you, if a WTT from the 1950s steam era would indeed be useful to anyone, originals seem to be at best rather haphazard to come by.  But I have found a helpful source of good-quality reprints at very reasonable cost from:

 

http://www.wttreprint.talktalk.net

 

(no connection except as a satisfied customer).

[billbedford]

 

Some further internet research tells me that Normanby Park is actually located near Scunthorpe, and was the home of the Lysaght steelworks of (at this time) GKN.  A glimmer of light dawns - this is probably a train of steel wagons that will be re-marshalled and sent-on south and south-west.  But I still don't know if the steel carried would have been ingots, sheets, coil ... or what.  So I still can't properly model this train unless some kind author has written a book or article about this particular traffic source and flow (and hopefully I can get hold of a copy to clarify this single point without actually purchasing something that will probably then hold little or no further interest); or someone has posted words and/or pictures on 't'Internet about it; or some kind soul will take pity and answer a question posted on a site such as RMWeb.

 

 

That train carried bar steel. Lysaght's works produced this for rolling into sheet in various rolling mills in South Wales. There may also have been some pig iron shipped by this train. There was a stand-off, pre-war, between Lysaghts and the LNER over the cost of shipping pig iron to S. Wales. This lead to the steel company trying both road and sea transport in a effort to reduce its costs. I presume this traffic reverted to the railways during WW2.

[Clive Mortimore]

As I'm currently discovering, working timetables and (to a different extent) carriage working documents are very interesting and useful documents up to a point.  The 'point' being that they tell you almost everything a working railwayman along the route they cover would need to know ... but not nearly so much of what a railway modeller would need to know - indeed although the 'class' is listed, and occasionally a word or two of description ('E & V', 'ECS' etc.) there is usually very little about the appearance, formation and haulage train of the train itself.

 

For example, for reasons not relevant to this I'm presently looking into the traffic along the 'Mansfield Railway', which ran from just north of Annesley on the GC main line to Clipstone on the old LD & EC route between Chesterfield and Lincoln and onward.  I see from the 1953 WTT that at 8.39 pm a Class H freight passed through Mansfield heading for the big marshalling yards at Annesley, arriving at 9.20 pm.  It originated at somewhere called 'Normanby Pk' at 3.55 pm.  Well, how would I model that train just based on that WTT information?  I can't.

 

Some further internet research tells me that Normanby Park is actually located near Scunthorpe, and was the home of the Lysaght steelworks of (at this time) GKN.  A glimmer of light dawns - this is probably a train of steel wagons that will be re-marshalled and sent-on south and south-west.  But I still don't know if the steel carried would have been ingots, sheets, coil ... or what.  So I still can't properly model this train unless some kind author has written a book or article about this particular traffic source and flow (and hopefully I can get hold of a copy to clarify this single point without actually purchasing something that will probably then hold little or no further interest); or someone has posted words and/or pictures on 't'Internet about it; or some kind soul will take pity and answer a question posted on a site such as RMWeb.

 

And even then, unless you have plenty of time and/or a team of skilled friends or contractors, deep pockets, and a lot of space (not so much for the layout as for the fiddle yard required to support it!) the chances of most of us representing the actual operations of a realistic model of a major route accurately are somewhat slender.  In that respect I'm inspired by the Shipley MRS who on their massive Leicester South Goods model run a 'representative selection' of GC-line trains from the 1950s and early 60s rather than attempting to fudge the whole timetable (though each individual train is very accurate indeed).

 

It's almost enough to make you want to go and model the current scene instead, where so much detailed information is freely available, and often for free!  This is why I recommended the Steve Banks/Clive Carter book; it has a lot of useful information about the context of the LNER/BR(ER) services, and commentary about the make-up of the trains, rather than just concentrating on the locomotive as so many other works do.

 

Mind you, if a WTT from the 1950s steam era would indeed be useful to anyone, originals seem to be at best rather haphazard to come by.  But I have found a helpful source of good-quality reprints at very reasonable cost from:

 

http://www.wttreprint.talktalk.net

 

(no connection except as a satisfied customer).

Hi Willie

 

With freight trains going from one marshalling yard to another, the composition would vary from day to day depending on what the customers wanted moving from A to B. With the train you have described there is a potential traffic, which you identified and thankfully Bill was to give even more information on but in many cases we as modellers don't know. I simple thing to do is look at photos of typical freight trains on your chosen line in your chosen period and work form them.

[Fat Controller]

The train mentioned would quite likely have a lot of empty mineral wagons that had taken coking coal to Normanby Park, and possibly also empty coke wagons.

[Willie Whizz]

Thank you, Gentlemen, most grateful for your comments.  There you are Jon, my 'Normanby Park' question is answered even when I was only using it as an example for you.  Point proven!  I bless the day I discovered RMWeb in general and "Wright Writes" in particular.

 

Now, if only someone comes across my restaurant car charging point query from the other day (post 10967) and knows the answer, I shall really regard this as having been a good week!

 

Malcolm

[Jon4470]

Thank you, Gentlemen, most grateful for your comments.  There you are Jon, my 'Normanby Park' question is answered even when I was only using it as an example for you.  Point proven!  I bless the day I discovered RMWeb in general and "Wright Writes" in particular.

 

Now, if only someone comes across my restaurant car charging point query from the other day (post 10967) and knows the answer, I shall really regard this as having been a good week!

 

Malcolm

Malcolm

I wish I could help with regard to charging points but unfortunately my knowledge doesn't stretch that far!

 

Thanks to all of you who posted replies for the guidance, information and links. I now understand what documents I need - and their limitations. As my next step I have emailed the NERA archive to see if they have the documents for the specific year.

Thanks

Jon

[jrg1]

The train mentioned would quite likely have a lot of empty mineral wagons that had taken coking coal to Normanby Park, and possibly also empty coke wagons.

The Scunthorpe-South Wales steel trains consisted mainly of bolsters carrying steel section, and were timetabled via Lincoln.  Coal would come from Nottinghamshire, usually the Mansfield area.

[Tony Wright]

What a terrific resource this thread is. My most grateful thanks for all those who've posted. I don't think I can add anything further. 

 

Just returned yesterday evening from the Southwold Show, after acting as a demonstrator. What a hugely enjoyable time; a wonderful event, very well organised and everything to a consistently high standard. My thanks to Rob and his team for putting on such a good show.

 

I think I was able to help several folk, and a few have been invited over here for me (if I can) to help with their loco building. One young guy as well - keen as mustard, so no need for my being lugubrious with regard to the hobby's future all the time.

 

One thing which I couldn't resolve was whether one of the Waveney Valley Club members (a quite splendid set of folk) was attempting to be humorous or not. Most who see me at shows as a demonstrator/loco doctor will have seen my wonderful wife, Mo, with me. She comes along, helps me set up, looks after the stand when I need to be away and answers questions (I write a crib sheet, but she doesn't need it too much these days). In my absence for a few minutes, she was questioned by one of the exhibition stewards if she built models, painted them, weathered them, etc, etc. Of course, other than doing some scenic work on LB, with regard to those models I had on display, her answer had to be no. She was then effectively grilled as to what she was doing there, given that our expenses were all met. When I met the guy later, I couldn't tell whether he was trying to make a joke of it, but it seemed a bit odd to me. No matter, I wouldn't miss that show in the future under any circumstances. It's on again in early August next year. I suggest a note in your diary now. 

 

I was delighted to see Leicester South for the first time in a more complete form. What a testament to the Shipley Club's abilities. It's surely one of the finest exhibition layouts on the circuit right now. Naturally, my appearance resulted in a couple of derailments (my apologies, chaps), but the representation of those correct trains running through a most-realistic scene was the most convincing thing I've seen in railway modelling for many a long time.  

[5050]

 Naturally, my appearance resulted in a couple of derailments (my apologies, chaps),

A well known member of the Doncaster (Danum?) Club always had the same effect whenever he looked at my layouts at shows.  I knew whenever I saw him approaching that something untoward would happen!  It MAY have been that he was an EM modeller and my layouts tended to be P4.

[t-b-g]

A well known member of the Doncaster (Danum?) Club always had the same effect whenever he looked at my layouts at shows.  I knew whenever I saw him approaching that something untoward would happen!  It MAY have been that he was an EM modeller and my layouts tended to be P4.

 

Cause and effect. You saw him coming, started twitching, sweating and having an attack of nerves and then the operating errors happened.

[Headstock]

 Naturally, my appearance resulted in a couple of derailments (my apologies, chaps), but the representation of those correct trains running through a most-realistic scene was the most convincing thing I've seen in railway modelling for many a long time.  

 

Yes, it was definitely all your fault, everything was ticking along like a little sewing machine until up popped TW in a rather fetching pinafore, so startling the southbound operator that he reset the point underneath the B16 trying to depart south loop, we were doomed from then on.

 

We had a couple of problems with the rail turning into Peco flexi track and wilting operators in the heat, but generally, things went well. Lovely exhibition and people, It was hard work, but thoroughly enjoyable.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Headstock

[5050]

Cause and effect. You saw him coming, started twitching, sweating and having an attack of nerves and then the operating errors happened.

You obviously now to whom I am referring!  Mind you, it wasn't operating errors it was derailments and electrical. Once he'd walked away everything reverted to normal!

 

I'm sure he generated some kind of force field

[Mallard60022]

What a terrific resource this thread is. My most grateful thanks for all those who've posted. I don't think I can add anything further. 

 

Just returned yesterday evening from the Southwold Show, after acting as a demonstrator. What a hugely enjoyable time; a wonderful event, very well organised and everything to a consistently high standard. My thanks to Rob and his team for putting on such a good show.

 

I think I was able to help several folk, and a few have been invited over here for me (if I can) to help with their loco building. One young guy as well - keen as mustard, so no need for my being lugubrious with regard to the hobby's future all the time.

 

One thing which I couldn't resolve was whether one of the Waveney Valley Club members (a quite splendid set of folk) was attempting to be humorous or not. Most who see me at shows as a demonstrator/loco doctor will have seen my wonderful wife, Mo, with me. She comes along, helps me set up, looks after the stand when I need to be away and answers questions (I write a crib sheet, but she doesn't need it too much these days). In my absence for a few minutes, she was questioned by one of the exhibition stewards if she built models, painted them, weathered them, etc, etc. Of course, other than doing some scenic work on LB, with regard to those models I had on display, her answer had to be no. She was then effectively grilled as to what she was doing there, given that our expenses were all met. When I met the guy later, I couldn't tell whether he was trying to make a joke of it, but it seemed a bit odd to me. No matter, I wouldn't miss that show in the future under any circumstances. It's on again in early August next year. I suggest a note in your diary now. 

 

I was delighted to see Leicester South for the first time in a more complete form. What a testament to the Shipley Club's abilities. It's surely one of the finest exhibition layouts on the circuit right now. Naturally, my appearance resulted in a couple of derailments (my apologies, chaps), but the representation of those correct trains running through a most-realistic scene was the most convincing thing I've seen in railway modelling for many a long time.  

That layout has survived enormous amounts of moisture and thank goodness it is kept on the upper floor of their 'centre'. I'm pleased that it only showed a few glitches seemingly. I really admire the Goods Yard and buildings. Excellent modelling.

Phil 

[Tony Wright]

More progress to report. 

 

 

For several years, the booking office on LB has been represented by no more than a mock-up (a most impressive one to be fair). Its rear was no more than a blank piece of card and its front a flat photograph. In this view, the blank rear is visible, though it is (was) work in progress. 

 

 

Today, Ian Wilson brought along the completed booking office. What a difference it makes to the scene. 

 

 

Seen from the front, it really looks the part. Geoff West's little sweeper carries on as normal. The brick pavement is yet to be blended in and the footbridge is still just a mock-up. Ian is working on that. There's also the station sign to put in and a couple more telegraph poles. 

 

 

I've not been idle, having bedded-in Bob Dawson's station platform buildings and represented the tarmac surface on the Up island. 

 

All of this progress is to meet the MRJ publication deadline. It all goes off tomorrow for publication later this year. 

 

My thanks to those who've contributed so much to the LB project. It really has been worthwhile. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Anglian]

I'm most impressed that great restraint has been shown and that the station forecourt only has one motor car present in the ubiquitous black 'livery' – a very plausible scene.

 

One thing that always strikes me when I see LB images is that the 'colour design', to borrow Hollywood nomenclature, is simply superb. Wide open spaces bathed in soft light giving a wonderful harmony between all the elements. It's the quality of that light which resonates with me – there are no puffy white clouds scudding across an over-optimisticly blue sky but instead we're presented with one of those hum-drum days of gentle overcast. None of these aspects and their certain qualities of ordinariness are easy things too pull-off in miniature form. It's one reason why many models look more believable when shown in black and white. There's often a tendency to 'over-model', to try too hard, when restraint and critical observation is really what's needed to achieve realism and it's here in bucket loads. Bravo!

Edited August 8, 2016 by Anglian

[lee74clarke]

More progress to report.

 

MRJ 30 V2 & WD.jpg

 

For several years, the booking office on LB has been represented by no more than a mock-up (a most impressive one to be fair). It's rear was no more than a blank piece of card and its front a flat photograph. In this view, the blank rear is visible, though it is (was) work in progress.

 

MRJ 36 J6 shunting.jpg

 

Today, Ian Wilson brought along the completed booking office. What a difference it makes to the scene.

 

MRJ 32 Booking Office.jpg

 

Seen from the front, it really looks the part. Geoff West's little sweeper carries on as normal. The brick pavement is yet to be blended in and the footbridge is still just a mock-up. Ian is working on that. There's also the station sign to put in and a couple more telegraph poles.

 

MRJ 35 A1 passing through station.jpg

 

I've not been idle, having bedded-in Bob Dawson's station platform buildings and represented the tarmac surface on the Up island.

 

All of this progress is to meet the MRJ publication deadline. It all goes off tomorrow for publication later this year.

 

My thanks to those who've contributed so much to the LB project. It really has been worthwhile.

Tony,

This looks great, can't wait to see Bytham with the buildings finished.

Would be good to get an aerial view, or as high as you can, for an overall view of the whole station

 

Regards

Lee

[Mike 84C]

Anglian has put into words all the thoughts about LB that were blundering around my brain. Thank you.

[gr.king]

Nice renditions of the brickwork colour on those lovely new buildings. Does that almost grey shade count as "yellow" in brickmakers' parlance?

[Barry O]

I called into see Mo and Tony today.

The new buildings, back scene and scenery certainly bring the layout to life.

 

Baz

[Guest Brighton_JunctionLNER]

More progress to report. 

 

MRJ 30 V2 & WD.jpg

 

For several years, the booking office on LB has been represented by no more than a mock-up (a most impressive one to be fair). It's rear was no more than a blank piece of card and its front a flat photograph. In this view, the blank rear is visible, though it is (was) work in progress. 

 

MRJ 36 J6 shunting.jpg

 

Today, Ian Wilson brought along the completed booking office. What a difference it makes to the scene. 

 

MRJ 32 Booking Office.jpg

 

Seen from the front, it really looks the part. Geoff West's little sweeper carries on as normal. The brick pavement is yet to be blended in and the footbridge is still just a mock-up. Ian is working on that. There's also the station sign to put in and a couple more telegraph poles. 

 

MRJ 35 A1 passing through station.jpg

 

I've not been idle, having bedded-in Bob Dawson's station platform buildings and represented the tarmac surface on the Up island. 

 

All of this progress is to meet the MRJ publication deadline. It all goes off tomorrow for publication later this year. 

 

My thanks to those who've contributed so much to the LB project. It really has been worthwhile. 

wow looks amazing!!!!! 

 

hope you are well Tony. 

 

my layout has slowed down, having some trouble with wiring and i moved to working on my car instead. however now that the main car show has finished i may have to pick up the wire stripper and soldering iron again