Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

May I pose a question related to your picture of WD No.3165 please? (please excuse my ignorance in advance!).

Most of the pictures that I have seen that date from before these locos were re-liveried & re-numbered seem to show the tenders as being plain black - no lettering, logo or numbers, but a few show "WD" and fewer still then have a sort of upward pointing arrowhead between the W and the D.

I have Richard Derry's "book of the WD..." but I can't seem to find a definitive answer about what is correct, what & when were the sequence of changes and so on.

Any help appreciated!

 

Tony

 

Tony,

 

I'm not an expert by any means but as far as I recall the LNER purchased about two hundred locomotives from the Government after the engines returned from the continent, hence the 21st Army group livery. They went on to 'lease' another two hundred and odd locomotives, as did some of the other big four, probably all. With regard to the LNER, the 'leased' locomotives were not in as good condition as the purchased batch and required major works attention. As these locomotives went through works they lost their original liveries, however they remained Government property, so unlike the purchased locomotives they never received an LNER number or company initials. It would be at works visits that both the purchased and loaned locomotives were repainted into black. In the case of 3165, the locomotive didn't receive a major overhaul until after nationalization. Being of LNER booked stock and now classified as class O7, it received its first BR number of 63165 in 1948. British Railways would go on to purchase its own batch of WD locomotives and eventually all were renumbered in the 9xxxx series.

[Bernard Lamb]

You had the same thing happen on BR, if you had any of their stuff. There was a pay clerk I knew who once a week had to go out to some small outlying depots to pay the c&w examiners, who weren’t paid with the rest of the yard traffic staff. Their pay was made out in cash with a slip in an envelope. It was then put in a wooden box with a sliding top and he went out with this in his own car. As the box was dusty from being in the office he took a sponge cloth which was marked BR to clean it, leaving the cloth on the parcels shelf of his car. He left the car in an allocated space outside the main station where he worked, and some officious BTC policeman spotted it. This gave them the grounds to descend unannounced in the middle of the day while he was at work to his home and search the place from top to bottom, leaving his young wife in a state of shock. No apology was ever made.

There is more than one way of killing a cat.

My colleague was called to a company that had gone into administration.

He had to put a value on the stock.

He offered the owner of the business £2k.

The owner protested that it was worth at least£40k.

My colleague agreed with him, but pointed out that the source of some of the items was suspicious.

Take £2k and our company gets a lot of stock back, or face prosecution.

I think we got the best result.

Bernard

[Theakerr]

There have been several mentions about how 0 gauge has a presence that 00 does not.  I agree, but on a recent layout tour over here in the GWN where most of the layouts were HO, I came to the realisation that 00, even the narrow gauge version, has a presence over H0.  Everything is "bigger" even the track when code 100 is used.  It also looks "heavier, but where it showed up most was in the scenery where that extra 0.5mm has a significant visual impact on things like tunnel mouths, station buildings etc.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Theakerr

[unclebobkt]

        Good evening Andrew,

   ... .

 

  W1.jpg

 

Who built this is not known, but it's from a DJH kit. Though actually 'correct', the style of '6' on this model's front numberplate is wrong. It should have a curly-tailed '6'. Retford has been mentioned. If out of shops, this loco could be seen every day stopping at Retford on its daily out-and-back turn, Doncaster-Kings Cross. It ceased to exist nearly 60 years ago! 

 

Thanks to all for a most enjoyable day. 

 

       A fine model indeed.       

 

  If one is concerned with the curly-cues on figure sixes then why not the fact that there appear to be no handles on the doors for the sand-boxes,  and why is the name-plate removed?

 

  Minor niggles, I'm sure, especially if one believes that perfection is for the gods alone.

 

 

      

Edited November 8, 2017 by unclebobkt

[cctransuk]

       A fine model indeed.       

 

  If one is concerned with the curly-cues on figure sixes then why not the fact that there appear to be no handles on the doors for the sand-boxes,  and why is the name-plate removed?

 

  Minor niggles, I'm sure, especially if one believes that perfection is for the gods alone.

 

 

      

 

Nameplates - on W1??

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[unclebobkt]

May I pose a question related to your picture of WD No.3165 please? (please excuse my ignorance in advance!).

Most of the pictures that I have seen that date from before these locos were re-liveried & re-numbered seem to show the tenders as being plain black - no lettering, logo or numbers, but a few show "WD" and fewer still then have a sort of upward pointing arrowhead between the W and the D.

I have Richard Derry's "book of the WD..." but I can't seem to find a definitive answer about what is correct, what & when were the sequence of changes and so on.

Any help appreciated!

 

Tony

 

       May I pose a question related to your picture of WD No.3165 please? (please excuse my ignorance in advance!).

Most of the pictures that I have seen that date from before these locos were re-liveried & re-numbered seem to show the tenders as being plain black - no lettering, logo or numbers, but a few show "WD" and fewer still then have a sort of upward pointing arrowhead between the W and the D.

I have Richard Derry's "book of the WD..." but I can't seem to find a definitive answer about what is correct, what & when were the sequence of changes and so on.

Any help appreciated!

 

Tony

 

     The 'Broad arrow.', or more correctly 'Pheon.', was the badge of the Sidney family, in Kent;  one of that family was among the early Master-Generals of the Board of Ordnance and used his badge to mark all ordnance equipment.

 

          

[DLT]

     The 'Broad arrow.', or more correctly 'Pheon.', was the badge of the Sidney family, in Kent;  one of that family was among the early Master-Generals of the Board of Ordnance and used his badge to mark all ordnance equipment.

 

          

 

The popular notion is that it was a "This Way Up" sign....

[ArthurK]

Many of the WDs Went through Vickers Armstrong's works at Scotswood on their return. From there they made the short journey across the Tyne to Blaydon shed (my local shed) before moving further afield. It was a revelation to see WDs in such a pristine state the like of which I never saw whilst they were in LNER and BR service.  They were still carrying their WD numbers in the 77xxx series.

Edited November 8, 2017 by ArthurK

[gr.king]

Nameplates - on W1??

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Maybe their removal involved a bit of unlawful British Enterprise, unless they were carried away on mythical winged horse.

[Tony Wright]

       A fine model indeed.       

 

  If one is concerned with the curly-cues on figure sixes then why not the fact that there appear to be no handles on the doors for the sand-boxes,  and why is the name-plate removed?

 

  Minor niggles, I'm sure, especially if one believes that perfection is for the gods alone.

 

 

      

I suppose my comment arose from just having a book published describing details (among many others) such as correct or incorrect fonts on the front numberplates fitted to the smokeboxes of ex-LNER/BR locomotives (strictly speaking, the A4s' 'plates and the W1's were on the front outer casing, the actual smokebox door being inside). The book, other than a couple or so bloopers (not all my fault), has come out very well. 

 

All 'should' have been Gill Sans (with non-curly-tailed '6's and '9's), but many remained incorrect to a loco's withdrawal. Many A4s had their front 'plates correct later on, though not all. All the A1s, with one exception (60119), eventually got 'plates with the correct font. Other classes were similar. 

 

The Southern Region locos all had incorrect '6's and '9's on their front numberplates, never corrected. 

 

Because all prototype A4s/W1/B17/5s had handles on the hatches (not all for access to sandboxes, by the way), I'd have no cause to mention them, though I should have pointed out their omission from the model. 

 

As others have commented, the W1, in neither of its manifestations, ever carried a name, though BRITISH ENTERPRISE and PEGASUS plates were cast for it in its rebuilt form, but never fitted. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Tony Wright

[davidw]

I suppose my comment arose from just having a book published describing details (among many others) such as correct or incorrect fonts on the front numberplates fitted to the smokeboxes of ex-LNER/BR locomotives (strictly speaking, the A4s' 'plates and the W1's were on the front outer casing, the actual smokebox door being inside). The book, other than a couple or so bloopers (not all my fault), has come out very well.

 

All 'should' have been Gill Sans (with non-curly-tailed '6's and '9's), but many remained incorrect to a loco's withdrawal. Many A4s had their front 'plates correct later on, though not all. All the A1s, with one exception (60119), eventually got 'plates with the correct font. Other classes were similar.

 

The Southern Region locos all had incorrect '6's and '9's on their front numberplates, never corrected.

 

Because all prototype A4s/W1/B17/5s had handles on the hatches (not all for access to sandboxes, by the way), I'd have no cause to mention them, though I should have pointed out their omission from the model.

 

As others have commented, the W1, in neither of its manifestations, ever carried a name, though BRITISH ENTERPRISE and PEGASUS plates were cast for it in its rebuilt form, but never fitted.

PEGASUS would have been very apt. Edited November 8, 2017 by davidw

[96701]

I suppose my comment arose from just having a book published describing details (among many others) such as correct or incorrect fonts on the front numberplates fitted to the smokeboxes of ex-LNER/BR locomotives (strictly speaking, the A4s' 'plates and the W1's were on the front outer casing, the actual smokebox door being inside). The book, other than a couple or so bloopers (not all my fault), has come out very well. 

 

All 'should' have been Gill Sans (with non-curly-tailed '6's and '9's), but many remained incorrect to a loco's withdrawal. Many A4s had their front 'plates correct later on, though not all. All the A1s, with one exception (60119), eventually got 'plates with the correct font. Other classes were similar. 

 

The Southern Region locos all had incorrect '6's and '9's on their front numberplates, never corrected. 

 

Because all prototype A4s/W1/B17/5s had handles on the hatches (not all for access to sandboxes, by the way), I'd have no cause to mention them, though I should have pointed out their omission from the model. 

 

As others have commented, the W1, in neither of its manifestations, ever carried a name, though BRITISH ENTERPRISE and PEGASUS plates were cast for it in its rebuilt form, but never fitted. 

Railtrack continued with Gill Sans as their font of choice for all documents. This caused 2 difficulties when reading documents:

• The software used (Microsoft Word) pixellated the letters on screen therefore making them difficult to read and
• there is no difference between 1, small l and capital I.

Network Rail has tended to use Arial, where it is only difficult to tell the difference between I and l, whereas at least 1 is different.

 

I hope you are still all awake.

[Anglian]

Picking up on the above – the problem doesn't lie with Gill Sans per se or Microsoft Word. The font will pixelate if it hadn't been installed on the computer or if it has and there is a font conflict. If it was a PDF you were reading then embedding the fonts, when making the PDF, would also ensure they would still display correctly on a computer that didn't have Gill Sans installed. The downside of embedding fonts is that the PDF file size gets much larger.

 

The upper case I and the number 1 are indeed the same character in Gill but the lowercase l is marginally thinner. Gill is a brilliant typeface design – I didn't realise until recently that there is an incredibly subtle tweak to the upper case T which is so perfect as it's been used to resolve an optical illusion. It's a counter intuitive correction making this tweak a brilliant piece of design. (Railtrack were a client of mine many years ago.)

 

Now everybody has fallen asleep I have to admit that I notice wobbly renumbering and less than perfect letter spacing on models - they stick out like sore thumbs. The clarity of Gill Sans makes these alignment issue especially noticeable. Today I saw the a photograph of the newly repainted SECR H Class – the number on the front buffer beam is either a copy of an original mistake or an example of poor letter spacing. Oh the life of a typographic pendant is such fun!

Edited November 8, 2017 by Anglian

[stewartingram]

Slightly off topic, but my Grandad used to do signwriting on vehicles. I can remember helping (him) paint and letter vehicles when I was at school. One thing he showed me was how to set out the lettering on a vehicle using chalk,

A taut piece of string, rubbed with a chalk, was "twanged" against the bodyside to produce a straight line, at top and bottom of the word (eg owner's name) and give an alignment aid. All letters were then drawn out in chalk between these lines, and later painted in with special brushes. No special named fonts here, all done by eye! Thing that I remember though, is that certain letters were always extended above & below the chalk lines. An optical illusion would otherwise show them as looking too small. Letters I remember were O, S, I, & similar.

We are so used to using PC software nowadays, we forget the traditional way of doing things.

 

Stewartr

[New Haven Neil]

We had a right tussle over lettering on a wagon commission earlier this year, with letters that looked too small in places - presumably the same effect.  Ended up rejecting them.

[96701]

Picking up on the above – the problem doesn't lie with Gill Sans per se or Microsoft Word. The font will pixelate if it hadn't been installed on the computer or if it has and there is a font conflict. 

It must have been a font conflict - Gill Sans didn't seem to be WYSIWYG. Printed okay, viewed terribly on Amey and Network Rail computers and screens.

[Anglian]

It may well be that digital screen part of the font was damaged. 

 

Letterforms with rounded elements like the O and S mentioned above are tweaked so they are marginally taller than say a capital F. When setting type in a sentence, or more importantly a title that begins with one of these rounded characters then that line needs to be tweaked to sit marginally to the left of other characters to align visually. You will also find that rounded characters like the capital O sits slightly below the baseline. When aligning decals for renumbering in Gill Sans they should be aligned so the 1, 2, 4 and 7 sit on the baseline but 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 0 sit slightly below it.

 

For proof of this illusion create a circle and square on your computer or on paper, if you can do so precisely. If you make them the same height the circle will look smaller than the square, so when designing fonts they take this illusion into consideration.

 

What's so clever about the Uppercase T of Gill is that unlike other letters such as E and F the horizontal bar of the T sits 1:1000th of the letter's total height above the horizontal bar of the E and F. I'd suggest Gill initially designed them to be the same height as his E and F but his eye saw the problem and he adjusted it not by maths but by artistry. I've been working with Gill Sans for 30 or so years and it was only very recently that my eye picked up on this tweak to the T, whilst I was designing some large format signage. 

 

Edited for sense.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Anglian

[Willie Whizz]

I do love the way we get such fascinating digressions on Wright Writes!

 

For anyone with even the slightest interest or curiosity about fonts and typefaces, can I strongly recommend a book called "Just My Type", by Simon Garfield (Profile Books).  For what is commonly considered a dull, dry and geeky subject (but hey, some fools say that about trains, don't they!) there are some wonderfully funny stories, some fascinating history and facts, some useful guidance, and some strong opinions - such as what may well be the very best and the very worst fonts in the world.

 

A really good read that will change the way you think about this stuff.

 

(And for the 'politically correct' among us - not that I see much evidence of that on here actually - an excuse for yet another campaign against the legacy of a historical figure.  The story that some might argue should  get Gill Sans banned because of the sins of its creator will make your hair curl ...).

[LaScala]

Nor me. Not so much because I fuss over details, but because I am both lazy and impatient, which is a bad combination.

 

I do think the D9 is a lovely prototype. And while I would always prefer GC condition, the truth is that even if the livery is black covered in filth the fine lines of the design shine through. Being a heretic (and quite contrary to my usual arguments about locomotive beauty) I actually prefer the rebuilt condition (GC 11D, aka LNER D9 as I don't think many, if any 11Bs survived post 1923, or not for very long) which probably makes me a Bad Person. 

Definitely a bad person. 

 

This one is a very slow burn that I never get round to finishing.

[AJon30]

Ref the Austerity with the "incorrect" air pump.

 

I am a member of the Luton group that was at Gifford Street on Sunday for our final outing (thanks John)

 

The Austerity mentioned is a club "heirloom" having been passed down from modellers sadly no longer with us. It ran in its original style as a WD liveried loco (which would be correct with the pump). However once the layout that it ran on no longer exists it was just packed away. The Group thought long and hard about repainting into BR livery but felt that as we could run it on our new Club layout "Central Works" and give pleasure to visitors to model railway shows we would accept any minor inconsistency. The loco was duly painted by Dave Coasby and David L.O. Smith passed his magic fingers over it to make it run smoothly and we are very pleased with it.

 

So that is our position and we make no apologies for that.

 

Rgds Andrew Jones / Luton MRC

[Tony Wright]

Ref the Austerity with the "incorrect" air pump.

 

I am a member of the Luton group that was at Gifford Street on Sunday for our final outing (thanks John)

 

The Austerity mentioned is a club "heirloom" having been passed down from modellers sadly no longer with us. It ran in its original style as a WD liveried loco (which would be correct with the pump). However once the layout that it ran on no longer exists it was just packed away. The Group thought long and hard about repainting into BR livery but felt that as we could run it on our new Club layout "Central Works" and give pleasure to visitors to model railway shows we would accept any minor inconsistency. The loco was duly painted by Dave Coasby and David L.O. Smith passed his magic fingers over it to make it run smoothly and we are very pleased with it.

 

So that is our position and we make no apologies for that.

 

Rgds Andrew Jones / Luton MRC

Andrew,

 

No apology would be necessary. 

 

It's just that this thread (because of me, I hasten to add, though not solely) is a touch on the pedantic side. Post a picture of anything which is 'incorrect' or write some factual ambiguity and the 'corrections' are given immediately. All with good grace, though.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

It may well be that digital screen part of the font was damaged. 

 

Letterforms with rounded elements like the O and S mentioned above are tweaked so they are marginally taller then say a capital F. When setting type if a sentence, or more importantly a title, begins with one of these rounded characters that line needs to be tweaked to sit marginally to the left of other characters to align visually. You will also find that rounded characters like the capital O sits slightly below the baseline. When aligning type decals for renumbering in Gill Sans they should be aligned so the 1, 2, 4 and 7 sit on the baseline but 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 0 sits slightly below it.

 

For proof of this illusion Create a circle and square on your computer or on paper if you an do so precisely. If you make them the same height the circle will look smaller than the square, so when designing fonts they take this illusion into consideration.

 

What's so clever about the Uppercase T of Gill is that unlike other letters such as E and F the horizontal bar of the T sits 1:1000th of the letter's total hight above the horizontal bar of the E and F. I'd suggest Gill initially designed them to be the same height as his E and F but his eye saw the problem and he adjusted it not by maths but by artistry. I've been working with Gill Sans for 30 or so years and it was only very recently that my eye picked up on this tweak to the T, whilst I was designing some large format signage. 

Though, obviously, I have to declare and interest (and a preference), I think Gill Sans is the most beautiful style of font ever used by a railway company. It was adopted by British Railways, and the splendid (and very dignified) station name boards (in the regional colours) graced every station. 

 

I know lower-case (in any font?) is supposed to be easier to read, because we're told we recognise words by their 'shape' rather than read each letter. However, in my view, it never looks as dignified for important signs (a personal opinion, of course). Just as I'm writing this, a Virgin-liveried HST has just flashed past my window. Now, I know the company is hugely successful, but I find its style of font (does it have a name?) not really appropriate to apply to Britain's most successful train. No doubt 'marketing folk' will scoff at such suggestions, but I'm too old-fashioned I'm afraid. The style of lettering is not alone (in my opinion) in being 'modern'. Some other 'brandings' on today's real locos/rolling stock are bewildering to me. Collecting a mate from Grantham station recently, the unit he arrived in was covered in swirls and sparkling symbols! 

 

Thanks for bringing back my art school memories of yore. Does anyone set out designs using Letraset any more? 

[Clive Mortimore]

Though, obviously, I have to declare and interest (and a preference), I think Gill Sans is the most beautiful style of font ever used by a railway company. It was adopted by British Railways, and the splendid (and very dignified) station name boards (in the regional colours) graced every station. 

 

I know lower-case (in any font?) is supposed to be easier to read, because we're told we recognise words by their 'shape' rather than read each letter. However, in my view, it never looks as dignified for important signs (a personal opinion, of course). Just as I'm writing this, a Virgin-liveried HST has just flashed past my window. Now, I know the company is hugely successful, but I find its style of font (does it have a name?) not really appropriate to apply to Britain's most successful train. No doubt 'marketing folk' will scoff at such suggestions, but I'm too old-fashioned I'm afraid. The style of lettering is not alone (in my opinion) in being 'modern'. Some other 'brandings' on today's real locos/rolling stock are bewildering to me. Collecting a mate from Grantham station recently, the unit he arrived in was covered in swirls and sparkling symbols! 

 

Thanks for bringing back my art school memories of yore. Does anyone set out designs using Letraset any more? 

Letraset....oh so seventies.....

[St Enodoc]

Though, obviously, I have to declare and interest (and a preference), I think Gill Sans is the most beautiful style of font ever used by a railway company. It was adopted by British Railways, and the splendid (and very dignified) station name boards (in the regional colours) graced every station. 

 

I know lower-case (in any font?) is supposed to be easier to read, because we're told we recognise words by their 'shape' rather than read each letter. However, in my view, it never looks as dignified for important signs (a personal opinion, of course). Just as I'm writing this, a Virgin-liveried HST has just flashed past my window. Now, I know the company is hugely successful, but I find its style of font (does it have a name?) not really appropriate to apply to Britain's most successful train. No doubt 'marketing folk' will scoff at such suggestions, but I'm too old-fashioned I'm afraid. The style of lettering is not alone (in my opinion) in being 'modern'. Some other 'brandings' on today's real locos/rolling stock are bewildering to me. Collecting a mate from Grantham station recently, the unit he arrived in was covered in swirls and sparkling symbols! 

 

Thanks for bringing back my art school memories of yore. Does anyone set out designs using Letraset any more? 

Not I - but I would go a long way to find a supply of Letracote 103 to the original formulation. The best matt spray varnish I ever used (with thanks to Mike and others at Leeds MRS for introducing me to it).

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

I know lower-case (in any font?) is supposed to be easier to read, because we're told we recognise words by their 'shape' rather than read each letter. However, in my view, it never looks as dignified for important signs (a personal opinion, of course). Just as I'm writing this, a Virgin-liveried HST has just flashed past my window. Now, I know the company is hugely successful, but I find its style of font (does it have a name?) not really appropriate to apply to Britain's most successful train. No doubt 'marketing folk' will scoff at such suggestions, but I'm too old-fashioned I'm afraid. The style of lettering is not alone (in my opinion) in being 'modern'. Some other 'brandings' on today's real locos/rolling stock are bewildering to me. 

I have always written notes using upper case.

It was only a few years ago that I found out why I did that.

I am of an age group that was brought up to find my way around London by bus and tube and used to travel to school on a LONDON TRANSPORT bus.

What you learn at an early age stays with you for ever.

As for modern liveries. A train advertising a James Bond film is a step too far for me.

Bernard