Wright writes.....

[Barry Ten]

What's the medical definition for ECML envy?

[grahame]

And now for something completely different, and N/2mm.

 

For many years I've been planning a layout and making buildings for it. Now I've finally got a home for it - a garden room/shed and I'm able to start putting it together. So far I've built the baseboard supports and surface, and have started to temporarily place the buildings in their locations to be able to plan the viaduct build that will carry the railway:

 

 

If anyone is interest you can see further details and progress on my thread: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/180443-london-bridge/

 

 

[Northmoor]

57 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

What's the medical definition for ECML envy?

I don't know, but I believe it is only cured by a surgical procedure known as Don-casteration..........

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

What's the medical definition for ECML envy?

Good evening Al,

 

I think Northmoor (Rob) has summed up the condition very well.

 

The march of high-quality 4mm RTR has meant that fewer and fewer of the principal BR ECML steam-hauled trains now need to be kit-built. With Hornby's forthcoming articulated streamlined stock (in BR condition as well as original), apart from the ex-'Silver Jubilee' articulated stock and the Thompson PV cars in 'The Elizabethan', there is precious little left that needs building. I suppose the largest exception is Hornby's gangwayed Gresleys, which are really poor when it comes to body-side profile; not too bad in LNER guise (where the teak livery acts as a kind of disguise), but not convincing at all in carmine/cream and maroon. I have none in original BR condition, though I do use them as donors for carrying brass sides. I wonder how many tolerate them as supplied? 

 

So, I suppose there's plenty to be 'envious' about. 

 

How do the other BR regions fare when it comes to RTR coaching stock? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[davidw]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Al,

 

I think Northmoor (Rob) has summed up the condition very well.

 

The march of high-quality 4mm RTR has meant that fewer and fewer of the principal BR ECML steam-hauled trains now need to be kit-built. With Hornby's forthcoming articulated streamlined stock (in BR condition as well as original), apart from the ex-'Silver Jubilee' articulated stock and the Thompson PV cars in 'The Elizabethan', there is precious little left that needs building. I suppose the largest exception is Hornby's gangwayed Gresleys, which are really poor when it comes to body-side profile; not too bad in LNER guise (where the teak livery acts as a kind of disguise), but not convincing at all in carmine/cream and maroon. I have none in original BR condition, though I do use them as donors for carrying brass sides. I wonder how many tolerate them as supplied? 

 

So, I suppose there's plenty to be 'envious' about. 

 

How do the other BR regions fare when it comes to RTR coaching stock? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

But as has been mentioned, catering cars, not just for the ECML are very poorly represented.

[Andy R]

On 06/08/2023 at 23:12, t-b-g said:

I would like to think that the people who have visited Buckingham don't go away feeling disappointed.

 

The vast majority ask if they can come again and the lovely comments in my "Visitor's Book" suggest that the old layout still has an appeal to many.

 

I wouldn't swap it for any other layout ever built by anybody!

 

The attached snap was taken just now. Everything in the photo is between 50 and 76 years old.

 

 

 

 Tony~ wonderful shot that just screams happy memories for me and many others I’m sure.  Hopefully able to make it back there in 2024. In the meantime I always enjoy your Buckingham operating observations- Andy R NZ

[dibateg]

Layout progress - another diversion I'm afraid, but an illustration of collaborative efforts to build a railway. Although I did need to get the check book out for some of it. 43156 runs round empty hoppers at Basford North. The backscene and scenery by Alisdair MacDonald, buildings Peter Leyland, point blades by the late David Smith ( DLOS) , hard surfaces by Geoff Taylor. Why did I not spot that wonky lamp at the time! Loco, track, signals and wiring by me... brake van and hoppers RTR.

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Al,

 

I think Northmoor (Rob) has summed up the condition very well.

 

The march of high-quality 4mm RTR has meant that fewer and fewer of the principal BR ECML steam-hauled trains now need to be kit-built. With Hornby's forthcoming articulated streamlined stock (in BR condition as well as original), apart from the ex-'Silver Jubilee' articulated stock and the Thompson PV cars in 'The Elizabethan', there is precious little left that needs building. I suppose the largest exception is Hornby's gangwayed Gresleys, which are really poor when it comes to body-side profile; not too bad in LNER guise (where the teak livery acts as a kind of disguise), but not convincing at all in carmine/cream and maroon. I have none in original BR condition, though I do use them as donors for carrying brass sides. I wonder how many tolerate them as supplied? 

 

So, I suppose there's plenty to be 'envious' about. 

 

How do the other BR regions fare when it comes to RTR coaching stock? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

With the once-they are-gone that's it for a few years way r-t-r presently works maybe the question should be how have the other BR regions fared?

 

If you have been amassing stock for a decade or more, the Southern hasn't done too badly, certainly if one models a period late enough for BR Mk.1s to figure in the mix, or a location that saw Pullmans.

 

Maunsell main line coaches and stock for secondary and branch services are (or have been) quite well catered for. Some of what is missing can be covered by "plausible substitution". 

 

Bachmann may hopefully see their way to filling some of the (many) remaining gaps on the Bulleid front, and for earlier periods and secondary and/or inter-regional services, some ex-LSWR 56' corridors, plus late-LSWR Ironclads and Maunsell "nondescripts" would be very welcome.     

 

John

Edited August 8, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, davidw said:

But as has been mentioned, catering cars, not just for the ECML are very poorly represented.

Good morning David,

 

Of course, I should have mentioned the paucity of those essential vehicles. 

 

The Gresley Buffet Car was very long-lived (even into blue/grey), but Hornby's is a poor rendition, unfortunately. At least with Hornby's forthcoming ex-streamlined twins in BR guise, then some of the ECML expresses can be made-up 'correctly', catering-wise. Trains like 'The West Riding' and 'The Aberdonian' (north of Edinburgh), for instance. 

 

The market is 'crying out' for a Gresley RF/RU, or a Thompson of the same type. Or, how about a triplet diner for most of the Newcastle expresses? 

 

As usual, however, 'I'm all right Jack'! I've built all of the catering cars necessary for Little Bytham, but for those incapable of doing this sort of thing (or a commission is beyond their pockets), then it's wait and see, I'm afraid. Whatever appears will be expensive, I'm sure. Such is the current market, then probably more expensive than a kit-equivalent, or at least on parity.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[APOLLO]

17 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

What's the medical definition for ECML envy?

 

I don't know the definition, but this is the cure !! (Starts off with an A4!!)

 

 

Brit15

 

[BMacdermott]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

How do the other BR regions fare when it comes to RTR coaching stock? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Hello Tony & everyone

 

Firstly, an apology to anyone who may have seen my earlier post on this subject where I messed up the location of the PDF and had to delete the post!

 

I have attached Results Extracts from The 00 Wishlist Poll 2022 for PCCS and NPCCS which we believe show up the major gaps for RTR. Ellis Clark Trains has since announced correct 8-car GN Quad Art sets and Dapol has announced a 59ft 6in GWR Autocoach.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

00 Wishlist Poll Results 2022 - PCCS & NPCCS Extracts.pdf

[MJI]

The worst served is the GWR.

 

Corridor stock

No Toplights (minefield)

No 70ft

Hornby 57ft 1920s

No excursion

Very little wide stock  (Airfix 2xCentenary thats it)

No mid 30 flat ended stock

Mainline Only 2 Sunshine (TK BCK)

Hornby Hawksworth

 

 

[The Fatadder]

51 minutes ago, MJI said:

The worst served is the GWR.

 

Corridor stock

No Toplights (minefield)

No 70ft

Hornby 57ft 1920s

No excursion

Very little wide stock  (Airfix 2xCentenary thats it)

No mid 30 flat ended stock

Mainline Only 2 Sunshine (TK BCK)

Hornby Hawksworth

 

 

This is then compounded by the majority of the RTR GWR stock being very time limited as well

Airfix/Hornby Centenarys - has as built windows so only suitable for 1935-38

Mainline/Bachmann Sunshine - 2mm too short 

Hornby Hawksworth - Third / Brake third suitable for 1946/7 only in small numbers, Composite suitable for 2 months of GWR use only.

Bachmann Hawksworth autocoach - BR only, likewise the Dapol Hawksworth inspection saloon.

 

Thankfully plenty of designs are available as kits! 

[MJI]

3 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

This is then compounded by the majority of the RTR GWR stock being very time limited as well

Airfix/Hornby Centenarys - has as built windows so only suitable for 1935-38

Mainline/Bachmann Sunshine - 2mm too short 

Hornby Hawksworth - Third / Brake third suitable for 1946/7 only in small numbers, Composite suitable for 2 months of GWR use only.

Bachmann Hawksworth autocoach - BR only, likewise the Dapol Hawksworth inspection saloon.

 

Thankfully plenty of designs are available as kits! 

 

 

My GWR stuff is mainly kit, 3 shortish passenger trains, a number 4 would be 57ft non corridor or 3x64ft mark 1 non corridor.

 

Still easier than DMU where scratch building is required.

 

All Comet

70ft BTK

57ft TK

60ft early Sunshine TK

flat ended BCK like 6912

Sunshine BTK

 

Detailed AIrfix

B set

 

Multiple bits

2x1950s Hawksworth T

[MikeParkin65]

13 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

This is then compounded by the majority of the RTR GWR stock being very time limited as well

Airfix/Hornby Centenarys - has as built windows so only suitable for 1935-38

Mainline/Bachmann Sunshine - 2mm too short 

Hornby Hawksworth - Third / Brake third suitable for 1946/7 only in small numbers, Composite suitable for 2 months of GWR use only.

Bachmann Hawksworth autocoach - BR only, likewise the Dapol Hawksworth inspection saloon.

 

Thankfully plenty of designs are available as kits! 

Understand your wider point but if the only fault with the sunshine stock is that it is 2mm too short (over buffers or body?) then I would argue that would be unidentifiable in either model or prototype (2mm equating to 6 inches). 

[coronach]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

The worst served is the GWR.

 

Corridor stock

No Toplights (minefield)

No 70ft

Hornby 57ft 1920s

No excursion

Very little wide stock  (Airfix 2xCentenary thats it)

No mid 30 flat ended stock

Mainline Only 2 Sunshine (TK BCK)

Hornby Hawksworth

 

 

Maybe the GWR market tends towards the BLT, whereas large round-roundies are more likely to be LNER or LMS. I don’t recall many recent large GWR layouts in the vein of the late Mike Cook’s Totnes. I am happy to be corrected of course. 

[mattingleycustom]

I don't think there are any complaints from us SR modellers, once upon a time there wasn't a rtr SR coach worth the name but now we are spoiled with:

Hornby Maunsells, Bachmann Bulleids, pre-Grouping ex-SECR Birdcage, ex-LSWR Cross-Country LAV stock, plus the Gate stock and a few others.

 

Glenn

[The Fatadder]

14 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Understand your wider point but if the only fault with the sunshine stock is that it is 2mm too short (over buffers or body?) then I would argue that would be unidentifiable in either model or prototype (2mm equating to 6 inches). 

A two mm discrepancy in a locos length would cause uproar, why should it be any different with a coach?

 

With the sunshine stock being two distinct lengths depending on diagram (with firsts and composites 60ft and thirds / brakes 61ft I think it does stand out when you start modelling the missing  diagrams)

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

A two mm discrepancy in a locos length would cause uproar

Are you sure? I'd be hard pressed to spot it.

[Clive Mortimore]

47 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

A two mm discrepancy in a locos length would cause uproar, why should it be any different with a coach?

 

 

42 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Are you sure? I'd be hard pressed to spot it.

Hi Rich and John

 

I agree with both of you, now 2mm too short or too long can ruin the appearance of some models, others it doesn't notice. To some people it matters to others it doesn't. Thankfully we have a hobby that has a wide range of people who have differing ideas of what they want, ranging form " I am not buying that as it didn't have a curly 6 in that livery" to "This month I will have a red engine as I had a blue one last month".

[MJI]

55 minutes ago, mattingleycustom said:

I don't think there are any complaints from us SR modellers, once upon a time there wasn't a rtr SR coach worth the name but now we are spoiled with:

Hornby Maunsells, Bachmann Bulleids, pre-Grouping ex-SECR Birdcage, ex-LSWR Cross-Country LAV stock, plus the Gate stock and a few others.

 

Glenn

 

SR Tons missing, no SUBs 4CORs or anything like that

[BMacdermott]

13 minutes ago, mattingleycustom said:

I don't think there are any complaints from us SR modellers, once upon a time there wasn't a rtr SR coach worth the name but now we are spoiled with:

Hornby Maunsells, Bachmann Bulleids, pre-Grouping ex-SECR Birdcage, ex-LSWR Cross-Country LAV stock, plus the Gate stock and a few others.

 

Glenn

 

Hello Glenn

 

I can understand why Bachmann has made the Bulleid Diag.2019 Corridor Third (Second later) but it has to be said that there were only five of them, whereas we still await the (arguably) essential Diag.2406 Corridor Brake Composite, of which there were 40 examples.

 

Hornby has made a Maunsell Restaurant Composite Open (RCO) but not the 'prototypically required' pairing of the  Diag.2659 Kitchen Buffet Car. I wonder how many unsuspecting modellers have been lulled into running the RCO with the existing Restaurant First (RF)?

 

The Bulleid Tavern Cars are now Top 50 in The Poll.

 

Tony has already mentioned the Hornby Gresley Buffet Car. That was accompanied in 2004 by the BCK, FK, TK and Sleeper First - look at all that First Class!

 

The Gresley 61ft 6in General Service Stock is High Polling but we do include all the relevant diagrams there! The Triplet Articulated Restaurant Set is only a handful of votes behind.

 

Brian

 

 

 

 

 

Brian

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Understand your wider point but if the only fault with the sunshine stock is that it is 2mm too short (over buffers or body?) then I would argue that would be unidentifiable in either model or prototype (2mm equating to 6 inches). 

 

Stephen Williams details one of these coaches in his Wild Swan book on carriage modelling, so it's certainly capable of reaching an acceptable standard to the Pendon gang. I'm not sure if he discusses the length.

 

 

[Chuffer Davies]

I’ve always felt that the RTR coaching stock for Great Western modellers has been disproportionately under represented when compared to the wide range of locomotives produced by the major manufacturers.  The GWR tended to mix their coaching stock up more than the other regions and so, other than the top flight expresses, any given train might consist of a variety of coach styles and this is hard to reproduce using RTR vehicles. Why hasn’t any manufacturer produced top light coaches or a decent representation of clerestory stock?  The original clerestories from Hornby were basic although their saving grace was that if you replaced the under frames and bogies you could cut and shut the bodies to produce some respectable models.  Hornby’s later reliefless attempt at clerestories was an appalling  attempt in my opinion.  
Fortunately, when we were building Hungerford, the late Mike Bradley built a significant variety of GW coaching stock which meant we had no dependency for RTR.

Frank

[Tony Wright]

19 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

A two mm discrepancy in a locos length would cause uproar, why should it be any different with a coach?

 

With the sunshine stock being two distinct lengths depending on diagram (with firsts and composites 60ft and thirds / brakes 61ft I think it does stand out when you start modelling the missing  diagrams)

Good afternoon Rich,

 

I trust you are well.

 

As for a 2mm discrepancy in a loco's length causing an 'uproar', I wish my eyes were as good as yours. 

 

If one takes (as an example) a large tender loco, say, in my case, a 4mm Peppercorn A1, that's (if my maths is correct) 1 mm over-long each end. Now, all the ones I've built are at least that over-long, because of the greater gap between locos and tender caused by their having to negotiate (out of sight) tight curves (3' radius minimum). Some have sprung buffers, which might increase their overall length even more.

 

So, if my admission about my A1s being over-long (and every other one of my tender locos) causes 'uproar', then so be it.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Tony Wright
clumsy grammar