Wright writes.....

[TrevorP1]

Re the conversation on layouts featured in the press ‘back in the day’. It was Garsdale Road that caught my imagination. Reading about it in RM and the standing with my father watching it at the London show. Most of my magazines from those days are long gone but I saved the two copies of RM and still have them.

[Mark Laidlay]

Prototype question.

 

What type of timber was used for sleepers from construction during the mid 19th century and retained in use into the 1950s?  There seem to be various answers around the interned from Elm and Baltic Pine all the way to Jarrah all the way from Western Australia.  I though I might find a better informed answer on this group.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm puzzled as to how anyone could consider such a fine model like this 'inferior' to an RTR equivalent, but there you go. 

So am I - but (trigger warning: pebble about to be thrown into pond) I'm equally puzzled as to how some people could consider a fine RTR model as 'inferior' to a scratch- or kit-built one...

 

5 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

Re the conversation on layouts featured in the press ‘back in the day’. It was Garsdale Road that caught my imagination. Reading about it in RM and the standing with my father watching it at the London show. Most of my magazines from those days are long gone but I saved the two copies of RM and still have them.

I first saw Garsdale Road at a Hemel Hempstead show in about 1971. Torandor Valley was also there, I think, and Paul Towers too probably but it was GR that stuck with me.

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

So am I - but (trigger warning: pebble about to be thrown into pond) I'm equally puzzled as to how some people could consider a fine RTR model as 'inferior' to a scratch- or kit-built one...

 

I first saw Garsdale Road at a Hemel Hempstead show in about 1971. Torandor Valley was also there, I think, and Paul Towers too probably but it was GR that stuck with me.

Good morning John,

 

'Trigger warning' acknowledged.

 

A fine RTR model 'inferior' to a scratch- or kit-built one? 

 

Only in terms of haulage?

 

 

I took this Hornby RTR A3, changed its identity, replaced the bogie wheels and weathered it; then sold it. Why?

 

 

 

Because it just couldn't haul trains like these, here pulled by my South Eastern Finecast ENTERPRISE (painted by Geoff Haynes). 

 

The train in the first shot is 14-cars long.

 

Seen here in its entirety...............

 

 

All built from metal kits! 

 

Here, it's hauled by a DJH A1 - no Bachmann RTR A1 will look at this. 

 

Granted, not all layout owners/builders are 'loonies' like me, but, for my needs, it has to be kit-built locos.

 

Garsdale Road? The most-exciting thing David Jenkinson ever created. Though my memory crumbles, I saw it (I think) at Central Hall, and never looked at anything else. Nick Campling was helping him operate it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

 

[TrevorP1]

Yes, Garsdale Road was at Central Hall. We spent ages watching it too.

The gauge 1 live steam is about the only other thing I can remember. (Unless you count Dad taking me into the Irish pub along the street to enjoy his lunchtime pint!).

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

Prototype question.

 

What type of timber was used for sleepers from construction during the mid 19th century and retained in use into the 1950s?  There seem to be various answers around the interned from Elm and Baltic Pine all the way to Jarrah all the way from Western Australia.  I though I might find a better informed answer on this group.

 

Generally Baltic pine and similar, treated with creosote - from the later 19th century onwards, under pressure at the railway companies' own creosote works such as the Midland's at Beeston and the LSWR's at I forget where, but the subject of a rather nice late steam period 00 layout that I saw recently, either at Abingdon or Basingstoke shows. I'm not at all sure exactly when the pressure treatment was introduced. Timber sleepers can still be found today in pointwork but I don't know how they are treated. Vast quantities of Baltic timber were imported through Hull and West Hartlepool.

 

I think, but will welcome correction, that tropical hardwoods were generally used locally and not in Britain - it being a case of it being more economic to use local materials than to import from temperate pine-growing regions.

 

The railways generally consumed vast quantities of timber - where is it all now? (Largely, in the atmosphere as CO2 contributing to global warming.)

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

the LSWR's at I forget where, but the subject of a rather nice late steam period 00 layout that I saw recently, either at Abingdon or Basingstoke shows.

Redbridge.

[maico]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

The railways generally consumed vast quantities of timber - where is it all now? (Largely, in the atmosphere as CO2 contributing to global warming.)

 

My parents garden in Highgate N. London backs onto the Parkland walk nature reserve. This is the old line that ran from Finsbury Park up to Highgate and Ally Pally. When the line was lifted lots of the sleepers, perhaps all, seem to have ended up in peoples gardens locally.

Also stood end on end as fencing for Parkland Walk itself.

I came across an add in an old local paper in the area that was advertising salvage from the recently demolished hall in Crouch End in the 1880s.Timbers, roof slates, flag stones and, stone mullion windows all up for auction. Indeed you can see the flag stones used as normal pavement in Crouch End. They could date back to the 15th century reused more than once. The timber likely ended up in the Victorian housing that was being built in the area.

For hundreds of years little went to waste. Indeed today some types of old bricks are more valuable than new and genuine flag stones are very expensive.

 

Edited May 2 by maico

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, maico said:

For hundreds of years little went to waste. Indeed today some types of old bricks are more valuable than new and genuine flag stones are very expensive.

 

I was thinking not only of the timber that went into p/way and architectural use but also carriages and wagons. There were perhaps somewhere around five or six million wood framed wagons built for use on Britain's railways - that's an awful lot of oak and pine. 

[The Fatadder]

Could I have some white metal kit building advice please?

 

I’ve just bought a trio of Genesis Kits for a modern wagon.  Looking at the main casting they are very misshapen.  The long flat centre of the wagon is anything but straight and flat and is out in all three plains. 
 

looking for so advice as to how best to straighten them.   I guess the worst case I could unsolder the end platforms and replace the centre section with brass, but I’d prefer to try sorting  what I have first 

[maico]

Thinking back to my days as a young boy in London in the early 70s we used to visit demolition sites. They used to have large bonfires on most sites burning all sorts with thick acrid smoke. I don't think that is allowed these days.

There were also piles of asbestos. They knew some types were a health hazard but still let it blow around. The bad old days...

 

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

So am I - but (trigger warning: pebble about to be thrown into pond) I'm equally puzzled as to how some people could consider a fine RTR model as 'inferior' to a scratch- or kit-built one...

 

I first saw Garsdale Road at a Hemel Hempstead show in about 1971. Torandor Valley was also there, I think, and Paul Towers too probably but it was GR that stuck with me.

Well, if that kit happened to have the name Martin Finney or Dave Bradwell on it and was built and painted with expertise, then I think that the rtr model’s presence would stand diminished in the shadows,  at least when it comes to the valve gear, handrails, overall finesse of detail, and especially paint (Hornby LNER pea soup green anybody?).

[cctransuk]

16 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

Could I have some white metal kit building advice please?

 

I’ve just bought a trio of Genesis Kits for a modern wagon.  Looking at the main casting they are very misshapen.  The long flat centre of the wagon is anything but straight and flat and is out in all three plains. 
 

looking for so advice as to how best to straighten them.   I guess the worst case I could unsolder the end platforms and replace the centre section with brass, but I’d prefer to try sorting  what I have first 

 

Being pewter, it should be possible to straighten the castings by hand pressure alone.

 

Place the casting on a piece of plywood / chipboard / etc., and apply steady, gentle downward pressure with a smaller piece of wood.

 

Take it slow and steady - pewter will not like sharp, heavy bending and might crack.

 

This warping problem is common to most whitemetal kits - easing out any distortion is one of the first tasks in building such kits.

 

CJI.

[The Fatadder]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

Being pewter, it should be possible to straighten the castings by hand pressure alone.

 

Place the casting on a piece of plywood / chipboard / etc., and apply steady, gentle downward pressure with a smaller piece of wood.

 

Take it slow and steady - pewter will not like sharp, heavy bending and might crack.

 

This warping problem is common to most whitemetal kits - easing out any distortion is one of the first tasks in building such kits.

 

CJI.

Thanks, will have a crack at them this evening.  They are a second hand purchase from eBay (already started)  with a fair bit of solder clogging up some of the holes.  Would have been a lot easier to straighten the parts out first!

one is at least fairly straight, the second is curved in one axis only while the third is curved in three axis and will be by far the most difficult to fix.

 

I started building this one back when the kit was released getting on for 20 years ago (all be it I only finished it last year).  Replacing a fair few parts with scratch built brass bits as the castings were so poor.

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, The Fatadder said:

Thanks, will have a crack at them this evening.  They are a second hand purchase from eBay (already started)  with a fair bit of solder clogging up some of the holes.  Would have been a lot easier to straighten the parts out first!

one is at least fairly straight, the second is curved in one axis only while the third is curved in three axis and will be by far the most difficult to fix.

 

I started building this one back when the kit was released getting on for 20 years ago (all be it I only finished it last year).  Replacing a fair few parts with scratch built brass bits as the castings were so poor.

 

Genesis kits can be a 'challenge'!

 

CJI.

[jrg1]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Genesis kits can be a 'challenge'!

 

CJI.

I gave up on a Genesis well wagon-I simply could not correct warping in the side castings.  It was re-purposed as ballast wieghts, after melting down.  I also have a couple of Genesis containers-out of square in every dimension, a couple of rhomboidal parallelograms.

[The Fatadder]

22 minutes ago, jrg1 said:

I gave up on a Genesis well wagon-I simply could not correct warping in the side castings.  It was re-purposed as ballast wieghts, after melting down.  I also have a couple of Genesis containers-out of square in every dimension, a couple of rhomboidal parallelograms.

ive done the same with one of their steel wagons, there’s a good reason my first faa build took the best part of 20 years to finish!  Hopefully these don’t take another 20!

[DenysW]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

where is it all now?

Some (from the Highland branch to Fortrose, closed in the early 1950s) was used as the roof of the village drain (aka open sewer) in Fortrose when that was covered over and used as a road.  It had started to fail in the 2010s - I was told this by the local Scottish Water area manager.

 

In the 1840s onwards some sleepers  were also kyanized, which preserves wood using mercuric chloride. Ah, the good old days.

[john new]

I recall Tangmere doing the light engine reversal at Yeovil Pen Mill a few years back after working a very delayed special down to Weymouth. Tender empty of coal and every bit of scrap timber lying around went into the tender and firebox so it still had some sort of fire as it set off up the last leg for servicing at the Junction. 

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, john new said:

I recall Tangmere doing the light engine reversal at Yeovil Pen Mill a few years back after working a very delayed special down to Weymouth. Tender empty of coal and every bit of scrap timber lying around went into the tender and firebox so it still had some sort of fire as it set off up the last leg for servicing at the Junction. 

 

At Southport we regularly used to top up the firebox with sawn up bits of old sleeper and broken up pallets. Coal was expensive and we didn't tend to need much pressure to operate. Just enough to move a couple of coaches and use the injectors. We weren't going up Shap with fifteen on!

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On the theme of undervaluing kit builds, today's purchase of an immaculately constructed and finished DJH S&DJR small boiler 7F 2-8-0 in LMS livery. Under £50 for a subject not available from RTR!

 

Although sold as a non-runner, I was confident that it would work due to the wear on the wheels and its immaculate tidiness.  And it does run -  only very sweetly - perfect.

[John Tomlinson]

6 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

Well, if that kit happened to have the name Martin Finney or Dave Bradwell on it and was built and painted with expertise, then I think that the rtr model’s presence would stand diminished in the shadows,  at least when it comes to the valve gear, handrails, overall finesse of detail, and especially paint (Hornby LNER pea soup green anybody?).

 

If those conditions were satisfied, you may well be correct.

 

Very likely it would also come, if a professional painting and lining job was included, at a price up to 10 times that of something RTR.

 

John.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

5 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

If those conditions were satisfied, you may well be correct.

 

Very likely it would also come, if a professional painting and lining job was included, at a price up to 10 times that of something RTR.

 

John.

I think given the right paint (an old Humbrol authentic colour or a good mix of the standard range from back then) even a amateur with any old brush could suffice, But I do understand the expenditure barrier that prevents many from getting a miniature spray gun or airbrush, which would allow a good application of a paint from Precision's range (or really anything with pigment in it, like those annoying acrylics that some people like for some reason).

 

I'm quite sure that with some effort and time, a poor kit can be brought to more than equal an rtr equivalent.  Either way, for LNER green and Garter blue locos (though this still applies for many other liveries), the rtr shade would need to go anyway, so perhaps the best compromise is to pick up a slightly battered rtr loco for a decent discount, repaint and fix annoying valve gear inaccuracies, and then just keep adding detail piece by piece. 

 

In some time, the cost will be spread out and the result can still look better than the new rtr offering.

[Tony Wright]

I've managed to fix the buckled motion on the LNER green Pro-Scale V2 seen the other day.............

 

 

It now works without jamming, but aesthetically there are issues. The slidebars are from a Millholme 'Goldcast' pack from the last century. Gold, I would think meant high-quality, but no. I did think of using a Comet slidebar, but the crosshead was far too fat, so this will have to do. It's for a friend, at no charge, so I have to be pragmatic. For a really good job (at some expense, mind), I would have replaced all the motion with Comet V2 components, but that's not the brief. Toning down/weathering the motion would improve the appearance. 

 

At least it runs now; with Portescap power, rather well. And, at an eBay price of £100.00, a bargain could one say now? 

 

Painting has been mentioned - the paint job on this is good enough to justify even more than £100.00, so yes! 

 

 

Here its passed by one of my Hammett/Geary Pro-Scale V2s, this one (like the other) towing a Bachmann tender (Pro-Scale's tender is the rarest behind V2s).  I think 60862 was originally 60831 (a GC section engine, but Gilbert Barnatt, the previous owner, had someone change the number; and it shows - a touch more weathering?).

 

I built my own GREEN ARROW....................

 

 

From a Crownline kit, which Ian Rathbone painted (beautifully). A favourite V2, but 'namers' always were. 

 

 

Edited May 2 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, DenysW said:

In the 1840s onwards some sleepers  were also kyanized, which preserves wood using mercuric chloride. Ah, the good old days.

A recently retired colleague has the surname Kyan and is a direct descendent of the inventor.