Wright writes.....

[polybear]

With regard to the latter, I had a group of 5th/6th years building locos from scratch in OO as part of their GCSE studies.

 

Or a teacher, as I did, organise weekend trips to railway depots and works? The hired-coach was bulging! 

 

 

Jeez Tony - why oh why weren't you MY Teacher??

And how many RMWebber's have kids at a school that still has Metalwork lessons, using lathes etc. etc??

 

polybear

[Smiffy2]

I can top that.

(Apart from Adrian Barnard and his layout round his classroom)

 

I did metalwork at school, and it was pretty dull, until we got a new teacher. He announced he had a project for us - turned out to be renovation of a 3½" gauge live steam pacific. Included making new castings and turning tyres (schools had proper workshops in those days). Unfortunately I left before it was finished.

[Anglian]

Perhaps I was lucky that I was at schools where art and being good at art was considered cool. Going to art college rather studying an academic subject at university was definitely cool. (Apparently that should that now be spelt 'kewl' for full effect.) From time to time when working with clients or just meeting people they are very curious about what 'being at art college' was really like. Well in my experience it turned out to be a very cool way to get a couple of degrees without having to sit any dreadful written exams. It was more a case of turn up everyday and spend as much time as you can doing what you enjoy and are good at. I wrote my undergrad thesis on railway travel posters (bit more to it than just the posters per se) and I ended up working for ten years for various rail regulators. 

 

When I began my career I thought I'd been successful in what I'd set-out to do with my life simply because I didn't have to wear a suit and tie to go to work and yet I was still considered a 'professional' in spite of the ubiquitous jeans and T shirt. A naive view of the world of work for certain but I'd still write that having any creative talent, in whatever form that may be expressed, is pretty cool, isn't it?

[Nimbus]

Can we have a "Lucky bar steward" button please?

 

The Nim.

[queensquare]

Quite how you justify an ex LNWR 0-8-2T on the North Somerset Light I have no idea but as there has been no 2mm on this thread for some time I thought it might be an appropriate time to share a picture of Nigel Hunt's superb model slumbering on shed at Tucking Mill. It not only runs as well as it looks but coped admirably with some of the tighter sections of track without spreading the rails:-)

 

 

Jerry  

 

 

[westerner]

Mickey that means I agree with your original post.

[Steve-e]

JeremyC, on 29 Jan 2015 - 11:59, said:

We are always hearing about the demise of kit building, but go along to a Games Workshop shop and you'll find a huge number of younger folk purchasing their kits. So is this problem unique to model railways? One problem we have of course is that unlike Games Workshop enthusiasts railway modellers need to make a working model.

Jeremy

 

 

The manufacturers are missing out on a cross over take "Hobbiton End" I think it’s great, I showed it to my son he thought it was "cool" he suggested I make a Zelda train? I had to look it up http://zeldawiki.org/Spirit_Train

 

People have scratch built some Si-fi layouts see here

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrwMkG_rPdQ and those like Hobbiton End they are what the younger generation looks too as they can relate to them as been acceptable.

 

A tie in like this may make railway modelling "cool" OK probably not for those modelling the “real thing” the but their money goes to the manufacturers who in turn produce newer models for us.

 

The benefit also to a manufacturer who grasps this idea is that the sales would be world wide and not country specific.

 

 

Steve

[chrisf]

It doesn't do it for me. I realise this comes over as the negativity usual on these pages, but the door windows do not appear to go high enough. The roof profile also looks suspect. As regards choc & cream, I just wonder how many full brakes were finished in this livery to (presumably) run in top line passenger trains

 

Half a dozen or so.  The Red Dragon had one and a couple were to be found in the formation of Ocean Liner boat trains.  One was even pilfered for use in the Bournemouth Belle.

 

Chris

[Clive Mortimore]

All this doom and gloom about kit building. It was us the modellers that asked for better models, it was us the modellers that asked for more choice than a Brush type 2 and a Princess Elizabeth, so it is us the modellers that have pushed kit building to one side.

 

The world has moved on that is why we are not seeing so many younger people joining the hobby, so what if they have other things in their lives to take up their spare time. It was only a generation before most of us that railway modelling was a hobby for middle class professional men not one for all. It has always been one that changes.

 

 

If you read many of the topics on RMweb, somebody will invariable say something along the lines of "it's my train set",  "I like playing trains", "railway modelling should be fun" (but not interesting, fulfilling, entertaining, skilful or satisfying), etc. 

 

If we don't portray our hobby as something more than adults playing at what seems to be a child's hobby, why should anyone else?

Lighten up Jol.

 

Most other past times involve playing, you play musical instruments, you play sports, you play a wargame (as nerdy as model railways) and you play a computer game. How many people play along with quiz games on the telly. You even play a DVD when sat on your sofa.

 

We can all view what others do as strange. The thought of rolling around in mud with 29 other men for an hour or so, then have a communal shower with them sounds quite perverse. Especially when the main object is to get your hands on an odd shaped ball. Some call it Rugby Football.

[edcayton]

Surely in the "good old days" of Norris and Basset-Lowke it was all about rich people paying trade chappies to build their railways for them. I remember from my youth an older, well-heeled gentleman wit an extensive 0 gauge system in his loft. All professionally done, he also paid for a large 00 layout to be built for the junior section of the club.

 

Ed

[St Enodoc]

Half a dozen or so.  The Red Dragon had one and a couple were to be found in the formation of Ocean Liner boat trains.  One was even pilfered for use in the Bournemouth Belle.

 

Chris

According to a list I downloaded from somewhere - probably Robert Carroll's BR Coaching Stock Yahoo group site - as at 1/1/62 only W80713 and W80714 were in chocolate and cream.

 

I agree with Coachmann about the windows. The fixed sidelights look too tall and the door droplights look too short.

[Jol Wilkinson]

All this doom and gloom about kit building. It was us the modellers that asked for better models, it was us the modellers that asked for more choice than a Brush type 2 and a Princess Elizabeth, so it is us the modellers that have pushed kit building to one side.

 

The world has moved on that is why we are not seeing so many younger people joining the hobby, so what if they have other things in their lives to take up their spare time. It was only a generation before most of us that railway modelling was a hobby for middle class professional men not one for all. It has always been one that changes.

 

 

Lighten up Jol.

 

Most other past times involve playing, you play musical instruments, you play sports, you play a wargame (as nerdy as model railways) and you play a computer game. How many people play along with quiz games on the telly. You even play a DVD when sat on your sofa.

 

We can all view what others do as strange. The thought of rolling around in mud with 29 other men for an hour or so, then have a communal shower with them sounds quite perverse. Especially when the main object is to get your hands on an odd shaped ball. Some call it Rugby Football.

Many  modellers may have pushed kit building to one side, I see that as their loss. Anyone can have a D11,  LNER Atlantic, Derby Lightweight set, LMS 10000/10001, all it takes is money. Where's the "fun" in that?

 

Indeed you do play games, instruments, etc. but the skill/effort involved in doing that is usually recognised by those that listen and watch. People don't "play" model helicopters/gliders/planes, they fly them, model ships are sailed/manoeuvred, R/C cars are driven/raced.

 

So don't tell me to lighten up Clive. I see model railways as constructive, fulfilling, worthwhile, even entertaining. If that is too heavy for you, so be it.

 

Jol

Edited January 30, 2015 by LNWRmodeller

[johnarcher]

As you say (may I call you LNW for short?), the word play is a distraction, I think most people would see the skill etc involved in Roger Federer playing tennis as rather different from that of a six-year old playing with toys.

I think this may matter a bit, possibly people who could be real and skilful modellers, and really contribute something worthwhile, may be deterred from joining in the hobby if its public image is of adults playing with ready-made toys - either because they think that's all it is, or because they don't want to be seen like that. There is much more than that going on, but do people outside realise it?

[johnarcher]

All this doom and gloom about kit building. It was us the modellers that asked for better models, it was us the modellers that asked for more choice than a Brush type 2 and a Princess Elizabeth, so it is us the modellers that have pushed kit building to one side.

 

 

'us the modellers' ? Some modellers surely. No doubt a good many people asked for better models, but also some were just working on making them.

Edited January 30, 2015 by johnarcher

[Focalplane]

It is quite possible that the demographics of the model railway world is going to change significantly in the years ahead.  This is particularly true for those of us who witnessed the last days of steam and remember steam locos for what they were then, not the pristine museum pieces that run on our heritage lines (I am not knocking them, it's just that they are not the same as it was back then).

 

As the demographics change, so will the availability of models to purchase and kits to build.  It is quite possible that the RTR side will shrink, but kit building could well enjoy a renaissance as we come to grips with 3D printing, etc.  The changes are already happening, just look at some of the forum topics that are becoming more and more popular.

 

Personal 3D printers are becoming a reality - look at the B9 Creator - with potential detailing down to the all important rivets (at scale size, possibly too small for some of us to count).  Print your own building papers and card kits are a revelation to the owner of an ink jet printer.

 

Whether or not this will be good for the pastime?  Only time will tell.

[Mallard60022]

It is quite possible that the demographics of the model railway world is going to change significantly in the years ahead.  This is particularly true for those of us who witnessed the last days of steam and remember steam locos for what they were then, not the pristine museum pieces that run on our heritage lines (I am not knocking them, it's just that they are not the same as it was back then).

 

As the demographics change, so will the availability of models to purchase and kits to build.  It is quite possible that the RTR side will shrink, but kit building could well enjoy a renaissance as we come to grips with 3D printing, etc.  The changes are already happening, just look at some of the forum topics that are becoming more and more popular.

 

Personal 3D printers are becoming a reality - look at the B9 Creator - with potential detailing down to the all important rivets (at scale size, possibly too small for some of us to count).  Print your own building papers and card kits are a revelation to the owner of an ink jet printer.

 

Whether or not this will be good for the pastime?  Only time will tell.

Voice of reason....well said mate.

P

[coachmann]

LNWRmodeller, on 29 Jan 2015 - 13:52, said:

If you read many of the topics on RMweb, somebody will invariable say something along the lines of "it's my train set",  "I like playing trains", "railway modelling should be fun" (but not interesting, fulfilling, entertaining, skilful or satisfying), etc. 

Agreed...... Building models of things is interesting, fulfilling, entertaining, skilful and satisfying. Those who disagree will just have to accept that talking gibberish just to look cool is not to everyone’s taste.          

Edited January 30, 2015 by coachmann

[Mallard60022]

Before some of us challenge the others to a 'contest' in the playground, can I just say that in the mid 70s I almost got a job in a school near Derby that had a model railway. It was part of the Job Description that the appointed teacher would have responsibility for that and the School MR Club that went with it. I didn't accept the offer of interview as I had just got another offer elsewhere. One of life's little change of directions; what might have been etc?

Long after I'd left teaching in the early 80s and was working in Sussex (around 1995 or 96 I think) I 'discovered' a Primary school that had a Model Railway Club and layout. I think I saw a picture in the local paper....can't quite remember how I found out. It would be the case that when the teacher or Headteacher that had the railway interest left the school, the 'club' would probably fizzle out!

Returning to Tony's 'exploits' in his job, I too had the opportunity to work with young people that really enjoyed model railways, real railways and the things associated with railways (engineering, history). There is no way that these days a male teacher would be allowed, (as in 1971/2), to take a mixed group of around twenty 11 year olds to Reading from Reigate to train spot for the day with no other adults as support!  

By the way, I taught in Junior/Middle Schools. Craft and Games mainly. Youngsters used to enjoy my 'subjects' and I enjoyed working with them. What I didn't enjoy was the Staff Room politics and how petty some colleagues were. I saw the National Curriculum coming and made my escape.

What's this got to do with modelling? Well I am still in occasional contact with quite a few of those pupils and  several of them are involved in some sort of modelling hobby, including railways. I wonder if any are RMWebbers?

P 

[buffalo]

It is quite possible that the demographics of the model railway world is going to change significantly in the years ahead.  This is particularly true for those of us who witnessed the last days of steam and remember steam locos for what they were then, not the pristine museum pieces that run on our heritage lines (I am not knocking them, it's just that they are not the same as it was back then)...

Of course interests will change over time but, if I understand you correctly, you are assuming that folk always model what they remember. Certainly, many do and are encouraged to do so by the limited temporal range of models offered by the rtr manufacturers. However, many of us who choose to build kits or scratchbuild using whatever methods we prefer do not model what we remember. I am old enough to remember steam but I choose to model the much earlier late Victorian and Edwardian eras, and see no reason why interest in such times would decline over time. Modelling periods may be influenced by fashion and other external factors. For example, there has recently been a growth in interest in WW1 models resulting from the widespread commemoration of the centenary.

 

...Personal 3D printers are becoming a reality - look at the B9 Creator - with potential detailing down to the all important rivets (at scale size, possibly too small for some of us to count).  Print your own building papers and card kits are a revelation to the owner of an ink jet printer...

3D printing and other developing techniques simply add to our arsenal of modelling methods. A wider range of methods may encourage more people to try them but, like anything else, they require their own skill sets. Models do not simply drop out of printers, you need motivation and then the design skills and experience with the machine to be able to produce anything. Different skills but essentially no different to any other modelling technique. I might add that decent printers, like the B9, are still significantly more expensive that entry level machine tools and material costs are not insignificant.

 

Nick

Edited January 30, 2015 by buffalo

[t-b-g]

I think a number of people, myself included, sometimes refer to our layouts as "train sets" more as a term of affection and as a nod to how we know the rest of the world sees us, rather than out of any attempt to turn the hobby into "toy trains". Before pretty much every operating session, somebody always says "Shall we go and play trains?"

 

We don't play! We try to operate a layout as well as we can in accordance with a timetable, using as near correct operation practices as we can. When we have finished, we often comment on how much fun we have just had "playing trains". The idea that having fun somehow reduces "proper" model railways to toy train sets is not one I can get my head around.

 

As has been said on here before, most of my friends take the modelling very seriously but never ourselves.

 

I would add a few more words to Jol's list of terms to describe the building of models. These world include challenging, sometimes frustrating, educational and perhaps most importantly, enjoyable. If it wasn't, I wouldn't do it.

[Tony Wright]

'us the modellers' ? Some modellers surely. No doubt a good many people asked for better models, but also some were just working on making them.

Perfectly put, in response to a previous post. And, to follow up on that post........

 

I class myself as a modeller, working with other modellers down the years. Though I've written umpteen reviews with regard to RTR offerings down the years (with gushing praise on many, more recent occasions), speaking personally, I've never asked for better RTR stuff. Quite frankly, amongst the builders at WMRC we couldn't have given much of a fig what the out-of-the-box stuff was like. We just made what we needed, and were reliant on a splendid kit-base for our requirements. Or, we scratch-built or generated our own kits. If anything I've 'demanded' (rather than just asked for) better kits through my test-building, reviewing and writing kit instructions. 

 

One could say there's an element of 'elitism' in all the above, but where is it enshrined that 'all will be equal', in anything? Compared with some of the peerless creations I've photographed down the years, what I've produced is very poor. But, and though this might sound more and more like a stuck record, I've made things, and been involved with other modellers who've made things. For those who can't make things, then what the RTR boys have given them in more recent times must seem like Cornucopia. If they class themselves as modellers, then they've got what they asked for. 

 

Many modellers have never asked for better RTR stuff, but it'll be those, the makers of things, who'll 'suffer' when complete kits are rare and all the necessary bits to complete them are even rarer. Please don't ask me to celebrate when this 'doom and gloom' scenario occurs (or might do). 

Edited January 30, 2015 by Tony Wright

[t-b-g]

Of course interests will change over time but, if I understand you correctly, you are assuming that folk always model what they remember. Certainly, many do and are encouraged to do so by the limited temporal range of models offered by the rtr manufacturers. However, many of us who choose to build kits or scratchbuild using whatever methods we prefer do not model what we remember. I am old enough to remember steam but I choose to model the much earlier late Victorian and Edwardian eras, and see no reason why interest in such times would decline over time. Modelling periods may be influenced by fashion and other external factors. For example, there has recently been a growth in interest in WW1 models resulting from the widespread commemoration of the centenary.

 

 

3D printing and other developing techniques simply add to our arsenal of modelling methods. A wider range of methods may encourage more people to try them but, like anything else, they require their own skill sets. Models do not simply drop out of printers, you need motivation and then the design skills and experience with the machine to be able to produce anything. Different skills but essentially no different to any other modelling technique.

 

Nick

 

 

I also model the railway scene of long before I was born. When people ask me why I don't model what I knew, I reply that I can remember what I knew so I don't need to build models of it.

 

I build what I wish I had seen and modelling is the only way I can get to see the locos that I would have wanted to see pulling trains.

 

I have very mixed feelings about the new technology though and I do disagree with people who say that 3D printing is the same as scratchbuilding from sheet metal etc.

 

It is a very skilful thing to be able to do good 3D CAD design but it is a completely different skill to using a piercing saw etc. to cut metal from a sheet.

 

The only thing the "builder" may have touched before he or she has a 3D model in their hands is a keyboard. OK, it is just a "tool" but it is a real game changer in terms of the types of skill required. 3D printing does not require a steady hand or the ability to mark out and cut a dead straight line (the computer and printer does that for you, all you have to do is tell it where to cut). You don't need to be able to mark out and measure a dead 90 degree corner, as you tell the computer that you want 90 degrees and you get it. But when it comes to complex curves and the arrangement of parts in relation to one another, some of the work done on CAD is simply stunning. 

 

Turning a drawing and some photos into a 3D CAD drawing is way beyond me and I am full of admiration for those who can do it and when I see some of the wonderful drawings that appear on here on in the press they take my breath away.

 

But the skills needed to produce such works of art must be quite different to the ones I use, otherwise I would be able to do both!

 

Tony

Edited January 30, 2015 by t-b-g

[coachmann]

The casual reference to 3D printing & developing bemuses me. How many of the folk who mention it are already capable of producing CAD design for etching on brass? The chaps that translate my ideas are, to my mind, very capable gentlemen, as it involves a great deal of mathematics and knowledge of line weight and fold allowances. In comparison to locomotives, coaches are relatively straightforward boxes. So for those used to opening red and blue boxes AND quite a good number of builders too, I cannot see them turning to 3D to churn out desirable loco bodies that the RTR companies refuse to consider.

Edited January 30, 2015 by coachmann

[buffalo]

...I have very mixed feelings about the new technology though and I do disagree with people who say that 3D printing is the same as scratchbuilding from sheet metal etc...

But that's not what I said, Tony. They are not the same skills, but the point is that both require skills.

 

...It is a very skilful thing to be able to do good 3D CAD design but it is a completely different skill to using a piercing saw etc. to cut metal from a sheet...

It also requires different skills to make models from card or plastic or to turn a chimney on a lathe. We can't expect all of us to have all the skills for all the methods. As it happens, I do have the necessary CAD and 3D modelling skills from years of professional use, and I could get access to a 3D printer, laser cutter, etc. if I wanted to. If so, I would then have to develop further skills in using them to the best effect. However, when I returned to modelling some years before my retirement, part of the motivation was to develop and employ the more 'mechanical' or 'manual' skills rather than the 'virtual' skills of the day job. I've continued that since retirement but it's always possible I might return to the virtual approach now and then.

 

Concentrating on the differences invariably leads to value judgements about other peoples' unfamiliar skills whereas we should really be celebrating the fact that different folk are employing different skills to so some modelling.

 

Nick

[Focalplane]

For the first time in life I am now able to do what I want to do with my time (except when SWKB needs something!) and surprisingly the first two challenges after taking retirement were to master SketchUp and also understand the future of 3D printing as far as railway modeling is concerned.  A couple of years ago I bought a few shares in Dassault Systemes, a spin off from the French airplane manufacturer.  I didn't keep them very long but what I learned from my investment research was most interesting and will have implications for our hobby.

 

(Take a look at what alanbuttler is doing with his skills at 3D printing.  Yes, this is embryonic and expensive at this stage, but the challenges are worth looking into because this is a future skill set for the hobby.  Interesting that Alan has also picked up a soldering iron for the first time!)

 

At the same time I am honing my traditional skills of kit building and, soon, track building.  Both were skills I started to learn in my early 20s (nearly fifty years ago) but then set aside as my work took over the priority of life.

 

I too am modeling an era that disappeared before I was born - the 1935 era GWR branch to Shipston-on-Stour, just down the road from where I live.  I will take some liberties but I want to capture the times I understand them to have been.  And the trains will include both RTR and brass kits.  I think there is a time and a place for just about anything in our hobby.