Lecorbusier Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tony Wright said: I've just read two separate items concerning having 'fun' in railway modelling............... Both made me splutter into my morning cup of tea! One was related to not taking things too seriously and the other to the recent TV programmes. I inferred from both that having 'fun' was exclusive to 'making things up' or getting involved with time-imperative jeopardy. What nonsense! I've had loads of fun from this hobby, making things as 'accurately' as I can, and not making it competitive or struggling against the tyranny of time. Are modellers who take things 'seriously' seen as hair-shirt freaks, all having glum faces and not hooting with laughter at all? In my opinion, by all means have fun in this hobby, at whatever level one models. I've lost count of the number of times I've collapsed with laughter - often at myself. I have a cunning plan!!!! In this modern world of 'fake news' and 'propaganda' everything is about the 'framing' we are told rather than the substance! so ..... we change the framing - instead of showing our 'work' or 'the work' on this thread perhaps we should be showing 'the play' or 'my latest bit of fun .... ' Instead of careful study of the prototype .... perhaps it could be the relaxation of ' a good read' .... etc etc. remove the good old protestant work ethic from the discussion! For me in many ways this would be a more accurate description .... I don't find modelling work - I could never spend that much time and energy 'working' - and researching/finding out/practicing/getting it as right as possible by ones own criteria is definitely fun ... not to mention extremely rewarding. All a bit tongue in cheek of course .... but there is perhaps a hidden truth here. I suppose the second point here is that model railways are a very broad church ... so more often than not we are comparing apples with kumquats rather than another type of apple!!. Edited September 21, 2019 by Lecorbusier 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted September 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2019 A hobby can be enthralling, absorbing, enjoyable and fulfilling but still be taken quite seriously. I have known railway modellers through the whole range of no visible sense of humour through to giggling chuckling naughty schoolkids. The word fun conjures up frivolity and silliness. I know some top rate model makers, who take their hobby very seriously, who are also quite capable of giggling at themselves and others. If people want to treat the hobby as a bit of a laugh and throw accuracy and following the real railway out of the window and have a layout full of jokes that is fine. It doesn't mean that those of us who don't are not having fun. 4 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted September 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) The hobby has always encompassed differing levels of seriousness and what to some are essentials. I think it is fair to say Tony likes dimensional accuracy whereas I can cope with r-t-r that’s a bit off if it captures the atmosphere of the item. To me sound is a gimmick and annoying at shows whether the fidelity of operating signal box bells or in locos. I’m consistent I don’t like buskers either. Reason most are too loud. Most layouts and rolling stock, too clean and over brightly lit. Is cleanliness a gimmick, it isn’t prototype fidelity. I wouldn’t choose to model a working volcano on my own layout, but would have enjoyed the modelling challenges of both episodes shown so far. Why have I not put my self forward, I don’t work well under that type of extreme time pressure, stress is not fun! Making something unusual, such as scenic props for the theatre etc., is interesting. Fun probably the wrong word for why we model but overcoming a challenge is part of why we do it - be that making a chassis, painting coach lining, building a cattle dock, or a volcano. Over the years my wife and I have made things for the stage from a 10ft stained glass window through to a Holy Hand grenade, a Pharoah’s hat and more related to this thread an 8ft pink Cadillac and a large Harland & Wolfe builders plate. None of them will ever be on one of my layouts but all applications of model making in various degrees. The GMRC is on the hobby’s fringe, like the above, but to win requires things to look plausible and to work. It is connected, and like the difference between us making props/working back stage and the actors, lighting and sound teams = all part of theatre. Edited September 21, 2019 by john new 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, t-b-g said: If people want to treat the hobby as a bit of a laugh and throw accuracy and following the real railway out of the window and have a layout full of jokes that is fine. It doesn't mean that those of us who don't are not having fun. I totally agree with this. I honestly do not care what others are doing. What I do see a lot of in Facebook groups now though is posts with a caption along the lines of "this will really annoy the rivet counters" which is then followed by a pile of comments having a go at anybody who follows an approach that tries to get closer to the real thing. It seems to be to preach tolerance for all yet be intolerant of others who have a different idea of the hobby. Regards, Craig W 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted September 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Craigw said: It seems to be to preach tolerance for all yet be intolerant of others who have a different idea of the hobby. Many people who call themselves tolerant, are fantastically intolerant of anyone whose views (about anything) aren't sufficiently close to their own. In terms of GMRC, whether it is still "railway" modelling (I don't think it is and don't watch it) and is that not normally fun? It is about knowing the difference between taking your work seriously, and taking yourself seriously. I am inspired by people in the former category; ironically the television/entertainment industry seems to be full of people in the latter category. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted September 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Craigw said: I totally agree with this. I honestly do not care what others are doing. What I do see a lot of in Facebook groups now though is posts with a caption along the lines of "this will really annoy the rivet counters" which is then followed by a pile of comments having a go at anybody who follows an approach that tries to get closer to the real thing. It seems to be to preach tolerance for all yet be intolerant of others who have a different idea of the hobby. Regards, Craig W I used to get slightly annoyed by such comments but I have taught myself to ignore them! If people get pleasure from deliberately making modelling errors because they think it will annoy others, that is their choice. I happen to think it isn't the best way to enjoy the hobby but if it pleases them, it doesn't worry me. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted September 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Craigw said: I totally agree with this. I honestly do not care what others are doing. What I do see a lot of in Facebook groups now though is posts with a caption along the lines of "this will really annoy the rivet counters" which is then followed by a pile of comments having a go at anybody who follows an approach that tries to get closer to the real thing. It seems to be to preach tolerance for all yet be intolerant of others who have a different idea of the hobby. Regards, Craig W One of the snags is with the phrase rivet counter. I don't take it to mean someone who knows how many rivets and has enough skill to add them to his/her own model but as referring to the annoying type of person who we've all met who pontificates in a derogatory way. I know one or two modellers skilled enough to be in the former category but none of them fall into the latter camp. Edited September 21, 2019 by john new 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 I tend to enjoy my modelling rather than have fun - same thing ? Probably. (occasionally it's no bl**dy fun at all mauling under the boards at my age !!). Scenery is one of my main interests, and this layout by American modeller Malcolm Furlow from the early 80's was one of my inspirations to "go American". A bit overboard perhaps - but superb scenic modeling - by the way he used a mirror to give an impression of distance - can you spot it ? This is HO scale narrow gauge. I went O gauge, and such scenery is monumental in this scale - not quite the above but my take on Colorado scenery (I've never been there by the way so mostly guesswork from photographs). Trees are offcuts from the garden - easy The rock is real sandstone from road excavations. Each to there own - I agree there are many superb models shown in this thread and they are an inspiration to us all. Tony's magnificent layout is indeed a showcase for such models - perhaps as a showcase layout it could not be bettered - the fast bit of the ECML in the 50's. An American equivalent would be the New York Central's New York - Chicago "Water Level" route with the big 4-8-4 Niagaras hauling the "Twentieth century Limited" . Nearest the Yanks got to a Britannia !!! Brit15 17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, john new said: One of the snags is with the phrase rivet counter. I don't take it to mean someone who knows how many rivets and has enough skill to add them to his/her own model but as referring to the annoying type of person who we've all met who pontificates in a derogatory way. I know one or two modellers skilled enough to be in the former category but none of them fall into the latter camp. I'm more under the impression that 'rivet counter' is used as a general derogatory term to diss anyone who aspires or attempts to model accurately rather than just target the traditional annoying minority type. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 16 minutes ago, grahame said: I'm more under the impression that 'rivet counter' is used as a general derogatory term to diss anyone who aspires or attempts to model accurately rather than just target the traditional annoying minority type. Strangely I have completely the opposite impression ... though often people who try to model accurately do get lumped in the same bag. In my experience 'rivet counter' is used as a passive aggressive defence mechanism against feared criticism and scorn. The irony is that those who really are seriously good tend in my experience to be humble and usually helpful or they just keep quiet .... it is the insufferable ones who like to shout there mouths off and critique/look down upon others, yet often have little substance to there own expertise who seem to cause all the trouble. - but as I say this is only my experience and not particularly broad experience at that. 3 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 37 minutes ago, Lecorbusier said: Strangely I have completely the opposite impression ... though often people who try to model accurately do get lumped in the same bag. In my experience 'rivet counter' is used as a passive aggressive defence mechanism against feared criticism and scorn. Maybe, but my experience is that it is used with such abandon these days, and often as a prelude to a modelling subject, that I see it more as pre-emptive verbal aggression to target anyone who doesn't agree with the premise or subject - usually fanciful non-accurate modelling. But perhaps I'm sensitive and feel such comments are 'having a go' at my modelling philosophy without even having stated it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted September 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Northmoor said: In terms of GMRC, whether it is still "railway" modelling (I don't think it is and don't watch it) and is that not normally fun? I don’t think GMRC is railway modelling as we know it. But (as I discussed with Tony at Woking) it is modelling and does involves trains. I do enjoy the programme, partly for the creativity, but also because it has re-enthused my daughter who had been losing interest, and she’s agreed to help me plant some trees on my layout tomorrow. 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted September 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Northmoor said: In terms of GMRC, whether it is still "railway" modelling (I don't think it is and don't watch it) and is that not normally fun? Edited September 21, 2019 by thegreenhowards Duplicate post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted September 21, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 21, 2019 Wow! Many, many thanks for the current comments. I didn't think I was that good at chucking metaphorical hand grenades! One of the pieces I cited was concerned with the TV programme, and there was also a comment about 'finding Britain's best railway modellers' through it. I found this to be rather strange, because I don't know any railway modellers who I'd call anything near the best who are participants. All the 'best' ones I know wouldn't be seen anywhere near it! I'm sure it's all hugely enjoyable, and if the series generates interest in the hobby then let's accept that as a positive. But 'Britain's best railway modellers'? Anyway, speaking of having fun................................ I've now got all the remaining Gamston stock. Much has already been sold by John Houlden (including most of the mail vehicles). What remains is a mixture of Mk.1s, Gresleys and Thompsons, all (apart from three Bachmann Mk.1s) kit-built. I've already sold the eight-car 'Tees-Tyne Pullman', and I've sold what's seen below to myself. This is a delightful non-gangwayed four-set, including an artic pair of thirds (made by John as a Comet adaptation). How beautifully-natural it looks. There is a 'problem'. Though I sold loads of Gamston's OO stock for John after the layout went up in smoke, what remained (what I now have) was re-gauged to EM to run on Retford. After the death of the great man, it's now been returned to John. Now, the 'fun' bit. I re-gauged the TTP to OO to test it, and last evening I re-gauged this foursome. It required part-dismanting of the bogies (which are soldered together). It was a bit of a fight to say the least, but, as I hope the pictures show, well worth it so that the carriages can run on Little Bytham. Underestimating (by some margin) how long it would take to re-gauge these, I'm now not going to do the whole remaining 30+ cars, but offer them for sale in EM (with a considerable percentage going to CRUK). Potential buyers can then please themselves. The re-gauging isn't necessarily difficult (it's evident where Roy dismantled each bogie from the exposed solder) but I don't have the spare time. I'll be putting together a list for those interested in the near future. I know EM will dissuade some from contemplating buying these lovely cars (many of which are unavailable RTR, including catering vehicles), but any 'modellers' should have no difficulty in re-gauging them. As I conducted the re-gauging, I thought 'it's not huge fun', but it's now great fun running a unique set, built by a friend, hauled by a loco built by a friend (Alan Hammet's K3) and adding something 'real' to a representation of a 'real' railway. Were a volcano suddenly to erupt on Little Bytham, any of the (real) limestone outcrops I've represented would have to be changed to marble! Now, that would be fun! 20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted September 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2019 Tony, this shows the Dynamo. I have stopped fitting nickle silver dynamo drive bands as not many people notice them. Baz 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted September 21, 2019 Author Share Posted September 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, Barry O said: Tony, this shows the Dynamo. I have stopped fitting nickle silver dynamo drive bands as not many people notice them. Baz Thanks Baz, But it's way too high up. The centre of the dynamo should be level with the centre of the bogie axles. I agree that dynamo belts (made from nickel silver or brass strip) are not easily discerned, but you can just make out the one I've added here. Regards, Tony. 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbowilts Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Tony re your post of four hours ago, I’ve sent you a PM Tim T 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Fitzjames Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, t-b-g said: A hobby can be enthralling, absorbing, enjoyable and fulfilling but still be taken quite seriously. I have known railway modellers through the whole range of no visible sense of humour through to giggling chuckling naughty schoolkids. The word fun conjures up frivolity and silliness. I know some top rate model makers, who take their hobby very seriously, who are also quite capable of giggling at themselves and others. If people want to treat the hobby as a bit of a laugh and throw accuracy and following the real railway out of the window and have a layout full of jokes that is fine. It doesn't mean that those of us who don't are not having fun. One just has to look at other modelling disciplines, that don't have the equivalent of RTR/RTP, to give the lie to the notion of po-faced automatons grinding out a cheerless hobby by striving for authenticity. In my experience, military and aircraft types are usually quite jolly types and everything they do involves modelling! Edited September 21, 2019 by James Fitzjames Typo 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted September 21, 2019 Author Share Posted September 21, 2019 44 minutes ago, timbowilts said: Tony re your post of four hours ago, I’ve sent you a PM Tim T I've responded, Tim, When I've compiled the complete list, I'll post it on here. It'll be next week. Regards, Tony. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atso Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 10 hours ago, CF MRC said: 4mm scale extended handrail knobs make excellent queen posts for truss rods Steve. P/B wire is also useful as it has more spring in it than brass (I have loads if you would like some). Tim Thanks for that Tim, I was looking at 2mm scale handrail knobs but hadn't thought of 4mm scale ones. I was thinking of using 10thou guitar wire for the truss rods but have a couple of thicknesses of phosphor bronze as well. I'll be in touch during the week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) Just a note Tony so say how brilliant your modelling and photographs are, never better demonstrated than in this crop of your recent post. Truly beautiful. An inspiration. I won't add smoke! Cheers, from one who while not being a modeller can recognise brilliance, I think. Edited September 21, 2019 by robmcg typo 12 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Wow! Many, many thanks for the current comments. I didn't think I was that good at chucking metaphorical hand grenades! One of the pieces I cited was concerned with the TV programme, and there was also a comment about 'finding Britain's best railway modellers' through it. I found this to be rather strange, because I don't know any railway modellers who I'd call anything near the best who are participants. All the 'best' ones I know wouldn't be seen anywhere near it! I'm sure it's all hugely enjoyable, and if the series generates interest in the hobby then let's accept that as a positive. But 'Britain's best railway modellers'? Anyway, speaking of having fun................................ I've now got all the remaining Gamston stock. Much has already been sold by John Houlden (including most of the mail vehicles). What remains is a mixture of Mk.1s, Gresleys and Thompsons, all (apart from three Bachmann Mk.1s) kit-built. I've already sold the eight-car 'Tees-Tyne Pullman', and I've sold what's seen below to myself. This is a delightful non-gangwayed four-set, including an artic pair of thirds (made by John as a Comet adaptation). How beautifully-natural it looks. There is a 'problem'. Though I sold loads of Gamston's OO stock for John after the layout went up in smoke, what remained (what I now have) was re-gauged to EM to run on Retford. After the death of the great man, it's now been returned to John. Now, the 'fun' bit. I re-gauged the TTP to OO to test it, and last evening I re-gauged this foursome. It required part-dismanting of the bogies (which are soldered together). It was a bit of a fight to say the least, but, as I hope the pictures show, well worth it so that the carriages can run on Little Bytham. Underestimating (by some margin) how long it would take to re-gauge these, I'm now not going to do the whole remaining 30+ cars, but offer them for sale in EM (with a considerable percentage going to CRUK). Potential buyers can then please themselves. The re-gauging isn't necessarily difficult (it's evident where Roy dismantled each bogie from the exposed solder) but I don't have the spare time. I'll be putting together a list for those interested in the near future. I know EM will dissuade some from contemplating buying these lovely cars (many of which are unavailable RTR, including catering vehicles), but any 'modellers' should have no difficulty in re-gauging them. As I conducted the re-gauging, I thought 'it's not huge fun', but it's now great fun running a unique set, built by a friend, hauled by a loco built by a friend (Alan Hammet's K3) and adding something 'real' to a representation of a 'real' railway. Were a volcano suddenly to erupt on Little Bytham, any of the (real) limestone outcrops I've represented would have to be changed to marble! Now, that would be fun! Evening Tony, lucky you. That is a lovely set, I have to build mine, apparently it's no fun at all. 4 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Thanks Baz, But it's way too high up. The centre of the dynamo should be level with the centre of the bogie axles. I agree that dynamo belts (made from nickel silver or brass strip) are not easily discerned, but you can just make out the one I've added here. Regards, Tony. Although the first thirty of the d 86 vans probably had electric lighting, it was removed from them all by 1930. As electrical creatures, they didn't require the grab handles and steps that allowed access to the later gas lamps and fillers located on the roof. This was added to the first thirty when converted to gas lighting. All the vans to d 86 and 87 (Milk van) received gas lighting, this was removed from a small number of the vehicles under BR. The model is only suitable for the first thirty prior to 1930 but without the end steps and grab handles. In original condition, it would most certainly have carried a second battery box, as was the standard LNER practice of the time. The two diagrams were dual braked, though BR removed the Westinghouse brake from a number of vans. I notice that you have fitted both the Westinghouse and vacuum braking cylinders but only the hose for the Westinghouse brake. What a shame that BR went up the blind alley of the cupboard door van. If a batch of these had been produced in the 50's, they would most certainly have been built with electric lighting as with the BR version of the GWR Fruit D. I recently discovered (by photograph) that what was described in the CWN's as a 'large lighted van' was one of these d 86 General vans. Not much 'fun' in all that, but a good enough excuse for me to build one, I've almost completed it. I may dig out the old camera, charge up the battery and take a pic. Edited September 21, 2019 by Headstock para seperation 2 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffordshire Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Wow! Many, many thanks for the current comments. I didn't think I was that good at chucking metaphorical hand grenades! One of the pieces I cited was concerned with the TV programme, and there was also a comment about 'finding Britain's best railway modellers' through it. I found this to be rather strange, because I don't know any railway modellers who I'd call anything near the best who are participants. All the 'best' ones I know wouldn't be seen anywhere near it! I'm sure it's all hugely enjoyable, and if the series generates interest in the hobby then let's accept that as a positive. But 'Britain's best railway modellers'? Anyway, speaking of having fun................................ I've now got all the remaining Gamston stock. Much has already been sold by John Houlden (including most of the mail vehicles). What remains is a mixture of Mk.1s, Gresleys and Thompsons, all (apart from three Bachmann Mk.1s) kit-built. I've already sold the eight-car 'Tees-Tyne Pullman', and I've sold what's seen below to myself. This is a delightful non-gangwayed four-set, including an artic pair of thirds (made by John as a Comet adaptation). How beautifully-natural it looks. There is a 'problem'. Though I sold loads of Gamston's OO stock for John after the layout went up in smoke, what remained (what I now have) was re-gauged to EM to run on Retford. After the death of the great man, it's now been returned to John. Now, the 'fun' bit. I re-gauged the TTP to OO to test it, and last evening I re-gauged this foursome. It required part-dismanting of the bogies (which are soldered together). It was a bit of a fight to say the least, but, as I hope the pictures show, well worth it so that the carriages can run on Little Bytham. Underestimating (by some margin) how long it would take to re-gauge these, I'm now not going to do the whole remaining 30+ cars, but offer them for sale in EM (with a considerable percentage going to CRUK). Potential buyers can then please themselves. The re-gauging isn't necessarily difficult (it's evident where Roy dismantled each bogie from the exposed solder) but I don't have the spare time. I'll be putting together a list for those interested in the near future. I know EM will dissuade some from contemplating buying these lovely cars (many of which are unavailable RTR, including catering vehicles), but any 'modellers' should have no difficulty in re-gauging them. As I conducted the re-gauging, I thought 'it's not huge fun', but it's now great fun running a unique set, built by a friend, hauled by a loco built by a friend (Alan Hammet's K3) and adding something 'real' to a representation of a 'real' railway. Were a volcano suddenly to erupt on Little Bytham, any of the (real) limestone outcrops I've represented would have to be changed to marble! Now, that would be fun! Tony, I would like to see a list of what is available, Many thanks, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Tony Wright said: But it's way too high up. The centre of the dynamo should be level with the centre of the bogie axles. Sorry, have to disagree: 1 1 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, James Fitzjames said: One just has to look at other modelling disciplines, that don't have the equivalent of RTR/RTP, to give the lie to the notion of po-faced automatons grinding out a cheerless hobby by striving for authenticity. In my experience, military and aircraft types are usually quite jolly types and everything they do involves modelling! Flying anything RC is always great fun.......mate has a buddy box and I recently was able to say......."I have control," on his newish £5k turbine!!! I was actually shrieking with joy. Im also into AFV modelling.....,RC now and have 3 RC Tigers in various scales. Theres about 50 plus various other models ohhhhhh and I've a Billings tug as well. The best is what we would call (I guess) detailed RTP or But it's had that many mods.......chassis, gearbox, tracks, barrel etc all done by me that it's a different model from what came out of the box. Its 1/16th and will tear the carpet up....literally. When a few of us get together fun ain't the word........especially if it's been snowing! You do still get the odd rivet counters........one show years ago in Plymouth I had one punter telling me all about my 1/35th Land Rover which was based around a Tamiya ambulance, but with quite a bit of it scratch built. He'd never been in the mob or driven one but knew all about what was wrong with it.........he asked me what did I know.......then I told him it was actually a model of MY own LR....... 10 GX 10. Apparently they were never FFR ( fitted for radio) and he would not be told. Happy daze? Edited September 21, 2019 by BlackRat 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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