Wright writes.....

[Tom F]

37 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Without stirring up the old DCC/analogue debate again, when Tom Foster was over on Saturday he mentioned comments from a friend of his which went along the lines of 'You always get smoother running with DCC'. When Tom mentioned he was coming to see LB again, the friend just stated that 'All the trains do on that layout is run round at high speed', or words to that effect.

 

Accepting my innate prejudice, but does DCC always give you superior running to analogue, all other factors being equal? 

 

Thinking about it, shouldn't it? There's always full voltage in the rails (so less risk of hesitation) and doesn't the chip 'smooth-out' the current? Or, am I, as usual, talking b*llocks? 

 

I have seen some superb slow-running locos (mainly diesel/electric-outline) on the 'depot-type' layouts which DCC-users tend to go for. Is stopping and starting improved with DCC?

 

I ask these questions because I really want to know. As I hope any visitors will testify, I get excellent running on LB (and not just with the fast trains, but the stoppers and the pick-ups as well), so analogue suits me fine. LB has been DCC-fitted from time to time (gasp!) for testing new RTR locos, but I've not noticed an appreciable 'improvement ' or is my vision clouded by prejudice? 

 

I have to say that I've seen some rubbish running on analogue, but also probably an equal amount where the control has been DCC. 

 

Over to those who know....................... 

 

 

To follow on from my comments on this (and not wishing to open a hornets nest) this comes on the back of deciding to abandon DCC. For the moment Cwm Prysor shall stay on the Lenz system, but Ffarquhar and any future layouts will be analogue. 

I probably went DCC for all the wrong reasons, essentially as I knew/know little about wiring and the thought of making isolating sections terrified me. So I went with something simpler (or so I thought). However I've had several issues with decoders miss behaving (not cheap decoders either) and I've never been impressed with DCC sound in 4mm. Listening to a full 12-13 coach train clatter through Little Bytham, with the roar of the engine sounded pretty close to the real thing for me.

 

What has surprised me though, has been the response from some other modellers who are DCC, when I've told them I'm giving up DCC. You'd have thought I had two heads!

I know many do enjoy DCC, and have superb results. However, it's not for me....and sadly I've found out the expensive way.

[Clive Mortimore]

28 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Bad running is bad running, irrespective of what control system you use.   If any system could miraculously cure all the different factors which conspire against perfect operation, we'd all be using it.   The same basics apply to whatever scale, gauge or electrical configuration you choose to employ.

 

 

I have managed bad running on both DC and DCC.

 

Good running needs a good electrical supply, clean track , clean wheels and pick ups. It also requires a reliable mechanical means of transmitting the action of the motor to the wheels, again free of muck and suitably lubricated. The device for controlling the model loco needs to be one the operator is familiar with and knows the limitations of. And lastly the operator needs to know what they are doing, hence my opening statement "I have managed bad running on both DC and DCC."

[t-b-g]

I am no scientist but I have my own theories!

 

I remember, many years ago, being told by a very clever bloke that the motors we use are designed to run best on the sort of DC voltage that is as smooth as possible. He didn't use mains AC transformed to DC because he reckoned that you couldn't beat the lovely smooth DC from a battery.

 

His explanation was that the design of motors, with a commutator creating an on/off pulse of power to each winding on the motor, could be incompatible with a power supply that was also pulsed. So any "chopped" type of input, with the power supply going on and off rapidly could go "out of sync" with the chopped on/off of the commutator. This may cause power surges or dips in the power supply to the coil that would be so short as to be almost impossible to measure without serious kit but may manifest themselves in motors being either noisy or not running as smoothly as they would on a pure DC supply.

 

There are certainly motors on Buckingham that behave differently on different controllers. They are much noisier and "cog" more on a "feedback" pulsed controller than they are on a more smooth DC output type one. That was why I was having that conversation in the first place.

 

My understanding is that DCC chips do exactly the same in that the output from the chip is not a variable smooth voltage. They provide longer or shorter pulses of power at full voltage.

 

It may be total nonsense but it might explain why some motors that run well on 12v dc run like a pig on DCC. Other motors it may not bother at all, if the phasing of the two pulses is about right.

 

I am sure some clever person will shoot me down on this but it does seem to make sense to my simple brain!

 

  

Edited August 24, 2020 by t-b-g
typo

[St Enodoc]

18 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I have managed bad running on both DC and DCC.

 

Good running needs a good electrical supply, clean track , clean wheels and pick ups. It also requires a reliable mechanical means of transmitting the action of the motor to the wheels, again free of muck and suitably lubricated. The device for controlling the model loco needs to be one the operator is familiar with and knows the limitations of. And lastly the operator needs to know what they are doing, hence my opening statement "I have managed bad running on both DC and DCC."

Clive is absolutely right. The converse is also true - if you get those basics right you will get good running with either DC or DCC. The difference is in how you wish to control your trains and your layout. Depending on the answer to that question, DC will suit some people better, DCC will suit others better.

 

Notwithstanding that Clive and I often pull each other's leg over this, to say that one is better than the other is like saying that apples are better than oranges.

[Barry O]

A dc loco which runs badly won't improve if used on DCC.

 

You can easily tune the dcc systems to work with any sort of motor. But trying a plug and play approach won't get the best from any dcc system. Setting inertia levels for acceleration and deceleration provides less "lumpy"control.

 

Carlisle would be unfinished if it had to use miles and miles of dc wiring. The sound on the locos mean you can hear where they are on the layout. You could fit added wiring and sensors to have a form of train location..but..yep..more wiring.

 

@Hawin Dooiey Cwm Prysor could never really repay your outgoings cash wise using dcc.

 

Anyone who has operated or visited Bob Harpers' Canadian On2 and On3 layout will understand how dcc makes a complex layout easy to use.

 

Baz

[Northmoor]

25 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I am no scientist but I have my own theories!

 

I remember, many years ago, being told by a very clever bloke that the motors we use are designed to run best on the sort of DC voltage that is as smooth as possible. He didn't use mains AC transformed to DC because he reckoned that you couldn't beat the lovely smooth DC from a battery.

 

His explanation was that the design of motors, with a commutator creating an on/off pulse of power to each winding on the motor, could be incompatible with a power supply that was also pulsed. So any "chopped" type of input, with the power supply going on and off rapidly could go "out of sync" with the chopped on/off of the commutator. This may cause power surges or dips in the power supply to the coil that would be so short as to be almost impossible to measure without serious kit but may manifest themselves in motors being either noisy or not running as smoothly as they would on a pure DC supply.

 

There are certainly motors on Buckingham that behave differently on different controllers. They are much noisier and "cog" more on a "feedback" pulsed controller than they are on a more smooth DC output type one. That was why I was having that conversation in the first place.

 

My understanding is that DCC chips do exactly the same in that the output from the chip is not a variable smooth voltage. They provide longer or shorter pulses of power at full voltage.

 

It may be total nonsense but it might explain why some motors that run well on 12v dc run like a pig on DCC. Other motors it may not bother at all, if the phasing of the two pulses is about right.

 

I am sure some clever person will shoot me down on this but it does seem to make sense to my simple brain!

 

  

 

That makes "engineering sense" to me, but I suspect the effect of running on one supply and not the other, would be negligible to non-existent to most people.

 

It sounds like self-justification to me, like the sort of people who used gold-plated jack plugs in their hi-fi equipment and tried to convince you they could hear the improvement over standard.  Funny how these people always also seemed to be partially deaf.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 minute ago, Barry O said:

A dc loco which runs badly won't improve if used on DCC.

 

You can easily tune the dcc systems to work with any sort of motor. But trying a plug and play approach won't get the best from any dcc system. Setting inertia levels for acceleration and deceleration provides less "lumpy"control.

 

Carlisle would be unfinished if it had to use miles and miles of dc wiring. The sound on the locos mean you can hear where they are on the layout. You could fit added wiring and sensors to have a form of train location..but..yep..more wiring.

 

@Hawin Dooiey Cwm Prysor could never really repay your outgoings cash wise using dcc.

 

Anyone who has operated or visited Bob Harpers' Canadian On2 and On3 layout will understand how dcc makes a complex layout easy to use.

 

Baz

Hi Baz

 

To add to my list of what makes good running, both DC and DCC is a well designed layout that makes operating easy and fun.

[cctransuk]

5 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

 

That makes "engineering sense" to me, but I suspect the effect of running on one supply and not the other, would be negligible to non-existent to most people.

 

It sounds like self-justification to me, like the sort of people who used gold-plated jack plugs in their hi-fi equipment and tried to convince you they could hear the improvement over standard.  Funny how these people always also seemed to be partially deaf.

 

I can only comment on my own experience of DC; but, since I started using a variable voltage regulator as a controller I have had superb smooth running from all my conventional; (as opposed to coreless); motors.

 

See : -

 

Prior to using this controller, I used H&M Walkabout controllers, by which I swore! However, I now prefer the LM 317 based regulator.

 

John Isherwood.

[TrevorP1]

On 22/08/2020 at 15:28, TrevorP1 said:

 

>>>> it feels like I've been waiting all summer for a 'weather window' to paint my H57 diner. Like a fool I chose to build a dining car as my first ever brass coach kit and compounded that by choosing crimson and cream livery! No fool like an old(ish) fool!

No sooner said than a ‘weather window’ arrived. Would probably make a professional coach painter cry but there comes a time when there is more to be gained by finishing the job rather than leaving it or further time consuming fiddling. Importantly I’ve learned a lot from this and look forward to doing more. 
 

Hy-Cote rattle cans for the crimson and cream, Railmatch for the rest. Glazing in a couple of days when the paint is properly hardened then time to put an order into Fox for some transfers.

 

[Tom F]

40 minutes ago, Barry O said:

 

@Hawin Dooiey Cwm Prysor could never really repay your outgoings cash wise using dcc.

 

Barry, it was never intended to be just for Cwm Prysor. The Lenz system for Cwm Prysor, was going be used on all my future layouts.

 

The move to DCC was a mistake for me. I look forward to returning to analogue, and with some help from friends on here, to gain a better understanding of wiring.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Hawin Dooiey

[Dylan Sanderson]

 

1 hour ago, Hawin Dooiey said:

I've never been impressed with DCC sound in 4mm. Listening to a full 12-13 coach train clatter through Little Bytham, with the roar of the engine sounded pretty close to the real thing for me.

 

What has surprised me though, has been the response from some other modellers who are DCC, when I've told them I'm giving up DCC. You'd have thought I had two heads!

I know many do enjoy DCC, and have superb results. However, it's not for me....and sadly I've found out the expensive way.

Hi Tom,

 

Feel free to listen to have a play with my Suttons 24 and then tell me what you think about DCC Sound! 

 

DCC Sound is good and is getting better, but it is no where near perfect. So far the Suttons 24 is the best sound loco I've heard, and I'm yet to hear a sound kettle that sounds like a kettle, especially in Pacifics. Hopefully technology will soon allow for better speakers and sound files to allow for proper sound in steam locos.

[Tom F]

12 minutes ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

 

Hi Tom,

 

Feel free to listen to have a play with my Suttons 24 and then tell me what you think about DCC Sound! 

 

DCC Sound is good and is getting better, but it is no where near perfect. So far the Suttons 24 is the best sound loco I've heard, and I'm yet to hear a sound kettle that sounds like a kettle, especially in Pacifics. Hopefully technology will soon allow for better speakers and sound files to allow for proper sound in steam locos.

Thanks Dylan

I've been fortunate to test a Sutton Class 24 previously for another client. I admit the sound was superb.

 

I think it's personal preference, and I've come to accept, DCC isn't for me.

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Notwithstanding that Clive and I often pull each other's leg over this, to say that one is better than the other is like saying that apples are better than oranges.

 

To be fair, anything is better than apples. I cannot stand iphones.

[t-b-g]

32 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

 

That makes "engineering sense" to me, but I suspect the effect of running on one supply and not the other, would be negligible to non-existent to most people.

 

It sounds like self-justification to me, like the sort of people who used gold-plated jack plugs in their hi-fi equipment and tried to convince you they could hear the improvement over standard.  Funny how these people always also seemed to be partially deaf.

 

I am with you on the hi-fi stuff. Much of that is in "emperor's new clothes" territory as far as I am concerned. I once had somebody show off some speakers they had spent lots of money on to me. When I said that I couldn't tell the difference between the new ones and the cheaper ones he replaced, he wasn't impressed. He heard a huge difference and that was all that mattered.

 

For model railways, I could tell from just hearing the sound if certain locos are running on a Grandborough Junction controller or a Buckingham controller, just by the level of noise and by the greater "cogging" of some (but not all) motors on the ECM "Compspeed" compared to a Modelex or even an H & M panel mounted controller. You can switch between the two controllers at Buckingham with a simple flick of a switch and the noise level will alter very obviously. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

 

Hi Tom,

 

Feel free to listen to have a play with my Suttons 24 and then tell me what you think about DCC Sound! 

 

DCC Sound is good and is getting better, but it is no where near perfect. So far the Suttons 24 is the best sound loco I've heard, and I'm yet to hear a sound kettle that sounds like a kettle, especially in Pacifics. Hopefully technology will soon allow for better speakers and sound files to allow for proper sound in steam locos.

Good afternoon Dylan,

 

Though I haven't listen to a Sutton diesel, I'm told the sound effects are superbly-realistic. 

 

I'm sure many of the other diesel sounds are good as well, though has anyone tried to stay sane when sitting demonstrating next to a (loud) diesel depot layout for hours on end? 

 

However, I've yet to hear a DCC sound system which captures the true 'steam sound'. At the moment, Tom Foster is editing moving footage I took on Little Bytham last week. He'll post it on here when it's done (I await in anticipation). The only sounds to be heard are the model trains (and the occasional real one!). We both agreed that the models sounded 'natural'. Tom is going to leave on as much of that original sound as possible (by the way, Tom, are you going to show us the phone-footage you took as well? It looked and sounded excellent). 

 

A fast-moving, steam-hauled express, under easy steam, doesn't go 'chuff-chuff-chuff'; it's a kind of cacophony of continuous sound - a mechanical 'roar'.

 

We'll have to see how it all comes out. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Thanks for all the comments on DCC. They're most-enlightening, but it all comes down (as usual) to personal preference. 

 

And, by the way, there must be many two-headed modellers out there! 

 

I've said it before, but I've been fed up at times at being told by some (not all, by any means) DCC-ites that 'DCC improves running'; as if it were the universal panacea for all model railway running ills.  

Edited August 24, 2020 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Clive Mortimore]

2 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I am with you on the hi-fi stuff. Much of that is in "emperor's new clothes" territory as far as I am concerned. I once had somebody show off some speakers they had spent lots of money on to me. When I said that I couldn't tell the difference between the new ones and the cheaper ones he replaced, he wasn't impressed. He heard a huge difference and that was all that mattered.

 

For model railways, I could tell from just hearing the sound if certain locos are running on a Grandborough Junction controller or a Buckingham controller, just by the level of noise and by the greater "cogging" of some (but not all) motors on the ECM "Compspeed" compared to a Modelex or even an H & M panel mounted controller. You can switch between the two controllers at Buckingham with a simple flick of a switch and the noise level will alter very obviously. 

Hi Tony

 

I am not a hi-fi person and like you say cannot tell the difference when they show me their new system. I normally say to them that The Damned's, "New Rose" sounds better on a stolen record player they get upset.

[Dylan Sanderson]

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Dylan,

 

Though I haven't listen to a Sutton diesel, I'm told the sound effects are superbly-realistic. 

 

I'm sure many of the other diesel sounds are good as well, though has anyone tried to stay sane when sitting demonstrating next to a (loud) diesel depot layout for hours on end? 

 

However, I've yet to hear a DCC sound system which captures the true 'steam sound'. At the moment, Tom Foster is editing moving footage I took on Little Bytham last week. He'll post it on here when it's done (I await in anticipation). The only sounds to be heard are the model trains (and the occasional real one!). We both agreed that the models sounded 'natural'. Tom is going to leave on as much of that original sound as possible (by the way, Tom, are you going to show us the phone-footage you took as well? It looked and sounded excellent). 

 

A fast-moving, steam-hauled express, under easy steam, doesn't go 'chuff-chuff-chuff'; it's a kind of cacophony of continuous sound - a mechanical 'roar'.

 

We'll have to see how it all comes out. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Good afternoon Tony!

 

I couldn't agree more. DCC Sound in large locos working large and fast trains as demonstrated on your layout is simply redundant. However, since my layout is a mear 12x1ft 1960s MPD based on Doncaster, I feel sound may have the potential to be better utilised, since as you'd expect, there'll be lots of low speed chuffs, puffs, whistles etc. 

 

I'm looking forward to seeing the video Tom has filmed on LB.

 

Many thanks,

 

Dylan.

[Tony Wright]

Anyway, as promised last week, all-new pictures of Little Bytham's Thompson Pacifics (the picture files are quite big, so they'll have to be split over two posts). 

 

The solitary A1/1 GREAT NORTHERN, surely one of the most-reviled locos of all time. I built it from a Crownline kit and Ian Rathbone painted it.

 

Reviled or not, for any late-'50s ECML (southern end) depiction it's essential to have. 

 

 

The first A2/3, named after its designer. Another Crownline kit built by me and painted by Ian Rathbone. It has a cast metal boiler (modified SEF A2) and I altered the cab to make it look more like that of an A2/3. 60500 retained its original boiler and double stovepipe chimney until the early-'60s.

 

MONS MEG is another Crownline /Wright/ Rathbone combo. This one has its resin boiler (which I heartily disliked - too much remedial work needed!), and this, too, has the altered cab.

 

60501 is the prototype for the DJH A2/2, built by me and painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

The differences between the boilers on this pair might be noted. 

 

 

The second production DJH A2/2 kit (I also built the first) in the form of New England's 60506, recalling a time when 35A was responsible for providing a loco for the Down 'Flying Scotsman'. Once again, a superb example of Ian Rathbone's painting.

 

More to come.................

 

 

[Tony Wright]

The other LB Thompson Pacifics........................

 

Considering this old girl is now nearing 45 years old, I think she's still (just about) acceptable, especially as everything about it is 'all my own work'. Built from a Jamieson hand-cut kit (which cost me £27.50 in 1975/'76 - what's that today?), it represents 60508, the only A2/1 I ever saw. I had the nameplates especially made as well (by Kings Cross Models - I think they cost a fiver, and I had to cut them out!).

 

 

DANTE was the first production DJH A2/3 kit to be built (I didn't build the prototype - the late John Sneyd did that). Rather cleaner than might be expected of a New England loco, it would be a sin to obliterate Ian Rathbone's fine painting with grime. 

 

She represents one of the class (as all were, eventually) fitted with a Peppercorn boiler. 

 

 

The ever ingenious Graeme King produced SUN STREAM for me, using his resin/etched parts and a Bachmann A2 donor. I detailed it, patch/part-painted, numbered, named and weathered it to produce an A2/3 in typical 50 A condition. 

 

 

A Tyneside-based A2/3 in the form of 60516 (before she went to York). Again, another DJH/Wright/Rathbone combination, this one retains its original boiler and stovepipe double chimney. 

 

I wonder why Thompson's Pacifics seem to be popular (at least in model form)? Most authors have little good to say about them, and it's significant that (apart from one or two examples) they were never shedded at the depots with the most-prestigious work for any length of time. Despite their being newer, the Gresley designs outlived them (indeed, apart from the original Raven A2s, the A2/2s were the first LNER Pacifics to be withdrawn). 

 

As mentioned, I'm sure the forthcoming Hornby examples will sell well.

 

If any others would like to show us their own Thompson Pacifics, please do......................

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Some more Retford shots....................

 

 

My re-gauged Bachmann D11 carries on northwards.

 

Unfortunately, Rick Hunt's wonderful 'Queen's boards' bracket signal has ceased to work.................

 

 

Class A3 60042 SINGAPORE heads the Down afternoon 'Talisman'. 

 

It's shots such as this which illustrate one of Roy Jackson's blind spots. No lamps, and not even lamp brackets.

 

Do the omissions spoil the overall effect? I think so, and so easy to rectify. I'll make it one of my tasks! 

 

 

Lamps or not, it's the broad sweep of Retford which absolutely convinces.

 

A Clas 9F (complete with numberplate, but with no numbers on it - another job!) takes the Down goods avoiding line to the west of the station. Though the signal to control this move has been built, it's still to be installed. 

[thegreenhowards]

On the DCC question, in my experience DCC is much more ‘fussy’ but allows finer control when you get it right. A loco with poor pick ups will be virtually inoperable on DCC - but then they should have been fixed anyway. What DCC does give is super slow speed control on a loco that works well on DC. It also gives more drive ability through momentum and braking control. Adding Stayalive can make the loco even smoother and works very well on shunting layouts. 

 

As for sound, I love it but I accept it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. It’s better for diesels than for steam, but I have some good steamers as well - my YouChoos J50 is probably the best. For a pacific storming round on 13 bogies, I agree there’s no point other than the whistle.

Edited August 24, 2020 by thegreenhowards
Typo

[MJI]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

 

That makes "engineering sense" to me, but I suspect the effect of running on one supply and not the other, would be negligible to non-existent to most people.

 

It sounds like self-justification to me, like the sort of people who used gold-plated jack plugs in their hi-fi equipment and tried to convince you they could hear the improvement over standard.  Funny how these people always also seemed to be partially deaf.

 

Actually partially deaf people require better quality sound, I am slightly hearing impared* and cannot stand a lot of audio compression.

 

* Tinnitus from an infection.

[MJI]

Steam loco sound.

 

The old Triang tender based rubbing strip was as good as a lot of DCC steam sound.

 

I heard a DCC steam in a shop and thought it was junk.

[thegreenhowards]

46 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

The other LB Thompson Pacifics........................

 

Considering this old girl is now nearing 45 years old, I think she's still (just about) acceptable, especially as everything about it is 'all my own work'. Built from a Jamieson hand-cut kit (which cost me £27.50 in 1975/'76 - what's that today?), it represents 60508, the only A2/1 I ever saw. I had the nameplates especially made as well (by Kings Cross Models - I think they cost a fiver, and I had to cut them out!).

 

 

DANTE was the first production DJH A2/3 kit to be built (I didn't build the prototype - the late John Sneyd did that). Rather cleaner than might be expected of a New England loco, it would be a sin to obliterate Ian Rathbone's fine painting with grime. 

 

She represents one of the class (as all were, eventually) fitted with a Peppercorn boiler. 

 

 

The ever ingenious Graeme King produced SUN STREAM for me, using his resin/etched parts and a Bachmann A2 donor. I detailed it, patch/part-painted, numbered, named and weathered it to produce an A2/3 in typical 50 A condition. 

 

 

A Tyneside-based A2/3 in the form of 60516 (before she went to York). Again, another DJH/Wright/Rathbone combination, this one retains its original boiler and stovepipe double chimney. 

 

I wonder why Thompson's Pacifics seem to be popular (at least in model form)? Most authors have little good to say about them, and it's significant that (apart from one or two examples) they were never shedded at the depots with the most-prestigious work for any length of time. Despite their being newer, the Gresley designs outlived them (indeed, apart from the original Raven A2s, the A2/2s were the first LNER Pacifics to be withdrawn). 

 

As mentioned, I'm sure the forthcoming Hornby examples will sell well.

 

If any others would like to show us their own Thompson Pacifics, please do......................

 

 

 

 

I have three Thompson Pacifics, one each of Each A2 variant.

 

We’ll work in number order. The ‘Wolf‘ has been seen on here before as we used it as a guinea pig for Tony to teach me how to build kits properly for which I’m very grateful. She turned out pretty well, but is sadly not.nearly as smooth as Tony’s finest.

 

 

60508 was a Gamston Bank engine which Tony sold to me on one of my visits. A loverly runner and proof that American 

pick ups can work well on DCC.

And finally 60513, Dante was bought from Rails at Warley a couple of years ago. some bits have needed reattaching, but she’s also a good runner.

 

 

Sorry for the lack of ballast - it has now been done.

 

I really need an A1/1 To complete the set. Which kit do you recommend Tony? I expect I will also be tempted by the Hornby offerings to augment the fleet and I have a Graeme King Resin A2/3 conversion in my roundtuit pile.
 

Andy

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by thegreenhowards