Wright writes.....

[Pebbles]

37 minutes ago, jrg1 said:

Perseverance produced a booklet detailing the difference in GCR tenders.

This was included in their D11 kit and I believe compiled by Rod Neep.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, jrg1 said:

Perseverance produced a booklet detailing the difference in GCR tenders.

Good afternoon,

 

I think I have a Perseverance GC tender for sale.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Chuffer Davies]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon,

 

I think I have a Perseverance GC tender for sale.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony,

I’m interested so I’ll mail you if it hasn’t gone yet.

Frank

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Tony,

I’m interested so I’ll mail you if it hasn’t gone yet.

Frank

Good evening Frank,

 

PM sent.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

It could no doubt be added to, but I started a thread documenting some of the variations to look out for on the Robinson 3250 and 4000 gallon tenders:

 

Edit: this view taken from the above thread shows what the rear of your 04/8 should look like:

 

(Robert Gadson Flickr image)

 

A circular filler (almost totally hidden by the tender flare), with the division plate closer to the tank rear, and not a truncated D filler.

 

Simon

 

 

Good evening Simon,

 

Very-revealing, many thanks. 

 

Just to show how I never stop learning................ Nor ever should!

 

 

About 45 years ago, I part scratch-built this O4/8 (employing a K's ROD tender). 

 

In all that time, with it having run at over 100 shows on Fordley Park, Leighford, Stoke Summit and Charwelton, and having appeared in the press, nobody has ever pointed out the error on the tender's rear top. Ignorance was bliss.

 

As an aside, for those who paint models of Gorton-shopped loco tenders representing BR days, the great Manchester works never painted the tender tops and rear coal division plates black. They were left in red primer.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[65179]

Yes, the imperfect but complete model is worth far more than a perfect one in our imagination!

 

Simon

[dibateg]

I remember the BEC J11's, didn't they go on a Triang Jinty chassis? I 'm sure I had two and the adventurous modellers would replace the Triang wheels with Romfords, but the axles needed bushes. Later on I sold those and built two Little Engines J11's and built them compensated, as was the trend at the time. Tony didn't like those! On reflection, the compensation was not much of an advantage. I can't remember who I sold them to..

I have an unfinished 7mm scale J11 - a Gladiator kit. I have a whole load of stock I must finish and weather when the climate improves and I can use the spray shop again.. GC tenders are quite a minefield, this one ahs the pick up gear removed , but with the tools boxes still in place - low rear division plate..

 

 

Regards

Tony

Edited January 25 by dibateg
changing from incoherent to slightly less incoherent...

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, dibateg said:

I remember the BEC J11's, didn't they go on a Triang Jinty chassis? I 'm sure I had two and the adventurous modellers would replace the Triang wheels with Romfords, but the axles needed bushes. Later on I sold those and built two Little Engines J11's and built them compensated, as was the trend at the time. Tony didn't like those! On reflection, the compensation was not much of an advantage. I can't remember who I sold them to..

I have an unfinished 7mm scale J11 - a Gladiator kit. I have a whole load of stock I must finish and weather when the climate improves and I can use the spray shop again.. GC tenders are quite a minefield, this one ahs the pick up gear removed , but with the tools boxes still in place - low rear division plate..

 

 

Regards

Tony

Good morning Tony,

 

That's just what I did with my BEC J11 - bushed the Tri-ang Jinty frames, gearwheel and fitted Romfords, instantly became a 'scale' modeller! No matter that (50 years ago, and in complete ignorance), modelling it in BR days I put together everything which came with the kit - a GC chimney and dome, and a tender with open coal rails. Where it is now, I have no idea, other than I hope it's buried somewhere!

 

I believe you sold your Little Engines J11s to Richard Irven, who cherishes them.

 

GC tenders? Wow, what a minefield. A few prototype examples (please, all, observe copyright restrictions on these images)..........

 

 

A D10, still with the ship's wheel.

 

 

A D11, still with the ship's wheel (just visible). I wonder if BUTLER HENDERSON still has its pick-up gear? Unlikely?

 

Would we tolerate our models with the loco and tender being so out of true in the vertical? Or is it dodgy Darnall track?

 

 

A D49 with a tender running on GC frames but with a rebuilt tank. Anyone modelled this type?

 

 

No ship's wheel on this J11.

 

 

Just a shovel here where the wheel used to be.

 

 

No wheel, and, interestingly, no beading on the tender's coping. 

 

 

This O4/1 would have originally had the gear, but not now.

 

 

This O4/3 would never have had it.

 

 

But its tender retains the original GC filler arrangement. 

 

 

No pick-up gear on this O4/7.

 

I wonder, did the few O4/7s rebuilt from O4/1s retain their pick-up gear to begin with?

 

 

As far as I know, no O4/8 had pick-up gear, even those rebuilt from O4/1s. 

 

The O4/8 its standing with has the 'revised' rear end to its tender top.

 

I once 'coaled' a model loco with some big lumps, some as big as a (scale) man's torso. I was told by one observer that they were far too big. Really?

 

Shouldn't the loco's vertical cab handrails and the tender's vertical handrails be parallel?

 

Who'd be a modeller?!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Another O4/3. Tender to left still with original GC filler (almost buried in coal).

Edited January 25 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Michael Edge]

I think the lack of beading on the coal raves is the result of open rails plated on the outside.

[billbedford]

32 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I think the lack of beading on the coal raves is the result of open rails plated on the outside.

 

That tender is a 3250-gallon one. 

[65179]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

I think the lack of beading on the coal raves is the result of open rails plated on the outside.

 

Yes, broadly speaking as I understand it the coalrail tenders plated in GC days received plain plating on the outside of the coalrails. Those plated in LNER days received the plating on the inside of the coalrails.

 

I can't find an embeddable image of the real thing, but here's two of my tenders: one a model of one built with open coalrails (and subsequently plated on the inside); and the other representing a tender built with solid coalguards from new:

 

Beading generally indicates a tender built with solid coalguards.

 

Simon

Edited January 25 by 65179

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Tony,

 

That's just what I did with my BEC J11 - bushed the Tri-ang Jinty frames, gearwheel and fitted Romfords, instantly became a 'scale' modeller! No matter that (50 years ago, and in complete ignorance), modelling it in BR days I put together everything which came with the kit - a GC chimney and dome, and a tender with open coal rails. Where it is now, I have no idea, other than I hope it's buried somewhere!

 

I believe you sold your Little Engines J11s to Richard Irven, who cherishes them.

 

GC tenders? Wow, what a minefield. A few prototype examples (please, all, observe copyright restrictions on these images)..........

 

 

A D10, still with the ship's wheel.

 

 

A D11, still with the ship's wheel (just visible). I wonder if BUTLER HENDERSON still has its pick-up gear? Unlikely?

 

Would we tolerate our models with the loco and tender being so out of true in the vertical? Or is it dodgy Darnall track?

 

 

A D49 with a tender running on GC frames but with a rebuilt tank. Anyone modelled this type?

 

 

No ship's wheel on this J11.

 

 

Just a shovel here where the wheel used to be.

 

 

No wheel, and, interestingly, no beading on the tender's coping. 

 

 

This O4/1 would have originally had the gear, but not now.

 

 

This O4/3 would never have had it.

 

 

But its tender retains the original GC filler arrangement. 

 

 

No pick-up gear on this O4/7.

 

I wonder, did the few O4/7s rebuilt from O4/1s retain their pick-up gear to begin with?

 

 

As far as I know, no O4/8 had pick-up gear, even those rebuilt from O4/1s. 

 

The O4/8 its standing with has the 'revised' rear end to its tender top.

 

I once 'coaled' a model loco with some big lumps, some as big as a (scale) man's torso. I was told by one observer that they were far too big. Really?

 

Shouldn't the loco's vertical cab handrails and the tender's vertical handrails be parallel?

 

Who'd be a modeller?!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Another O4/3. Tender to left still with original GC filler (almost buried in coal).

 

Does anyone else think of a well known motoring journalist/presenter when they see pictures of Butler Henderson (they are related)

[MJI]

Oh well learning time ahead, bought a kit from Hattons and found lumps of white metal in the box, chassis and boiler are brass but cab is white metal.

 

Now unlike a LOT of modellers I am not scared of etched brass as it will not melt at the sight of a soldering iron.

 

Will not start it yet as still building the LMS equivalent, but there may be epoxy glue ahead. After some solder tacking.

[Woodcock29]

Here's a rebuild of a Bachmann O4 4000 gallon tender body into a 3250 gallon tender for a J11. I used etched Millholme coal rails from the spares draw and added thin plastic card for the outside plating. The height of the body was reduced by 1.5-2mm at the base above the sole plates to convert it from a 4000 gallon to 3250 gallon. Note I think the hinges and handles on the boxes over the water pick up gear next to the rear dividing coal plate should actually be reversed now. I copied what Bachmann did on its J11 LNER 4000 gallon tender in respect to the position of those - might have to change those around! The resin water filler/pickup covering boxes are by Graeme King. The 'ships wheel' on the finished model below is the lost wax Gibson casting but will be replaced at some stage with Mike Edge's corect etched 6 spoke wheel that I have in stock.

 

 

and the finished model (seen before on WW).

 

Andrew

 

[Peter Eaton]

Hello,

The ''ships wheel'' what am I looking for in the photos please?

Always ready to learn / see something new.

My thoughts are a hand brake wheel on the tender.

Thanks,

Peter

Edited January 25 by Peter Eaton

[65179]

7 minutes ago, Peter Eaton said:

Hello,

The ''ships wheel'' what an I looks for in the photos please?

Always ready to learn / see something new.

My thoughts are a hand brake wheel on the tender.

Thanks,

Peter

 

Look at the tender front just above the sidesheet extension in Tony's image of the last D10 62653 above. The ship's wheel is visible. The wheel was used to lower and raise the water scoop rather than something looking like a brake standard as used on many other company's locos.

 

It's also visible on Woodcock29's J11 tender.

 

Simon

 

Edited January 25 by 65179

[t-b-g]

 

 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Tony,

 

That's just what I did with my BEC J11 - bushed the Tri-ang Jinty frames, gearwheel and fitted Romfords, instantly became a 'scale' modeller! No matter that (50 years ago, and in complete ignorance), modelling it in BR days I put together everything which came with the kit - a GC chimney and dome, and a tender with open coal rails. Where it is now, I have no idea, other than I hope it's buried somewhere!

 

I believe you sold your Little Engines J11s to Richard Irven, who cherishes them.

 

GC tenders? Wow, what a minefield. A few prototype examples (please, all, observe copyright restrictions on these images)..........

 

 

A D10, still with the ship's wheel.

 

 

A D11, still with the ship's wheel (just visible). I wonder if BUTLER HENDERSON still has its pick-up gear? Unlikely?

 

Would we tolerate our models with the loco and tender being so out of true in the vertical? Or is it dodgy Darnall track?

 

 

A D49 with a tender running on GC frames but with a rebuilt tank. Anyone modelled this type?

 

 

No ship's wheel on this J11.

 

 

Just a shovel here where the wheel used to be.

 

 

No wheel, and, interestingly, no beading on the tender's coping. 

 

 

This O4/1 would have originally had the gear, but not now.

 

 

This O4/3 would never have had it.

 

 

But its tender retains the original GC filler arrangement. 

 

 

No pick-up gear on this O4/7.

 

I wonder, did the few O4/7s rebuilt from O4/1s retain their pick-up gear to begin with?

 

 

As far as I know, no O4/8 had pick-up gear, even those rebuilt from O4/1s. 

 

The O4/8 its standing with has the 'revised' rear end to its tender top.

 

I once 'coaled' a model loco with some big lumps, some as big as a (scale) man's torso. I was told by one observer that they were far too big. Really?

 

Shouldn't the loco's vertical cab handrails and the tender's vertical handrails be parallel?

 

Who'd be a modeller?!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Another O4/3. Tender to left still with original GC filler (almost buried in coal).

 

Does Butler Henderson have its water pick up gear? Yes!

 

 

You can also clearly see the 13 spoke wheel.

 

The tender on 63771 is not, I believe, its original one. As an ex ROD loco, it would have had a simple round filler cap rather than the D shaped box. The low rear coal plate and the D shaped box make this a GCR rather than an ROD tender.

 

The simple D shape, without the small cut out in the side and without the asymmetrical box on the RH side for the cross shaft on the scoop gear was what was put on some GCR tenders built without a water scoop.

 

Others (such as the self trimmers on the D11/2s) were built with the full set of boxes and looked like a scoop fitted tender other than the wheel and the scoop itself.

 

It is indeed a minefield and it is a brave person who will say categorically that a particular combination of features never existed!

 

[t-b-g]

14 minutes ago, Woodcock29 said:

Here's a rebuild of a Bachmann O4 4000 gallon tender body into a 3250 gallon tender for a J11. I used etched Millholme coal rails from the spares draw and added thin plastic card for the outside plating. The height of the body was reduced by 1.5-2mm at the base above the sole plates to convert it from a 4000 gallon to 3250 gallon. Note I think the hinges and handles on the boxes over the water pick up gear next to the rear dividing coal plate should actually be reversed now. I copied what Bachmann did on its J11 LNER 4000 gallon tender in respect to the position of those - might have to change those around! The resin water filler/pickup covering boxes are by Graeme King. The 'ships wheel' on the finished model below is the lost wax Gibson casting but will be replaced at some stage with Mike Edge's corect etched 6 spoke wheel that I have in stock.

 

 

and the finished model (seen before on WW).

 

Andrew

 

 

Very nice!

 

It is good to see somebody going the "extra mile" to get these details correct.

 

This is what the hinges and handles look like, at least on one example:

 

 

[30368]

 

I have a G-Train GCR 9Q/LNER B7 kit to build so many thanks to all who have taken the trouble to post all these images of GCR "Standard" tenders. A fair bit of variation in the LNER B7 4-6-0 too. Modeller beware!

Despite the variations and possible pit falls, I am looking forward to the build, it will join my Judith Edge kit B9.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

[t-b-g]

33 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

I have a G-Train GCR 9Q/LNER B7 kit to build so many thanks to all who have taken the trouble to post all these images of GCR "Standard" tenders. A fair bit of variation in the LNER B7 4-6-0 too. Modeller beware!

Despite the variations and possible pit falls, I am looking forward to the build, it will join my Judith Edge kit B9.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

 

I just love a B7! There is an air of brute force about them. I have one that the late Roy Jackson almost completed to finish off in EM, a set of G Trains etches for another EM model, plus a Gladiator Models kit in 7mm. One day.................

[65179]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

 

Does Butler Henderson have its water pick up gear? Yes!

 

 

You can also clearly see the 13 spoke wheel.

 

The tender on 63771 is not, I believe, its original one. As an ex ROD loco, it would have had a simple round filler cap rather than the D shaped box. The low rear coal plate and the D shaped box make this a GCR rather than an ROD tender.

 

The simple D shape, without the small cut out in the side and without the asymmetrical box on the RH side for the cross shaft on the scoop gear was what was put on some GCR tenders built without a water scoop.

 

Others (such as the self trimmers on the D11/2s) were built with the full set of boxes and looked like a scoop fitted tender other than the wheel and the scoop itself.

 

It is indeed a minefield and it is a brave person who will say categorically that a particular combination of features never existed!

 

 

Looking at the construction of that ship's wheel, it does make you wonder just what the firemen at Northwich and Trafford Park sheds did to Sir Edward Fraser's  (see remains of ship's wheel missing several handles on 62653 in Tony's post!

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

GC tenders? Wow, what a minefield. A few prototype examples (please, all, observe copyright restrictions on these images)..........

 

 

A D10, still with the ship's wheel.

 

 

Simon

Edited January 25 by 65179

[65179]

5 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I just love a B7! There is an air of brute force about them. I have one that the late Roy Jackson almost completed to finish off in EM, a set of G Trains etches for another EM model, plus a Gladiator Models kit in 7mm. One day.................

 

That sounds like a challenge to have 7, 4 and 2 mm models of B7s displayed together as you managed with Valour!

 

Simon

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

 

Does Butler Henderson have its water pick up gear? Yes!

 

 

You can also clearly see the 13 spoke wheel.

 

The tender on 63771 is not, I believe, its original one. As an ex ROD loco, it would have had a simple round filler cap rather than the D shaped box. The low rear coal plate and the D shaped box make this a GCR rather than an ROD tender.

 

The simple D shape, without the small cut out in the side and without the asymmetrical box on the RH side for the cross shaft on the scoop gear was what was put on some GCR tenders built without a water scoop.

 

Others (such as the self trimmers on the D11/2s) were built with the full set of boxes and looked like a scoop fitted tender other than the wheel and the scoop itself.

 

It is indeed a minefield and it is a brave person who will say categorically that a particular combination of features never existed!

 

Thanks Tony,

 

I wonder when 62660's water scoop was last used. Apart from at Charwelton, where are there any other water troughs on the GC? Were there any over Woodhead? I don't think there were any on the CLC. I suppose, had she worked from, say, Retford to Doncaster, she might have dipped at Scrooby; who knows?

 

Whenever I see close-up, prototype detail, I'm always surprised at how 'rough' everything is. Take that seam line between the front bulkhead and the tender side - just a simple weld, not taken back with a linisher at all. When I solder model seams like that, it's (if possible) always from the inside, with the external joint carefully cleaned up afterwards. 

 

When WMRC exhibited Stoke Summit at Didcot during the new century celebrations, the staff their kindly let us drive their (real) locos in exchange for their driving our (model) ones. I drove a pannier (naturally, under close supervision), taking photographs before and after. I was astonished at how how rough the welding was underneath the bunker steps - one even had part of a welding rod sticking out! Were I to attempt to replicate that in model form, it would be dismissed as poor soldering - quite rightly. 

 

Another thing I asked about was the number of rivets on the footplate (am I that 'sad'?). 'Dunno' was the answer. 'We just put a chalk line on the platework and drill holes where we think necessary'. 'But they aren't all in a dead straight line' said I. 'So?'..........

 

Please don't think I'm knocking the fantastic engineering work undertaken on preserved lines; it's an incredible achievement. 

 

Looking at many of the prototype pictures on here of late, some of our models (not mine) are probably rounder/squarer/straighter better-formed/with crisper joints than the real thing.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Apart from at Charwelton, where are there any other water troughs on the GC?

 

There was another between Killamarsh and Eckington.  It had limited use as the water came from a canal and tended to be a bit muddy. 

[30368]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

There is an air of brute force about them.

 

Yes agree as there are for many of Mr Robinson's locomotives.

 

It is rather fun to consider what might have happened if John Robinson decided to be the first LNER CM&EE and not defer to the younger Mr Gresley! A Robinson pacific, now there is a thought!! Did he not consider a 2-10-0 at one stage?

 

Kind regards,

 

30368