Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

G'day Gents

 

Deltic's, noisy, smelly, and uncomfortable, but, boy couldn't they move, I signed on one night at KX, to be told by the foreman, 'Go with Driver ****, so off we went to 'Donny' on the cushions, waited there for ages, before a Deltic on a 'sleeper' rocked up, we had to have a pilot as we had to go via Lincoln, so after a long tedious trip to Peterborough, standing in the Deltic's cab nose well, I heard the driver say to me 'You take her', , so slipping into the drivers seat, we waited to get 'right away', as we got the whistle, the drivers said to me '###### the speed limits, we're already two hours late' the controller was open wide just after leaving P/borough, the speedo said a 105mph by the time we got to Connington, we kept that up mile after mile, but had to slow down for engineering work between Sandy and Hitchin, then back up to top speed again, made up about 20 mins between P/borough and KX, (sleeper trains are/were limited to 90mph)

 

manna (AKA Terry)  

My erstwhile Haymarket colleagues would usually work the Big Coast or the Wee Coast to Newcastle with the front engine shut down. They could still make time.

[Red Devil]

Do you know anything of the B1's origins?

 

Bits of it appear to be Jamieson (the low front and large cut-out to the tender, for instance), but not the valve gear or smokebox door.  

No, unfortunately nothing at all. 

[96701]

Phil,

 

Neither did the King which Geoff had, which also had the same Maxon/gearbox arrangement. It seemed a very good drive arrangement, but at over twice the price of equivalents (not Portescaps), I wonder how viable it really would have been. 

 

I think the whine is a phenomenon of the later Portescaps. When they were first introduced, they were almost silent but more recent ones make a familiar (and very annoying to me) whine as they run. I gave up using them because of that, though they seem to command 'ridiculous' prices if some e-Bay reports are to be believed. My choice these days for loco drives is DJH (pre-built), Comet, Markits and High Level. The three which have to be built need great care in assembly, though when built properly they are very smooth and silent. Like earlier Portescaps in the former case, but completely unlike the later ones in the latter.  

Ah, yes but the MGB1 with Maxon motor is very powerful. I will never forget the look on Geoff's face when he stopped Duke of Gloucester on his 1:100 gradient with eight coaches on and it set off without slipping, and that is in a resin bodied loco.

[sandra]

Tony, thank you for posting the photographs you took of the models I brought with me on my visit. I thoroughly enjoyed the day at Little Bytham and I wish to thank both you and Mo for your very kind hospitality and for allowing me to visit.

As always the railway ran faultlessly and the only problems were due to the operators, particularly myself. I particularly liked the ground signals which actually work and make operating the railway even more realistic.

As for the models I brought with me, they were all built a long time ago apart from the Stanier 2-6-0 whose provenance I do not know. The coal tank is what you got if you just built a K's kit without adding any further detail. Obviously if I was building such a kit now I would hope to make a much better job of it and add a lot more detail. I thought the locomotive was of interest because it does run reasonably well inspite of the fact that it has a K's chassis. motor, gears and wheels.

 

The ancient GWR loco with outside frames is actually a model of a 322 class. These were introduced in 1864 and ordered from Beyer Peacock by Daniel Gooch. The last one survived until 1934. The model is made from a K's kit but with Romford wheels and DS10 motor and it is a model of number 355 which I understand was withdrawn from Shrewsbury shed in 1931. 

 

The Dukedog was also built from a K's kit with Romford wheels and DS10 motor. However the slip coach was not built from a Comet kit but from a range of kits at one time supplied by a model shop in West Wickham, Kent. I believe the range may still be available under the Phoenix name. The kit consisted of aluminium sides and roof together with cast white metal ends and cast white metal bogies.

 

Tony, I wish again to thank you for allowing me to visit and if you are ever kind enough to invite me again I will try and complete the DJH Claughton 4-6-0 I am presently building so that I can bring it with me.

 

Sandra

[Theakerr]

Tried the Comet solution.  Very marginal improvement and that was all. 

[Class O]

The Stanier mogul looks like a Millholme one ?

[t-b-g]

400 pages and 10,000 posts and still going strong (and showing some fine model making).

 

Deserves a "congratulations".

 

Tony G

[copleyhill007]

Agreed. Well done Tony - absolutely brilliant.

 

Dave W

[LNER4479]

Yep - congrats on 10,000+ posts. Easily one of the most readable threads on RMWeb.

 

Ref conversation on previous page (it all flies past so quickly!), landmark work in understanding forces locos imparted on the track (and bridges in particular) was the 1928 Bridge Stress Committee report. It was a notable piece of whole railway co-operation with engineers from the different companies contributing. A fascinating read if you can find a copy, with the diagrammatic pictures of the various different bridges and locomotive types involved in the measurement work.

 

Naturally the then relatively new Gresley A1's came out as one of the best performing locos(!); some of the pre-grouping 0-8-0 goods locos less so...

[jamie92208]

Yep - congrats on 10,000+ posts. Easily one of the most readable threads on RMWeb.

 

Ref conversation on previous page (it all flies past so quickly!), landmark work in understanding forces locos imparted on the track (and bridges in particular) was the 1928 Bridge Stress Committee report. It was a notable piece of whole railway co-operation with engineers from the different companies contributing. A fascinating read if you can find a copy, with the diagrammatic pictures of the various different bridges and locomotive types involved in the measurement work.

 

Naturally the then relatively new Gresley A1's came out as one of the best performing locos(!); some of the --0 goods locos less so...

 

There is a good write up about it in O S Nock's Steam Railways in Retrospect. ​This has pictures of the various bridges that they tested. He also describes the experience of seeing 4 King's, being used in pairs to test new bridges on the line south of Birmingham after quadrupling.  The last test was done at 60 mph with just half a mile for them to accelerate and then cross the bridge with all the locos in line.  What a sight and sound that must have been.

 

Jamie

 

edited to get the correct number of locos after re reading the chapter.

Edited May 17, 2016 by jamie92208

[Tony Wright]

Tony, thank you for posting the photographs you took of the models I brought with me on my visit. I thoroughly enjoyed the day at Little Bytham and I wish to thank both you and Mo for your very kind hospitality and for allowing me to visit.

 

As always the railway ran faultlessly and the only problems were due to the operators, particularly myself. I particularly liked the ground signals which actually work and make operating the railway even more realistic.

 

As for the models I brought with me, they were all built a long time ago apart from the Stanier 2-6-0 whose provenance I do not know. The coal tank is what you got if you just built a K's kit without adding any further detail. Obviously if I was building such a kit now I would hope to make a much better job of it and add a lot more detail. I thought the locomotive was of interest because it does run reasonably well inspite of the fact that it has a K's chassis. motor, gears and wheels.

 

The ancient GWR loco with outside frames is actually a model of a 322 class. These were introduced in 1864 and ordered from Beyer Peacock by Daniel Gooch. The last one survived until 1934. The model is made from a K's kit but with Romford wheels and DS10 motor and it is a model of number 355 which I understand was withdrawn from Shrewsbury shed in 1931. 

 

The Dukedog was also built from a K's kit with Romford wheels and DS10 motor. However the slip coach was not built from a Comet kit but from a range of kits at one time supplied by a model shop in West Wickham, Kent. I believe the range may still be available under the Phoenix name. The kit consisted of aluminium sides and roof together with cast white metal ends and cast white metal bogies.

 

Tony, I wish again to thank you for allowing me to visit and if you are ever kind enough to invite me again I will try and complete the DJH Claughton 4-6-0 I am presently building so that I can bring it with me.

 

Sandra

Thanks Sandra,

 

The invitation to re-visit is always open, as it is to all those who've visited in the past. 

 

I thought you ran the railway very well - it was me who was the poor operator. As I said to you on the day, I just couldn't invite dear friends if most of the time I was apologising for the poor running of the railway, caused by the railway itself. I doubt if they'd come if that were the case. I can live with my own incompetence at operation (I have no alternative), but I couldn't stand any running faults on the railway. 

 

In the past, I've been invited to see some model railways (one or two well known) and spent much of my time trying to fix them - adjusting track, tweaking locos and identifying where there were short circuits. What would you (or any of my other splendid visitors) think if I asked you to fix things for me on my model railway when you visited? Not much, I'll warrant. True, helping friends is what one should do, but it can become a bit trying when a model railway doesn't work properly. That said, I love fixing individual models which don't work quite as well as they might, especially when the builder brings them (not that yours needed fixing, I hasten to add). It might be that the model, say a loco, is 'almost there', and just a little time spent tweaking and adjusting it turns it into a super runner. It's a mutually good feeling then.

 

Larry Goddard informed me that the Slip Coach must have been built from a BSL/Phoenix kit. Thanks Larry. My apologies for not getting that right.

 

You mention the ground signals, Roy Vinter's wonderful work. In time (given the collective age of our knees as over 215 years! - there are three of us installing them!), all of them will work. They really add to the operation of the railway.

 

Given the publication deadlines I'm working to, and the fact that I'm not up to much as an architectural modeller, by the time of your next visit, the station platform buildings should be in place.

 

 

Yesterday, I popped up to York to photograph the work in progress, undertaken by Bob Dawson and his grandson, Scott. In this regard, I admit to becoming a chequebook modeller. I realise my limitations (I hope), both in ability and time, and Bob's and Scott's work is outstanding. This is the progress so far with regard to the Up buildings.

 

 

In fairness, I'm not using the chequebook as my principal modelling tool. By way of horse-trading, I'm taking pictures for Bob's portfolio. This is a superb 7mm goods shed he's made for a client of his in S. Wales.   

[Tony Wright]

There is a fascinating parallel thread on here discussing the evolution of the hobby and how it affects what folk model. 

 

I've commented on it, and it set me thinking on why I've chosen to build (with loads of help) a model of Little Bytham as it was getting on for 60 years ago. 

 

 

In the '50s, it looked like this; just crying out to be modelled.

 

 

By 1962, the station had been demolished for three years, but it still had plenty of interest for model-making.

 

 

By 2009, what is there left of interest to model? The pile of bricks shows where the goods shed stood, and the whole Up side site is now occupied by houses. 

 

 

[96701]

There is a fascinating parallel thread on here discussing the evolution of the hobby and how it affects what folk model. 

 

I've commented on it, and it set me thinking on why I've chosen to build (with loads of help) a model of Little Bytham as it was getting on for 60 years ago. 

 

Bytham 02 Prototype.jpg

 

In the '50s, it looked like this; just crying out to be modelled.

 

60067 on Up express.jpg

 

By 1962, the station had been demolished for three years, but it still had plenty of interest for model-making.

 

60007 28 11 09 01.jpg

 

By 2009, what is there left of interest to model? The pile of bricks shows where the goods shed stood, and the whole Up side site is now occupied by houses. 

Has the standby generator room (brick building with flat roof in 2009 shot) gone as well?

[Clive Mortimore]

There is a fascinating parallel thread on here discussing the evolution of the hobby and how it affects what folk model. 

 

I've commented on it, and it set me thinking on why I've chosen to build (with loads of help) a model of Little Bytham as it was getting on for 60 years ago. 

 

Bytham 02 Prototype.jpg

 

In the '50s, it looked like this; just crying out to be modelled.

 

60067 on Up express.jpg

 

By 1962, the station had been demolished for three years, but it still had plenty of interest for model-making.

 

60007 28 11 09 01.jpg

 

By 2009, what is there left of interest to model? The pile of bricks shows where the goods shed stood, and the whole Up side site is now occupied by houses. 

Hi Tony

 

Looking at the OLE in the 2009 photo, the power feed looks worth modelling.

 

All three photos have something interesting in them, we all have our own ideas about what is good to model. 

[Tony Wright]

Has the standby generator room (brick building with flat roof in 2009 shot) gone as well?

Phil,

 

I think so, though I've not looked from the bridge recently. Because of the new houses, any view from Station Road is now obscured. 

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony

 

Looking at the OLE in the 2009 photo, the power feed looks worth modelling.

 

All three photos have something interesting in them, we all have our own ideas about what is good to model. 

Clive,

 

I agree, but the older shots show a much more varied infrastructure. Not only that, none of those lovely limestone outcrops is visible today - just almost unrestricted foliage. 

 

On the most interesting parallel thread, someone posted he thought that the likes of Pendolinos were just as interesting as an A4 and its train. Though that might be the case to some, when I last stood on Crewe Station, I heard not one juvenile voice cry out 'Pendolino!', when one appeared. Contrast that to my trainspotting time at Crewe when countless young voices would shout out in unison 'Semi!' when a Stanier 'Big-Un' came into view. Or, when last at Retford, not a squeak was heard as a Class 91 shot through. Nearly 60 years ago now, when an A4 appeared, 'Streak!' was shouted at the loudest level by myriads of small boys.

 

Though today's railways are much more efficient, cleaner and certainly faster than those of my youth (or even in my late teens, 20s and 30s when I was photographing Deltics), to me, they are nowhere near as interesting as they once were. It seems they're also of little interest to today's youth (the railway modellers of the future?) 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Tony Wright

[t-b-g]

It used to be said that you should be able to tell the area of the country that a layout is set in (and also possibly the period) without a train in sight.

 

Looking at those three pictures, the signals and buildings in the first two pictures shout "LNER Main line" to me.

 

Take away the train in the third photo and it could be anywhere. No doubt somebody will tell me that the overhead equipment has features that identify it as ECML but that is clutching at straws.

 

I lost any interest I had in real railways the day the last Deltic was withdrawn.

 

I visited a couple of old trainspotting favourite haunts recently. If they had looked like they do now in the 1970s, including the procession of garish and awful liveries and the only interest in the operation being that some trains stop and some don't, I would never have become a lifelong railway and model railway enthusiast.

 

I know that some people, for some reason that I genuinely cannot grasp, actually like modern railways and think that glass, metal and concrete boxes make attractive station buildings. Or that railways that have bus shelters instead of station buildings are actually an improvement on what went before. Or that a layout where "train arrives" "train leaves" is interesting to operate. I would never dream of telling anybody that they shouldn't like or model modern railways. But I can understand how they don't draw youngsters into a lifelong interest like the railways of 40 plus years ago did to me.

 

Tomorrow evening I shall spend a few hours with a friend (or maybe two) operating a layout set in 1907, which has trains that add and detach vehicles, are re-marshalled, change locos and have wagons shunted to various destinations. Even a slip coach (when it works). Lovely stuff!

 

Tony G. 

[The Stationmaster]

It used to be said that you should be able to tell the area of the country that a layout is set in (and also possibly the period) without a train in sight.

 

Looking at those three pictures, the signals and buildings in the first two pictures shout "LNER Main line" to me.

 

Take away the train in the third photo and it could be anywhere. No doubt somebody will tell me that the overhead equipment has features that identify it as ECML but that is clutching at straws.

 

I lost any interest I had in real railways the day the last Deltic was withdrawn.

 

I visited a couple of old trainspotting favourite haunts recently. If they had looked like they do now in the 1970s, including the procession of garish and awful liveries and the only interest in the operation being that some trains stop and some don't, I would never have become a lifelong railway and model railway enthusiast.

 

I know that some people, for some reason that I genuinely cannot grasp, actually like modern railways and think that glass, metal and concrete boxes make attractive station buildings. Or that railways that have bus shelters instead of station buildings are actually an improvement on what went before. Or that a layout where "train arrives" "train leaves" is interesting to operate. I would never dream of telling anybody that they shouldn't like or model modern railways. But I can understand how they don't draw youngsters into a lifelong interest like the railways of 40 plus years ago did to me.

 

Tomorrow evening I shall spend a few hours with a friend (or maybe two) operating a layout set in 1907, which has trains that add and detach vehicles, are re-marshalled, change locos and have wagons shunted to various destinations. Even a slip coach (when it works). Lovely stuff!

 

Tony G. 

 

Actually the third photo is pretty easy to place in terms of route and being able to roughly narrow it down.  The signal and relay room (or whatever it is) immediately proclaim it as ECML Kings Cross , Peterborough, or Doncaster resignalling schemes while the ohle also shouts out ECML.  So getting it as ECML is easy if you know what you're looking at.  Narrowing down to a location is more difficult but it is obviously a quadruple track section which helps get it down to various possibilities.  Beyond that it all depends on how well you know the route and only those who do know it will be able to localise it any further but at least you can work out which route it is and which likely sections of that route it might be.

 

The problems really come with later modernisation where much greater (and finally near universal) standardisation of signal structures and numbering methods make identification by signals alone increasingly difficult while ohle is going the same way.  However having said all that it is absolutely true that all the operational interest generated by the presence of a station with goods facilities has gone while at the same time the trains have become incredibly uniform, notwithstanding ever changing coats of many colours.

[t-b-g]

Actually the third photo is pretty easy to place in terms of route and being able to roughly narrow it down.  The signal and relay room (or whatever it is) immediately proclaim it as ECML Kings Cross , Peterborough, or Doncaster resignalling schemes while the ohle also shouts out ECML.  So getting it as ECML is easy if you know what you're looking at.  Narrowing down to a location is more difficult but it is obviously a quadruple track section which helps get it down to various possibilities.  Beyond that it all depends on how well you know the route and only those who do know it will be able to localise it any further but at least you can work out which route it is and which likely sections of that route it might be.

 

The problems really come with later modernisation where much greater (and finally near universal) standardisation of signal structures and numbering methods make identification by signals alone increasingly difficult while ohle is going the same way.  However having said all that it is absolutely true that all the operational interest generated by the presence of a station with goods facilities has gone while at the same time the trains have become incredibly uniform, notwithstanding ever changing coats of many colours.

 

I guessed that somebody with the right knowledge would be able say how to pin it down. I suppose, in a way, it is rather like a modern enthusiast not being able to pick the difference between a GCR or a GWR lower quadrant signal.

 

If I was to sum up how I see the difference between the railways of old and the present day it is that in times long gone, the designers and engineers were not just interested in function and cost. They were artists as well as engineers. There were a tiny number of inelegant, awkward looking locos, often from people experimenting with something new or different. Most were elegant and balanced designs that bore a family resemblance to other locos on the line and created a sense of the company having an identity that was distinct.

 

Liveries, on the whole, were attractive, refined and identified the owning company. Some liveries were so much associated with a particular company that the locos didn't often carry further identification other than tiny lettering on a cast plate or coat of arms (such as the LNWR).

 

Modern liveries, no doubt after the involvement of expensive business image consultants often look to me as if they have been designed by children in a school playground. Funnily enough, the best modern trains I have seen have been the ones painted in liveries that hark back to better times. When my father in law saw the first ECML train in silver a few years ago he asked me if it was painted up to look like the pre war streamliners that he saw. Quite a few years ago I saw some modern DMUs at Carlisle painted up in what was damn near "blood and custard" and they looked superb. Nowadays it is more a case of adding as many bright stripes at funny angles and having colours clashing as much as possible.

 

Going back to Tony's 3 photos of the scene, I could even dare to suggest that if you went back further and the locos were either LNER pre-war or even GNR, with a Single on a rake of 6 wheelers or an Atlantic on a rake of clerestory 12 wheelers, then that would make it even more attractive to some of us!

 

edited for spelling error

Edited May 17, 2016 by t-b-g

[Headstock]

Personally, I would love to see Little Bytham set in the 1940's. If I start soldering straight after dinner, I should have the stock ready in about thirty years.

[Tony Wright]

Personally, I would love to see Little Bytham set in the 1940's. If I start soldering straight after dinner, I should have the stock ready in about thirty years.

Andrew,

 

What part of the 1940s? By 1944 every loco would probably be black (and/or filthy) and the carriages plain brown. The late '40s, with BR just coming into being would be brighter. Who knows (though I never went to LB as a child), I could include a model of me as a toddler/small boy. 

 

If LB were to regress to the streamliner years, then some somersault signals would be needed. 

 

Tony Gee mentioned Deltics. Going through the various pictures I'm writing comments on, I'm astonished how much of the traditional scene on the ECML was retained until quite late. I've found a shot I took at Bytham in 1975, and there's the 'box still, semaphore signals, some points and, of course, the delightful GNR three-arch bridges were still there. Even the 'shadow' of where the platforms were was still distinguishable. Though the girder bridge had gone by 1963, the formation of the MR/M&GNR was still clear. Today, mature trees cover the embankments, as they do on the main line. The 'box and the signals went pre-electrification and all the main lines were slewed towards the west, but what a truly boring scene now presents itself (at least to me).

 

When we moved to the village, the ECML sets were in GNER livery, which, to me, had a dignity and link with the past. I wonder how much Virgin paid to cover the sets with swishes which in my opinion have no harmony with the carriages' shapes and a branding which looks as if a giant icing cone has been used to splurge a puerile symbol upon it! Oddly enough, the current livery makes the Mk. 4 cars look as if they're made of crumpled aluminium foil.   

[APOLLO]

Now that would be worth modelling, Tony as a toddler throwing his (ready to run) toys out of the pram !!!!!!!!

 

Sorry Tony, only joking.

 

Brit15

[gr.king]

The LNER modelled as per the 1940s? If you ask me that's only safe so long as you stick to 1940 and the first half of 1941, steering well clear of austerity livery schemes, Thompsonisation, alien 2-8-0s, tin coaches and renumbering.

[Headstock]

Now that would be worth modelling, Tony as a toddler throwing his (ready to run) toys out of the pram !!!!!!!!

 

Sorry Tony, only joking.

 

Brit15

 

I always imagined Tony would have turned out his first scratch built pacific by the time he was out of nappies.

 

Andrew,

 

What part of the 1940s? By 1944 every loco would probably be black (and/or filthy) and the carriages plain brown. The late '40s, with BR just coming into being would be brighter. Who knows (though I never went to LB as a child), I could include a model of me as a toddler/small boy. 

 

If LB were to regress to the streamliner years, then some somersault signals would be needed. 

 

Tony Gee mentioned Deltics. Going through the various pictures I'm writing comments on, I'm astonished how much of the traditional scene on the ECML was retained until quite late. I've found a shot I took at Bytham in 1975, and there's the 'box still, semaphore signals, some points and, of course, the delightful GNR three-arch bridges were still there. Even the 'shadow' of where the platforms were was still distinguishable. Though the girder bridge had gone by 1963, the formation of the MR/M&GNR was still clear. Today, mature trees cover the embankments, as they do on the main line. The 'box and the signals went pre-electrification and all the main lines were slewed towards the west, but what a truly boring scene now presents itself (at least to me).

 

When we moved to the village, the ECML sets were in GNER livery, which, to me, had a dignity and link with the past. I wonder how much Virgin paid to cover the sets with swishes which in my opinion have no harmony with the carriages' shapes and a branding which looks as if a giant icing cone has been used to splurge a puerile symbol upon it! Oddly enough, the current livery makes the Mk. 4 cars look as if they're made of crumpled aluminium foil.   

 

Considering the amount of work that has gone into Little Bytham, I would consider it an act of vandalism to change a thing. The fact that you have accurately modelled a particulate period, and a real location is of more interest to me then the choice of period itself. I love layouts were the operators can tell me what the trains are, why they looked the way they did, and what they were doing. An aspect of railway modelling that is not bound by any particular period, rather the predilections of the modeller.

[manna]

G'day Gents

 

Did LB change that much between 1937 and 1957, a few signals and maybe a coat of paint ???????

 

manna (AKA Terry)