Wright writes.....

[APOLLO]

At the end of steam (August 1968) Metrovicks and Claytons were often seen around Carnforth, and there was usually one or two on Carnforth shed. I also remember around this time, occasionally seeing Metrovick and Claytons on Wigan Springs Branch shed. Only for a short period though, never saw any again south of Preston Jan 1969 onwards.

 

Brit15

[46256]

The engine movements that I have not seen modelled, are those of "dead" locos ...either withdrawn or en route to works... . They were pulled in groups or in the middle of goods trains, I appreciate that such movements were very much of the sixties or seventies....or am I wrong? Not for the first or indeed last time...this just happened to coincide with my spending a lot of time observing the then current railway, before other ....interests took hold..

[Tony Wright]

As I've mentioned on several occasions, one of the greatest pleasures I derive from my railway modelling is to have friends round bringing models they've made/modified. 

 

This week, a mate from Scotland, Brian Torrance and his wife stayed with us and he brought some typically-Scottish models of his. 

 

 

 

 

This trio of tanks, for instance, made from various kits. 

 

 

This Glen was very nice, made, painted and weathered by him. 

 

 

He'd also renumbered and weathered this Bachmann K3. It appeared in BRM last year, on the Newcastleton layout from the Edinburgh & Lothians MRS. I gave him one of Ian Wilson's Pacific front numberplates to fix on top of the fudged one. It really only shows up in photographs. 

 

 

He'd also done a very nice weathering job on this Bachmann Standard 4 2-6-0. 

 

 

 

Most interesting, to me, though, was this pair. Brian had built the B16/1 from an old DJH kit and it ran like a lame dog accompanied by a team of lumberjacks! No matter, if I can't help friends then there is little point in having them. I made a diagnosis (friends - and non-friends in particular - will know how brutal these can be!). As can be seen, it was very nose-heavy, the bogie wheels are absolutely awful (they came with the kit) and no amount of tweaking or oiling was going to cure the poor running. So, first strip the chassis down and install a new motor/gearbox (a small Portescap in this case), fixing new pick-ups to boot. Then, raise up the front end and eventually (when Brian gets them from Markits), replace those horrid bogie wheels. The end result, though it displays that familiar (and irritating) Portescap whine, a fine-running loco now. The picture was taken before any alterations were made. 

 

The River is even more interesting. It's one of DJH's Ltd-Edition locos of some years ago and was part-built by a now-deceased modeller. Brian had had a go at finishing it, but this one was even louder than the B16. So, another strip-down, this time installing a Mashima/Comet motor/gearbox combination, as well as making new pick-ups. The end result, after curing some occasional shorts (taking a bit off the inside of the cylinders and putting on a thin layer of Araldite), was a beautifully-smooth, powerful and silent runner. 40 wagons were taken with ease.

 

A week like this just spent is such a splendid experience. I get more pleasure seeing the look on someone's face when one of their locos performs perfectly than they do. For any help I give, donations are requested to a charity of the choice of the person I've helped. I don't ask an amount, nor do I check up. If I had to, they wouldn't be my friends. 

 

I see nothing 'noble' in this; I'm helping myself far more than I'm helping others. That said, I often ponder what some 'critics' (not just of me or other modellers) might be doing by way of 'good work', rather than just sniping or complaining all the time, or just posting irrelevancies. So what, if a model isn't dead right, have a go at putting it right yourself. Or, if you (the generic 'you') have nothing creative or helpful to say, then say nothing.

 

Naturally, I got muddled up in arranging the pictures. The Caley Jumbo (and its train) and Scottish Director are also Brian's work. Splendid stuff, and keep it up! 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

 

I know this picture has appeared in the last post, but only as a thumbnail.

 

As mentioned, it's a Scottish Director, built from a Nu-Cast kit by Brian Torrance (I've given him some correct bogie wheels). The introduction of Bachmann's RTR Directors will have now just about killed off any kits for this elegant loco. 

 

The reason for featuring it again is to highlight how bare LB's platforms are at the moment. I've hinted at the platform edge coping stones by merely using an HB pencil and and a square (my approach to such modelling is sketch-book). The bareness will not last much longer, for Bob Dawson is speeding on with making the platform buildings. 

Edited May 14, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

During the week, Sandra Orpen also visited, bringing with her some of her models. 

 

 

She built this Coal Tank many years ago completely from K's parts. It ran very well. I asked her if she practised making K's kits by raising the dead, turning water into wine and walking on water! 

 

 

This little Dukedog was lovely.

 

 

She did tell me what this antiquated GWR outside-framed 0-6-0 was, but I've forgotten. 

 

 

This Portescap-powered K's Stanier Mogul was bought at Ally Pally for a pittance, apparently.

 

 

She left the best to last - this beautifully-built and finished Comet GWR Slip Coach. 

 

Do others find models such as the above and in my immediately-previous posts, much more interesting than the latest piece of RTR wonderment? I certainly do. They have a story to tell, told in the most part by those who made them. Thank you, Sandra, for bringing them. And, also, for running the railway so diligently, despite my inane attempts at trying to operate it. It does work, it's just that I don't! 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Red Devil]

 

Do others find models such as the above and in my immediately-previous posts, much more interesting than the latest piece of RTR wonderment? I certainly do. They have a story to tell, told in the most part by those who made them. Thank you, Sandra, for bringing them. And, also, for running the railway so diligently, despite my inane attempts at trying to operate it. It does work, it's just that I don't! 

 

I for one certainly do, nothing wrong with 'either approach' but seeing what's been built as opposed to what box has been opened is definitely more interesting in my book. 

 

I hope everyone doesn't mind me sharing one that I recently picked up with a view to tidying/detailing/repainting is this  B1, purchased for probably less than what a split chassis Bachmann B1 would cost, I think I'd rather do something with this than buy a new Hornby or Bachmann one.

 

[kingfisher24]

Tony

 

It

As I've mentioned on several occasions, one of the greatest pleasures I derive from my railway modelling is to have friends round bringing models they've made/modified. 

 

This week, a mate from Scotland, Brian Torrance and his wife stayed with us and he brought some typically-Scottish models of his. 

 

Caley 0-4-4T.jpg

 

Caley 3F tank.jpg

 

J83.jpg

 

This trio of tanks, for instance, made from various kits. 

 

Glen.jpg

 

This Glen was very nice, made, painted and weathered by him. 

 

K3.jpg

 

He'd also renumbered and weathered this Bachmann K3. It appeared in BRM last year, on the Newcastleton layout from the Edinburgh & Lothians MRS. I gave him one of Ian Wilson's Pacific front numberplates to fix on top of the fudged one. It really only shows up in photographs. 

 

BR Standard 4 2-6-0.jpg

 

He'd also done a very nice weathering job on this Bachmann Standard 4 2-6-0. 

 

B16 1.jpg

 

River Class.jpg

 

Most interesting, to me, though, was this pair. Brian had built the B16/1 from an old DJH kit and it ran like a lame dog accompanied by a team of lumberjacks! No matter, if I can't help friends then there is little point in having them. I made a diagnosis (friends - and non-friends in particular - will know how brutal these can be!). As can be seen, it was very nose-heavy, the bogie wheels are absolutely awful (they came with the kit) and no amount of tweaking or oiling was going to cure the poor running. So, first strip the chassis down and install a new motor/gearbox (a small Portescap in this case), fixing new pick-ups to boot. Then, raise up the front end and eventually (when Brian gets them from Markits), replace those horrid bogie wheels. The end result, though it displays that familiar (and irritating) Portescap whine, a fine-running loco now. The picture was taken before any alterations were made. 

 

The River is even more interesting. It's one of DJH's Ltd-Edition locos of some years ago and was part-built by a now-deceased modeller. Brian had had a go at finishing it, but this one was even louder than the B16. So, another strip-down, this time installing a Mashima/Comet motor/gearbox combination, as well as making new pick-ups. The end result, after curing some occasional shorts (taking a bit off the inside of the cylinders and putting on a thin layer of Araldite), was a beautifully-smooth, powerful and silent runner. 40 wagons were taken with ease.

 

A week like this just spent is such a splendid experience. I get more pleasure seeing the look on someone's face when one of their locos performs perfectly than they do. For any help I give, donations are requested to a charity of the choice of the person I've helped. I don't ask an amount, nor do I check up. If I had to, they wouldn't be my friends. 

 

I see nothing 'noble' in this; I'm helping myself far more than I'm helping others. That said, I often ponder what some 'critics' (not just of me or other modellers) might be doing by way of 'good work', rather than just sniping or complaining all the time, or just posting irrelevancies. So what, if a model isn't dead right, have a go at putting it right yourself. Or, if you (the generic 'you') have nothing creative or helpful to say, then say nothing.

 

Naturally, I got muddled up in arranging the pictures. The Caley Jumbo (and its train) and Scottish Director are also Brian's work. Splendid stuff, and keep it up!

 

 

Tony

 

Its very nice to see brian's stock on holiday as it were, the 439 and j83 would i think need a bunker wagon or two to get this far south. i look forward to seeing these loco's tomorrow at the glenrothes show. A busy weekend ahead.

Tony the platform surfaces are really coming together and i look forward to seeing more of the layout in brm.

 

Gary

[gr.king]

Page 400 arrives entirely without fuss.....

The preceding picture of the River class prompts a question. Why did pre-group railway company culture in Scotland afford so much weight to the views of the civil engineer and so little to those of the CME or loco superintendent, when often the latter was likely to know far more (of the limited knowledge of the time) regarding dynamic loading, dynamic balance and hammer blow? Even the directors, with no engineering training or skills, in some cases instructed the CME on what to design and how it should be designed! This crippled attempts to produce locos fully adequate for the needs of the NBR and HR.

Edited May 14, 2016 by gr.king

[Tony Wright]

I for one certainly do, nothing wrong with 'either approach' but seeing what's been built as opposed to what box has been opened is definitely more interesting in my book. 

 

I hope everyone doesn't mind me sharing one that I recently picked up with a view to tidying/detailing/repainting is this  B1, purchased for probably less than what a split chassis Bachmann B1 would cost, I think I'd rather do something with this than buy a new Hornby or Bachmann one.

 

b1 004.JPG

Do you know anything of the B1's origins?

 

Bits of it appear to be Jamieson (the low front and large cut-out to the tender, for instance), but not the valve gear or smokebox door.  

[Tony Wright]

Page 400 arrives entirely without fuss.....

 

The preceding picture of the River class prompts a question. Why did pre-group railway company culture in Scotland afford so much weight to the views of the civil engineer and so little to those of the CME or loco superintended, when often the latter was likely to know far more (of the limited knowledge of the time) regarding dynamic loading, dynamic balance and hammer blow? Even the directors, with no engineering training or skills, in some cases instructed the CME on what to design and how it should be designed! This crippled attempts to produce locos fully adequate for the needs of the NBR and HR.

Smith lost his job on the Highland because the civil engineer (with whom there was enmity) barred the River Class because of its weight. The CCE obviously paid no attention to the fact that the two-cylinder 4-6-0s, though they were lighter, did far more damage to the track/structures than the much better balanced three-cylinder Rivers. They were thus sold to the Caley, and instantly became the best big express passenger loco that great company had (which must have miffed Pickersgill a bit, since his big 4-6-0s were duds). A late friend, who knew the Rivers in their prime, once told me that the ex-Caley drivers and ex-HR drivers (this was in LMS days) thought them the equal of the Stanier Black Fives, when the latter class was built. Interestingly, when the HR and CR became part of the LMS, the new CCE (who knew what he was doing), allowed the Rivers back on the Highland main line.

 

400 pages? This thread must be of interest to some.    

[jamie92208]

Smith lost his job on the Highland because the civil engineer (with whom there was enmity) barred the River Class because of its weight. The CCE obviously paid no attention to the fact that the two-cylinder 4-6-0s, though they were lighter, did far more damage to the track/structures than the much better balanced three-cylinder Rivers. They were thus sold to the Caley, and instantly became the best big express passenger loco that great company had (which must have miffed Pickersgill a bit, since his big 4-6-0s were duds). A late friend, who knew the Rivers in their prime, once told me that the ex-Caley drivers and ex-HR drivers (this was in LMS days) thought them the equal of the Stanier Black Fives, when the latter class was built. Interestingly, when the HR and CR became part of the LMS, the new CCE (who knew what he was doing), allowed the Rivers back on the Highland main line.

 

400 pages? This thread must be of interest to some.    

 

I believe that such things continued for many years and that there were problems between Bullied and his civil engineer though the Bullied Pacifics were as far as I know superbly balanced with very little hammer blow compared to some other locos.

 

Jamie

[davidw]

Sir Charles Newton A4: Not quite RTR; a scrap a4 Hornby body (£5:00 at an exhibition it was missing handrails and chimney). The railroad chassis  was purchased off eBay. Super detail valve gear replaced the original chunky valve gear. The tender is a GBLM tender which started life in Garter blue. Fox-transfers were used for the lining. Then it was weathered with an airbrush and powders.

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by davidw

[96701]

The end result, though it displays that familiar (and irritating) Portescap whine, 

The Comet MGB1 with Maxon motor developed by Geoff Brewin doesn't whine - at least not in the Duke of Gloucester that he built with the first production run.

[Tony Wright]

The Comet MGB1 with Maxon motor developed by Geoff Brewin doesn't whine - at least not in the Duke of Gloucester that he built with the first production run.

Phil,

 

Neither did the King which Geoff had, which also had the same Maxon/gearbox arrangement. It seemed a very good drive arrangement, but at over twice the price of equivalents (not Portescaps), I wonder how viable it really would have been. 

 

I think the whine is a phenomenon of the later Portescaps. When they were first introduced, they were almost silent but more recent ones make a familiar (and very annoying to me) whine as they run. I gave up using them because of that, though they seem to command 'ridiculous' prices if some e-Bay reports are to be believed. My choice these days for loco drives is DJH (pre-built), Comet, Markits and High Level. The three which have to be built need great care in assembly, though when built properly they are very smooth and silent. Like earlier Portescaps in the former case, but completely unlike the later ones in the latter.  

[Tony Wright]

 

Sir Charles Newton A4: Not quite RTR; a scrap a4 Hornby body (£5:00 at an exhibition it was missing handrails and chimney). The railroad chassis  was purchased off eBay. Super detail valve gear replaced the original chunky valve gear. The tender is a GBLM tender which started life in Garter blue. Fox-transfers were used for the lining. Then it was weathered with an airbrush and powders.

 

 

David,

 

It looks very good, but I have one query. Spoked wheels on the loco's tender? 

 

In all the miles of writing I've produced on A4s and countless pictures I've examined, I've only come across one example of spoked wheels on an A4 tender, that towed by WOODCOCK later in its life.

 

Does anyone know examples of A4s towing tenders running on spoked wheels, please?  

[davidw]

David,

 

It looks very good, but I have one query. Spoked wheels on the loco's tender? 

 

In all the miles of writing I've produced on A4s and countless pictures I've examined, I've only come across one example of spoked wheels on an A4 tender, that towed by WOODCOCK later in its life.

 

Does anyone know examples of A4s towing tenders running on spoked wheels, please?  

 

Oh bother! - I remember discussions with Morgan on the A1/1 about spoked wheels but never thought of it here. I've looked though some volumes and it's difficult to tell. I've got a set of disc spares so I'll swap them. Many thanks 

Edited May 14, 2016 by davidw

[asmay2002]

The CCE obviously paid no attention to the fact that the two-cylinder 4-6-0s, though they were lighter, did far more damage to the track/structures than the much better balanced three-cylinder Rivers.

 

The Rivers had 2 cylinders not 3. They did have a lower hammer blow than the Castles and Clans and so do less damage to the track but this came at the expense of a rougher riding loco. The civil engineering profession as whole did not understand hammer blow at the time and it wasn't until the late 1920s that the true situation was understood (and the Rivers allowed back on the Highland).  The HR wasn't the only railway affected by this problem of lack of understanding of the science. The only Scottish 4-6-0s with three cylinders were the Caledonian 956 class originally fitted with conjugated valve gear and universally acknowledged as utter failures.

[Tony Wright]

The Rivers had 2 cylinders not 3. They did have a lower hammer blow than the Castles and Clans and so do less damage to the track but this came at the expense of a rougher riding loco. The civil engineering profession as whole did not understand hammer blow at the time and it wasn't until the late 1920s that the true situation was understood (and the Rivers allowed back on the Highland).  The HR wasn't the only railway affected by this problem of lack of understanding of the science. The only Scottish 4-6-0s with three cylinders were the Caledonian 956 class originally fitted with conjugated valve gear and universally acknowledged as utter failures.

Thanks,

 

I've read it somewhere that the Rivers had three cylinders. Or, was I getting mixed up with the SR class of the same name? 

 

Where is it reported that the HR Rivers were rough-riding? My late friend, G N Nowell-Gossling (of Manifold fame) had experience of them north of Carlisle and said they ran like a Pullman car. 

[Blandford1969]

Thanks,

 

I've read it somewhere that the Rivers had three cylinders. Or, was I getting mixed up with the SR class of the same name? 

 

Where is it reported that the HR Rivers were rough-riding? My late friend, G N Nowell-Gossling (of Manifold fame) had experience of them north of Carlisle and said they ran like a Pullman car. 

There is a new book by the Caledonian Railway Society on the 956 full of very useful photos and drawings. I always wondered if they just tried to copy the rivers.

[asmay2002]

Thanks,

 

I've read it somewhere that the Rivers had three cylinders. Or, was I getting mixed up with the SR class of the same name? 

 

Where is it reported that the HR Rivers were rough-riding? My late friend, G N Nowell-Gossling (of Manifold fame) had experience of them north of Carlisle and said they ran like a Pullman car. 

 

C P Atkins book "The Scottish 4-6-0" classes talks about the last two in their later years being very rough indeed but perhaps this is a little unfair as the were worn out by that stage. Fundamentally though the unbalanced energy has to go somewhere and if it doesn't go into the track it gives you more wear and tear on the loco so although they might be OK when new they get rougher as time goes by. 

[Tony Wright]

C P Atkins book "The Scottish 4-6-0" classes talks about the last two in their later years being very rough indeed but perhaps this is a little unfair as the were worn out by that stage. Fundamentally though the unbalanced energy has to go somewhere and if it doesn't go into the track it gives you more wear and tear on the loco so although they might be OK when new they get rougher as time goes by. 

Many thanks,

 

Though I have a few books related to Scottish steam, it is not an extensive collection.

 

Speaking of Scottish steam, or models of it, it seems that the RTR boys don't see indigenous classes north of the border as being that viable. There was the Scottish Director from Bachmann, but that came on the back of the English model. There have been others, but nowhere near the number of English equivalents. Where there is a post-Grouping or BR Standard class which worked all over the country, then there isn't a problem. To be fair to Hornby, the firm even did a Scottish B1 with strengthening gussets to the footplate angles, but purely Scottish classes are thin on the ground. There was, of course, the Clan, but that used much from the Britannia. 

 

With regard to how individual locos rode, I've spoken down the years to many professional railwaymen and their view is very often different from the enthusiastic amateur. I've been commissioned to write another pictorial bookazine for Irwell Press, this time featuring the Deltics. Most of the pictures in it will be mine, and their are some anecdotes included, particularly stories from drivers of the big Type 5s. On speaking to a driver at Grantham who'd just taken my train over Stoke Summit at 105 m.p.h., there was nothing to touch them; in fairness, the train engine should have been a Class 31. Other drivers complained about the noise, the windblown cab, the poor visibility, the uncomfortable driving position and the fact that one froze in winter and cooked in summer. One driver I know has permanently impaired hearing after 20 years of sitting with those two roaring Napiers behind him. Yet, they went further and faster than any other diesel until the advent of the HST, and no ER main line timetable of the '60s and '70s would have been possible without them.

 

Horses for courses, one might say.   

[Willie Whizz]

Many thanks,

 

Though I have a few books related to Scottish steam, it is not an extensive collection.

 

Speaking of Scottish steam, or models of it, it seems that the RTR boys don't see indigenous classes north of the border as being that viable. There was the Scottish Director from Bachmann, but that came on the back of the English model. 

Curious though that while there seem to have been a number of variations on 'Scottish Directors' since the model was introduced, even now the only 'English' D11 produced in BR livery remains Prince Albert.  Over-production perhaps?

 

As my "other hobby" is naval history and it's the 100th anniversary of the greatest ever sea battle at the end of this month I'd love to have had a Jutland from them in time.

 

No good, it's a beautiful model; when the budget allows I'll just have to buy one and change the plates and numbers.  Yay, modelling!!

[gr.king]

I've recently re-read the C. P. Atkins book, that is what prompted me to ask the question following the appearance of the relevant picture....

[manna]

G'day Gents

 

Deltic's, noisy, smelly, and uncomfortable, but, boy couldn't they move, I signed on one night at KX, to be told by the foreman, 'Go with Driver ****, so off we went to 'Donny' on the cushions, waited there for ages, before a Deltic on a 'sleeper' rocked up, we had to have a pilot as we had to go via Lincoln, so after a long tedious trip to Peterborough, standing in the Deltic's cab nose well, I heard the driver say to me 'You take her', , so slipping into the drivers seat, we waited to get 'right away', as we got the whistle, the drivers said to me ' the speed limits, we're already two hours late' the controller was open wide just after leaving P/borough, the speedo said a 105mph by the time we got to Connington, we kept that up mile after mile, but had to slow down for engineering work between Sandy and Hitchin, then back up to top speed again, made up about 20 mins between P/borough and KX, (sleeper trains are/were limited to 90mph)

 

manna (AKA Terry)  

[polybear]

 

I think the whine is a phenomenon of the later Portescaps. When they were first introduced, they were almost silent but more recent ones make a familiar (and very annoying to me) whine as they run. I gave up using them because of that, though they seem to command 'ridiculous' prices if some e-Bay reports are to be believed. My choice these days for loco drives is DJH (pre-built), Comet, Markits and High Level. The three which have to be built need great care in assembly, though when built properly they are very smooth and silent. Like earlier Portescaps in the former case, but completely unlike the later ones in the latter.  

Never tried this myself, but this link may help:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi35M3hzNrMAhVLIsAKHUKkAPYQFgg7MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cometmodels.co.uk%2Fdata%2FPDF%2FNoisy%2520Portescaps.PDF&usg=AFQjCNGNirWc0IazBo6L9ZJDo4Dp5Rowkw

 

HTH

Brian