Wright writes.....

[Andy Hayter]

Tony

 

the comments by you and others regarding the difference between intrinsic and monetary value, perhaps throws up a trend that has become apparent in the UK over at least a couple of decades or maybe longer. 

 

It was perhaps started with the BBC Greed on Sunday show - aka Antiques Roadshow.  Coupled with house price inflation "what's it worth" syndrome - that developed into Flog It!

 

What we see are people more interested in what they can sell something for, rather than what is its real worth (to me) - intrinsic worth.

 

A society that seems entrenched in what is my house worth? has it increased by 5% or dropped by 4% in the last year?  leads to, what are my models worth?  And therefore the requirement that that value MUST be more (probably much more) than I paid for them.

 

I sense that sentiment in some of the posts regarding what modellers have paid (for a commission) versus what that model is today worth in monetary value.

 

 

To perhaps put that in some sort of perspective - and relating back to the property market - I bought a house and barn in France some 14 or so years ago for £60k at then exchange rates.   After extensive renovation, I now have a 4 bed residence, with railway room of 10 x 6 metres (and frankly said still not big enough).   The total costs at todays exchange would probably exceed any resale value (by a bit but not too much).  This worries me not a jot.  Until I do intend to sell, the property has no monetary value to me.  It is where I live.  It provides all (nearly al)l of my immediate and foreseeable needs.  Its monetary value to me is now really immaterial.  It only has value to my heirs, not to me - unless I were to decide to sell in the future.

 

Likewise I have just completed a job lot of Slater's PO coal wagon kits.  These were bought as a job lot some 25 maybe 30 years ago and included the transfers for a number of S Yorks mining companies.  I doubt I paid very much for the plastic bag full of goodies.   I strongly suspect that I could have sold these as unbuilt kits for more than the completed models are "worth" at a today auction site.  That is not the point, like my house, the value is in the usage and not in the monetary return that a wise boy could make by buying and selling with cash profit as the only motivation. 

 

Put another way, if I commissioned you or any other respected modeller to build me something, it would be for something that I wanted to have and use and not for what it might be worth in 5, 10, 15 years time.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Andy Hayter

[46256]

If I can offer a slightly different perspective. I had in my collection two models of a loco type common at and if not unique, then certainly rarely seen in other than my modelled location.

I had created two versions of this loco by different sources. The two models had in common comet chassis...markit wheels and portescap motors.....even at nineties prices a considerable outlay.

 

In recent times a fantastic looking RTR version of the loco became available.i had as stated modelled two Versions. I decided to sell the one which had required less adaptation...and aquire the RTR Direct replacement. It was still a considerable financial purchase. The new loco was and sadly still is a poor performer...even after considerable expenditure and use of a friend whose modelling skills far outweigh mine..and even now still does not match the performance of the original model sadly sold.In conclusion I am still paying to have an efficient working model of this loco.....you may guess which one from other threads..regardless of its eventual worth to my benificiaries.....one of whom delights in describing. How he will dismantle my rail empire in n my demise....little knowing that my main benificiary will be a donkey sanctuary in Corsica ...

[Headstock]

I do like those tarpaulins on those wagons Andrew. What method do you use for making and weathering them?

 

Good morning Tom,

 

page 643, post 16059. A few things have changed from the original post, for example, numbers and lettering have been changed as they were discontinued from the sides of sheets in 1926. Below is and updated shot of some of the wagons with the sheeting almost finished, just requiring roping on.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Headstock

[46256]

i hope you don't mind me sharing this photo here...Graeme King resin V2 given to me a couple of years ago by my good friend John ( rowanj) I have added os steam pipes handrails now awaiting comet chassis high level gea box and big mashima. A lovely piece of work by Graeme....hope I do it justice. On a separate note had a major problem with my Hornby Scot chassis...home made frames and aforementioned gearbox and motor combination to rectify the problem

[Tony Wright]

I couldn't agree more with the sentiments recently expressed that the 'worth' of any model is either in its construction by its owner or as a result of a specific commission. In the (current) hands of its builder/owner, its resale value (or potential resale value) is, to some extent, irrelevant. It's only when it's sold on, either because its builder/owner no longer needs/wants it, needs to sell it to raise funds or it's to be sold on behalf of a bereaved family, after the builder/owner had died that its monetary value becomes important.

 

 

 

This model fits into the last-mentioned category. It's a Union Mills Q2 in N gauge and was the property of Peter Wild, a long-standing member of Market Deeping MRC who died earlier this year. The 'big thing' behind it is the model of Big Bertha I'm making. 

 

I was a demonstrator/loco doctor at the Market Deeping Show today in Stamford, where Mo and I raised £35.00 for Cancer Research. My thanks to all who donated, either by my fixing their model(s) - even an N Gauge 4-6-0! - or as a percentage of the sale of models on behalf of widows. A large number of Peter's models were on the club S/H stand, including the one above, plus nine more Union Mills locos. None of these sold. 

 

So, the reason for this posting is to ask is there anyone out there interested in the following? They are all Union Mills RTR N Gauge locos. Most are brand new and/or hardly-used. All are boxed. The prices are those suggested by Mkt Deeping Club members, based on the current price of these locos (though I have no idea whether these are 'realistic' since I haven't looked). All are in BR livery. They are.......

 

B12  61572   £79.00

D20  62395   £77.00

J11   64292   £69.00

J25   65685   £69.00

J38   65929   £69.00

J39   64736   £69.00

J39   64829   £69.00

Q2    63344   £75.00

3F    43808    £69.00

7F    49659    £75.00

 

Are these prices fair? Clearly, nobody at the show today thought them 'tempting' enough.

 

They are being offered on behalf of Peter's widow and his family.

 

If anyone is interested, please PM me.

 

My thanks in anticipation.     

Edited May 6, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Atso]

Good evening Tony,

 

From memory the prices being asked for the Union Mills locomotives is very close (if not identical) to the prices Colin is currently charging for new locomotives. I am also of the understanding that the newer versions of these locomotives have a new, more controllable at lower speeds, drive unit.

 

My experience of second hand Union Mills products is variable. The last second hand locomotive I purchased was a D11 for £55 three years ago (currently somewhere between £75 & £80 new based on the D16/3 I bought last year). That said I've occasionally seen second hand Union Mills go for more than the latest versions on a certain online auction site (same livery and number as current batches, so I assume to people not aware of the existence of Union Mills) but personally, for the price, I would rather have the guarantee that any issues with the locomotive will be sorted at the manufacturers expense for the first twelve months - although there really isn't much that seems to go wrong with Union Mills products generally.

 

I think this reflects on the earlier comments about items holding their value but in this case all these models are readily available new. While it pains me to say it (considering the reason for the sale), I think that the prices need to be adjusted downwards by £10-£15 before much interest is shown - I hope I'm wrong though...

Edited May 6, 2017 by Atso

[richard i]

Quiz question if I may.

I was gifted this kit half built and am trying to finish it, I only have the line drawing t go by. I have worked it all out except what looks like a double window insert as the NER CCT only seems to have single windows. Am I missing something?

Any ideas from this learned group would be much appreciated.

As an aside cleaning up crud and tarnish from many years of storage takes a while. I still feel there is a way to go before painting.

Richard

[DougN]

Quiz question if I may.

Any ideas from this learned group would be much appreciated.

As an aside cleaning up crud and tarnish from many years of storage takes a while. I still feel there is a way to go before painting.

Richard

Nice build going on there! To remove the Crud etc from the brass I use a sauce pan cleaner which has the same active ingredients as "shiney sinks" I lather it all on and give it a good wash under running water over a bowl or tub.... so when a loose bit falls off I don't lose it down the sink.

 

The active ingredient is called "sulfamic acid" in a product called Raco stainless steel and copper cookware cleaner. But this is made here in Australia. You should be able to find a similar product in your local super market or even the kitchen!

[jwealleans]

I have worked it all out except what looks like a double window insert as the NER CCT only seems to have single windows. Am I missing something?

I think you are - another kit. I built one of these last year for Grantham and I don't even recall seeing that part.

 

 

However, Roger also did kits for both the longer versions, which are essentially two of these stuck together. I think you have the droplights for the double doors from one of those. The end strapping, which is on the rest of the etch, is the same, so it may be he's reused that part of the artwork or even that you have a piece of etch which has been left over from another kit or used to replace a damaged part.

 

This is the longer version - Tony has one of the LNER design, which evolved from this, in his exhibition display at the moment.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by jwealleans

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Richard and Jonathan

 

I have looked in my Campling LNER coaches drawing book and there were two versions of the bogie van. One with doors without windies and one with. They must be etchings for the version with windows in the doors duplicated on the etch for the 4 wheeler and the bogie without door windows.

 

Edit, Richard inherited both a part built 4 wheeler and a bogie van without door windows off me.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

Nice build going on there! To remove the Crud etc from the brass I use a sauce pan cleaner which has the same active ingredients as "shiney sinks" I lather it all on and give it a good wash under running water over a bowl or tub.... so when a loose bit falls off I don't lose it down the sink.

 

The active ingredient is called "sulfamic acid" in a product called Raco stainless steel and copper cookware cleaner. But this is made here in Australia. You should be able to find a similar product in your local super market or even the kitchen!

Hi Doug,

 

Richard has got to find the kitchen first. :locomotive:

[DougN]

Hi Doug,

 

UMmm I was thinking the room with the Food and fridge in it!... 

[Headstock]

I had a crack at the North Eastern Railway version of the bogie CCT some years back, it was a fantastically enjoyable kit to construct. A friend of mine bought both this and the LNER version at the same time but never built either. It's about time they were liberated I think. I hold no truck with perceived value of unbuilt things, build it yourself or sell it on to someone who will put it to better use.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm very happy to be in the second of your categories Doug; many thanks. 

 

The value of model railway items has been aired before and, as you others have quite rightly stated, any value is dependent on what someone else is prepared to pay. In the case of the George the Fifth (cited earlier) my friend was the only bidder at the auction it was sold at, so got it at the reserve price (which still seemed ridiculously low in my opinion). Who knows, were two (or more) interested, it might have got a 'fairer' price. 

 

With regard to Wrenn (and other collectibles), I better put my cards on the table right away. I cannot honestly see how obsolete die-cast or tinplate 'toys' can command the values they do (or did?) compared with superlative, accurate models. Time was when I used to attend the Bassett-Lowke Society meetings near Digswell, as a photographer. My friend, the late Pete Marshall, used to show me this or that tinplate loco from the '30s. In one case, a mint 4-6-0 was worth £20,000! 'What!' As I said, I cannot understand it. Pete used to say he was having the childhood his parents could never afford. 

 

It would seem that the market for such arcane items is diminishing because the number of those who collect it are diminishing - fast! Could the same be true of the likes of Hornby-Dublo and other post-War 'toys'? 

 

To finish off, I'm delighted that so many posters consider the real value of their model railway collections is in their making of things. That, I believe, is priceless. That said, I do try my best to realise the best prices on behalf of bereaved families for the model railway items built by others. 

 

Buying for collecting seems to go in waves whereas buying of kit or scratchbuilt models always coms over to me asa  more stable market at auctions.  Thus Hornby Dublo has been 'up', then it went 'down' and then it went back 'up' - depending I presume on what was available, who was dropping off the perch, and who was entering the fray.  Virtually all of mine went a good time back via Ebay and the market at the time was 'up' - so I smiled.

 

Other things depend very much on 'names' and in some respects on the knowledge of the auctioneer and his regular clientele.  Thus the auction house I used to regularly frequent some years ago always saw good prices for Larry Goddard painted coaches - even if offered in multiples in a lot they very rarely dropped below £100 and sometimes topped £200.  Goddard painted locos similarly attracted a premium as did the work of Brackenborough but very often these items were going to dealers who sold them on at considerable premium.

 

'Ordinary' kitbuilt or scratchbuilt locos without 'a name' seemed to rely very largely on who was into what at any particular time and I have seen as many as a dozen small (decently built and painted) kit built tank engines go in a single lot for well under £100.  In fact generally unbuilt kits tend to go for far higher prices than properly assembled ones and are then sold on by dealers at ludicrous prices.

 

But in every case - as any auctioneer will tell you - it all depends who is bidding on the day.

[Tom F]

Afternoon all

 

I'd appreciate some advice, regarding modelling dry stone walling.

 

After a couple of months of very little interest, I'm returning my attention to Cwm Prysor.

 

 

I'm close to starting the grass work, and the few Scots Pine's that appeared along the branch. However before then, I need to add a couple of rows of dry stone walling that ran along the moorland road and over the level crossing. The method I'm looking into, is one as used by Ian Nuttall on his Settle and Carlisle layout, Dentdale, which involves making a jig from plasticard strips of different thicknesses. DAS Modelling clay is then added and once dry can be cut into strips of different thicknesses. Below is the drystone walling I'll be trying to recreate and how it is today, granted in a more deliberated state.

 

 

 

Has anyone tried the above method?

Edited May 7, 2017 by 9793

[Buckingham]

Physicsman is the exponent of what sounds to be the same method on this layout and the developing scenery is well worth a look.

http://www.rmweb.co....kby-luneside-2/

 

Dave

[Focalplane]

Afternoon all

 

I'd appreciate some advice, regarding modelling dry stone walling.

 

After a couple of months of very little interest, I'm returning my attention to Cwm Prysor.

_MG_8758.jpg

 

IMG_5359.jpg

 

I'm close to starting the grass work, and the few Scots Pine's that appeared along the branch. However before then, I need to add a couple of rows of dry stone walling that ran along the moorland road and over the level crossing. The method I'm looking into, is one as used by Ian Nuttall on his Settle and Carlisle layout, Dentdale, which involves making a jig from plasticard strips of different thicknesses. DAS Modelling clay is then added and once dry can be cut into strips of different thicknesses. Below is the drystone walling I'll be trying to recreate and how it is today, granted in a more deliberated state.

IMG_3562.jpg

 

IMG_3565.jpg

 

 

Has anyone tried the above method?

 

Hi Tom

 

I have intimate knowledge with dry stone walls, having been chased through one by a bull near Ingleton when a student in the mid 1960s.  They vary enormously in style and make up, largely depending on the type of rocks available.  Cwm Prysor walls, like the one you show, are made of mostly hard, fine grained sub-metamorphic rocks which don't break into "easy" tabular shapes like limestones do in, for example, the Cotswolds.  There may also be some granite blocks involved which will also have a different texture.  The problem is, unlike further west, the rocks are not slaty enough to "cleave".  The result is a random wall that has little internal strength and requires constant attention, perhaps with the addition of barbed wire in places.

 

Your idea seems the best choice for what I believe was to be a portable layout (is it still?) but if it doesn't matter how heavy the layout may become, why not use scale rock chips from the area?  These could be pressed into a plasticard backing and glued, with a capping added after the wall is fitted to the substrate.  It would take time to make but would be as authentic as the real thing!

 

Usually the dry stone wallers fitted the largest lumps at the base, then smaller pieces on top, filling the larger gaps with even smaller pieces.  The fanciest walls (probably not seen out in the wilds or the Arenigs) would have a capping of vertically placed pieces.

 

I hope this is of some interest.  Paul

[coachmann]

I must admit the 'couldn't give a crap' in me is attracted to Hornby's ready-to-plonk walling, then it's simply a matter of changing the colour. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by coachmann

[Tony Teague]

I'd appreciate any help that the assembled company can provide, relating to a long wheelbase LNER CCT which I constructed some years ago from Parkside Dundas kit No.PC30.

 

 

I am a Southern Railway modeller, modelling the period 1938 - 1948 and I built this for an inter-regional parcels train but at that time I was unable to discover what lettering and numbering was appropriate and where it should be applied - so the van has sat in a drawer ever since.

 

I believe that a suitable number would be 1247 but I'd appreciate any help that is offered - perhaps someone has built some of these kits for the same period?

 

Tony

[Mike 84C]

9793, Focalplane has about summed it up. Having done dry stone walling but further west on the FR we used a timber gauge  about 18" wide at the top and about 2' at the base with string lines to keep the paralell lines. Strength comes from packing the middle with small stones and dust. The top uprights are called "cock combs" as in poultry! How many times in my life have I driven past there,even in falling snow! and thought soon be in Porthmadog maybe even the Ship Inn !

[Tony Teague]

My good friend Mike Gascoigne, who has artistic skills some way beyond my own and has been helping me with backscene painting, has also turned his hand to modelling some dry stone walling.

 

 

He built this test length from DAS clay carved with various dental picks and is now building a longer section (about 2'6") on the layout; I think it looks pretty good but it is certainly painstaking work. The layout does not leave home and so fragility is not a particular issue.

 

Tony

[Barry Ten]

My long-term loco project is the Airfix/Craftsman Schools, which is slowly progressing to the paint stage, but in the meantime I thought I'd go back to a project I started more than a decade ago, but which stalled along the way.

 

Long before Bachmann announced their parallel-boiler Patriot, I'd started work on upgrading an old Hornby model to loco drive. The model had been tender drive originally, but the running had turned erratic over the years. I wasn't up to building a chassis at the time, so I thought the easiest route would be to take a Bachmann rebuilt Patriot chassis (which I happened to have) and fit it under the body. This turned out to be a bit of struggle, with both the body and the chassis needing a lot of filing to get a snug, level fit. In the meantime I also built a Comet Fowler tender to replace the Hornby one. As can be seen, I also started lining the tender - using Pressfix lining - but that went hideously wrong so it'll be getting a rub-down, respray and relining using Fox ones.

 

The loco ran reasonably well but after I dismantled the Bachmann split-chassis to convert it to DCC, it was never as good as it had been to start with, and only got worse. By then, though, I could just about conceive of building a Comet chassis as a replacement, and finally I made a start on it this weekend. The motor/gearbox was the DJH unit which I extracted from my Castle a few weeks ago, more suited to the mixed-traffic requirements of this engine.

 

 

As a basic 0-6-0 it runs really nicely, with the gearbox being a little grumbly initially as it's now mounted back to front to how it was in the Castle, meaning forward is now reverse, and it was never properly run in that way. But after an hour trundling around the layout, it's smoothed out very satisfactorily.

 

Incidentally, it only took about 5 - 6 hours to get it to this state, which shows how quickly a chassis can go together when you've got a nicely designed kit, you're not worrying about compensation, springing, quartering etc, and all the tools, soldering iron etc are behaving themselves. The loco will eventually be Lady Godiva, by the way - I bought the plates for 45519 ages ago. If it turns out that she never ran with a flush-sided tender, I don't want to know!

 

Alastair

 

 

[Tony Wright]

I think you are - another kit. I built one of these last year for Grantham and I don't even recall seeing that part.

 

 

However, Roger also did kits for both the longer versions, which are essentially two of these stuck together. I think you have the droplights for the double doors from one of those. The end strapping, which is on the rest of the etch, is the same, so it may be he's reused that part of the artwork or even that you have a piece of etch which has been left over from another kit or used to replace a damaged part.

 

This is the longer version - Tony has one of the LNER design, which evolved from this, in his exhibition display at the moment.

 

Thanks Jonathan,

 

The vehicle you refer to is now being painted. I'm painting it in BR maroon, which fits my period (1958). 

 

 

However, should it not be like this? It looks like the CCT behind SCEPTRE (the last single-chimney A3?) at York in 1959 is the same diagram, but what a peculiar colour. There is a red 'smudge' on the lower bodyside towards the rear. Is that where any brandings were applied? 

 

Speaking of brandings, does anyone know what these vans carried by way of numbers/designation in the late-'50s, please? I can't now find my Larkin book with a picture of one in, but that's too late, anyway. 

 

Mine is a model of an LNER-built van, made during the War years. Does anyone know the BR numbers of these CCTs, please? 

 

Many thanks in anticipation. 

[jwealleans]

For lettering position, Tony, I can offer my own model. I have a feeling these are in one of the Campling Historic Carriage Drawing books, either the blue or yellow one. I'm fairly sure the lettering position on this is accurate, although there are one or two other details I now know aren't.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by jwealleans

[Paul Cram]

The LNER numbers for the low roof version were 1226-41