Wright writes.....

[grob1234]

If you can't find a suitable RTR brake gear assembly, then it shouldn't be too difficult to build a plastic one from evergreen strip, Andy.

[jwealleans]

Alan Gibson do moulded plastic brake shoes.  The rest you can make out of bits of wire.

[Buhar]

The vegetable garden looks good to me. You've got everything green side up,which is the total gardening knowledge required.

[thegreenhowards]

Alan Gibson do moulded plastic brake shoes.  The rest you can make out of bits of wire.

Thanks Jonathan,

 

I think the wire was causing the problem, so I would need to fit them on plastic rod, but they sound promising.

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

Interesting that the the DCC problems should come up again just as I have finally sorted out the A2/1that you helped me fix when I came to stay. It ran ok on DC, but that was obviously hiding a multitude of micro shorts as I could not persuade it to shift more than a few cms on DCC.

 

I fixed the following shorts.

 

Tender wheels on tender body. Sorted with a shim of platicard to isolate tender body and some filing on the wheel slots in the body which are invisible.

 

Front steps on loco, fixed by very minor bending of the steps.

 

Tender to loco coupling bar shorting against rear of Cartesian truck. Fixed by filing both articles back.

 

And most significantly, the loco brake gear on the driving wheels where the clearances were microscopic. This has been fixed by the drastic step of removing the brake gear!

 

So I now have a sweet running loco, but need to find a solution to the brake gear, possibly by using a plastic RTR version.

 

Has anyone had similar experiences converting American pick up locos to DCC? Any tips gratefully received!

 

Thanks

 

Andy

Andy,

 

I think this proves how much more (much, much more) sensitive DCC-fitted locos are to the occasional short. 

 

I have no wish to trawl over the old debates (they've been chewed over to death!), but may I just list a few conclusions on my part, please? 

 

1. I don't think DCC is really suited to metal, kit-built locos which use the American pick-up system. The risk of the odd stray short is far too prominent. Though one, whatever the system employed, should seek to avoid shorts, my experience is that a 'small' short will cause a DC loco to stutter slightly but a DCC loco will completely shut down, and so will the whole system! I don't use the American pick-up system itself because of any short-circuit risks (shorts affect DC as well) and the fact that I can't test run a loco chassis without its tender. Though DJH recommend the system for its loco kit range, in any instructions I've written for the firm I recommend conventional wipers. 

 

2. For DCC use, any kit-built metal loco is better if its chassis is made electrically-dead (thus making the body/tender also electrically-dead) by installing pick-ups both sides and using insulated wheels both sides (or employ split frames?) I know many who use DC employ electrically-dead chassis because it obviates most stray shorts; bogie wheels touching cylinders, tender wheels catching frames, etc. However, it does mean two sets of pick-ups (which I find a fag) and one is denied the use of all wheels on the 'live' side returning the current. All the locos I've built have live chassis, but then I don't use DCC. Under testing, if I do detect a stray short, a smear of Araldite on the offending area instantly cures it. Or, removal of the offending metal. Yes, this can mean nibbling away at the backs of cylinders for instance, but how many big real locos were expected to go round ridiculously tight curves? 

 

3. My experiences with some DCC layouts and my experiences with you and with Clearwater yesterday just reinforce my belief that DCC is not for me, never will be and I wouldn't touch it with the proverbial 'barge-pole'. But, that's me, and there is no point in digging up the subject again. 

 

By the way, and with pedant head on, a Cartesian is a follower of Descartes' philosophy or his mathematical methods. Cartazzi (or Cortazzi) is the name of the truck underneath the back end of the LNER big locos. 

[New Haven Neil]

I think the point is that all DCC decoder installation instructions and books say to make the chassis dead - no exceptions.  So using the 'American' system WILL cause trouble, you're lucky not to bow the chip and let the magic smoke out.  This is why DCC gets bad 'press' when it is the user failing to follow the instructions that is the issue, not a failing of the system. It's no different to converting a loco from 3 rail to 2 rail pickup - there are some things you HAVE to do! Cutting corners will not work.

 

No DC/DCC wars please.  Or Dublo 3 Rail wars for that matter!

 

PS:  Men reading instructions is a subject all of its own.

[Tony Wright]

I think the point is that all DCC decoder installation instructions and books say to make the chassis dead - no exceptions.  So using the 'American' system WILL cause trouble, you're lucky not to bow the chip and let the magic smoke out.  This is why DCC gets bad 'press' when it is the user failing to follow the instructions that is the issue, not a failing of the system. It's no different to converting a loco from 3 rail to 2 rail pickup - there are some things you HAVE to do! Cutting corners will not work.

 

No DC/DCC wars please.  Or Dublo 3 Rail wars for that matter!

 

PS:  Men reading instructions is a subject all of its own.

Neil,

 

I agree entirely.

 

There is no 'war', nor should there be. 

 

There is, however, a most justifiable war against cancer. So, just for the record, Mo and I have sent a cheque to Cancer Research UK this morning for a further £195.00. This is for my loco-doctoring at recent shows, donations from friends when I fix their locos for them and 10% of the sales of items on behalf of bereaved families. 

 

May I please thank all those who've donated so generously? May I also thank those who visit me here for tuition, who also donate most generously to charities of their choice?

 

I'm carrying on my loco-doctoring at many forthcoming shows, all in support of charities. So, please, bring out your duds. 

 

We've now sold everything on behalf of bereaved families (the last two locos going at Stamford at the weekend). Let's hope that's it, at least for now. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

That looks lovely, Tony. I must bring mine out and rework it.

 

Andrew - Matthew Chivers still trades as Five79 Models - he may have some etches or bits left over from the brief period when he sold these. It wouldn't hurt to enquire?

 

They do come up on Ebay from time to time, but not commonly. I picked up the shorter bogie ones at a show, already built and had to strip and remake them.

Thanks Jonathan,

 

One thing the model doesn't have, and none was supplied, are the triangular 'gussets' attached at intervals along the solebars for supporting the bottom outer edges of the body. 

[great central]

 

 

PS: Men reading instructions is a subject all of its own.

Let's face it if men read the 'instructions' the human race probably wouldn't have got beyond Adam and Eve:-)

[jacko]

Let's face it if men read the 'instructions' the human race probably wouldn't have got beyond Adam and Eve:-)

 

Hah! Almost spat coffee over my keyboard.

[thegreenhowards]

Andy,

 

I think this proves how much more (much, much more) sensitive DCC-fitted locos are to the occasional short. 

 

I have no wish to trawl over the old debates (they've been chewed over to death!), but may I just list a few conclusions on my part, please? 

 

1. I don't think DCC is really suited to metal, kit-built locos which use the American pick-up system. The risk of the odd stray short is far too prominent. Though one, whatever the system employed, should seek to avoid shorts, my experience is that a 'small' short will cause a DC loco to stutter slightly but a DCC loco will completely shut down, and so will the whole system! I don't use the American pick-up system itself because of any short-circuit risks (shorts affect DC as well) and the fact that I can't test run a loco chassis without its tender. Though DJH recommend the system for its loco kit range, in any instructions I've written for the firm I recommend conventional wipers. 

 

2. For DCC use, any kit-built metal loco is better if its chassis is made electrically-dead (thus making the body/tender also electrically-dead) by installing pick-ups both sides and using insulated wheels both sides (or employ split frames?) I know many who use DC employ electrically-dead chassis because it obviates most stray shorts; bogie wheels touching cylinders, tender wheels catching frames, etc. However, it does mean two sets of pick-ups (which I find a fag) and one is denied the use of all wheels on the 'live' side returning the current. All the locos I've built have live chassis, but then I don't use DCC. Under testing, if I do detect a stray short, a smear of Araldite on the offending area instantly cures it. Or, removal of the offending metal. Yes, this can mean nibbling away at the backs of cylinders for instance, but how many big real locos were expected to go round ridiculously tight curves? 

 

3. My experiences with some DCC layouts and my experiences with you and with Clearwater yesterday just reinforce my belief that DCC is not for me, never will be and I wouldn't touch it with the proverbial 'barge-pole'. But, that's me, and there is no point in digging up the subject again. 

 

By the way, and with pedant head on, a Cartesian is a follower of Descartes' philosophy or his mathematical methods. Cartazzi (or Cortazzi) is the name of the truck underneath the back end of the LNER big locos.

 

After this experience, I have to agree with you! I hadn't appreciated Neil's point that a dead chassis is a definitive instruction for DCC rather than best practice. We'll see how I get on with the A2/1 now.

 

As for Cartazzi, I blame the iPad auto spell corrector(!), but I still should have noticed

[Barry Ten]

I tend to go for an electrically dead chassis if there's a choice, as I don't find it takes much longer to arrange two sets of pickups. The exceptions are in some older kits which have come into my possession, which are sometimes supplied with non-insulated drivers on one side.

 

I made up the bogie for the Patriot on Sunday. I was anticipating all sorts of clearance issues because the rear wheels are so close to the front brake shoes but to my considerable surprise, it ran flawlessly at the first attempt, with not a hint of a problem. Then I realised that, since the chassis is dead, it's not going to matter if there's momentary contact except in the highly unlikely event of it happening on both sides at the same time.

 

Once the chassis is painted, I'll smear some araldite over the likely contact points just to be 100% sure, as the loco will ultimately be DCC fitted.

 

I agree that care should be taken with DCC installations in the case of a live chassis but my King is one such beast and despite my curves being quite tight, there's never been a problem. The decoder should be isolated from the frames, but that's easily achieved with a sticky pad or plastic spacer, but the critical thing - the thing that could kill a decoder - is to ensure track voltage never goes anywhere near the motor terminals. Provided those are also kept safely isolated from the frames, you should be all right! The one time you can't do it is with an older motor in which one of the terminals is live to the motor frame, as is the case with the Schools. In that case, I don't think there's any way to convert to DCC, but I'm quite happy with DC as well.

 

Alastair

[Tony Wright]

More requests, please.

 

With the death of Paul Anderson, Irwell's expert on bridges is no more. So, though very much second-best, it's fallen my way to comment on such matters for the publishers. 

 

All of these shots (as far as I know) were taken in the late-'50s, south of Peterborough on the ECML. Any comments as to locations, structures and so on will be gratefully appreciated. There are no notes, no dates and no actual locations. 

 

 

Looking south at Fletton? The loco looks rather old, so date might be earlier.

 

 

 

No idea on this one, assuming it is ECML.

 

 

 

On a six-track section but where exactly? Near Stevenage? 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure this is Hatfield. Am I right, please? 

 

 

Between Brookmans Park and Potters Bar?

 

 

 

Brookmans Park?

 

 

Another six-track section, but where? 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

More..................

 

 

 

 

Potters Bar, after the widenings? 

 

 

Again, another six-track section.

 

 

 

North of Stevenage? 

 

 

 

There's a number on this one - 56 or 58.

 

 

Not much to go on, I know. 

 

With electrification, many typical GNR overbridges were destroyed, so these are now history. 

 

My thanks in anticipation. I'll make sure anyone who knows is mentioned in dispatches. 

[jwealleans]

One thing the model doesn't have, and none was supplied, are the triangular 'gussets' attached at intervals along the solebars for supporting the bottom outer edges of the body.

Just to finish off for the Chivers CCTs: Tony is quite right about the gussets, which are the most easily noticed missing feature. There is also an error in the brake gear which Peter Tatlow corrected in MRJ 102. My application of that modification to one of the other diagrams can be viewed here. Tony has also added bogie steps, which I missed on mine. It is also apparent from the photos he found that there are torpedo vents in the roof of the 52' version, which were not visible on the one picture I had to work from.

[Bernard Lamb]

Hatfield, what is now the A1000 for sure and Brookman's Park.

I would need to think a bit about some of the others.

A nice set of photos.

Bernard

[LNER4479]

Hello Tony,

 

Lovely set of pictures. I'm too young to be of much help; however, I'm not convinced that they are all of the ECML. Some of them look very Midland-esque to me, indicating the Midland mainline south of Kettering, the other major four track railway carrying coals to London. Some of the running lines look to be grouped 2 + 2 (as opposed to 1 + 2 + 1 for ECML) and at least one (4th picture of #16570) clearly has a tubular post signal, rare I would suggest for ECML.

 

Acting on that, I've just been browsing on the excellent britainfromabove website and the second picture of #16570 is a possible match for Cricklewood. I'd look some more but should really be working...

[CUTLER2579]

In photograph No. 4 how about the bridge just to the North of Wood Green station.

[BR(W)]

I believe that the second image in the first set is on the Midland main line; the 'gable-end' style of awning suggests that to me. I at first thought Wellingborough, but there is no signal box, and the girder bridges are a puzzle.

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

[Clearwater]

Many thanks to Tony and Mo for their hospitality yesterday. Much appreciated and hopefully I'll make less of a mess of pick-ups going forward and a charity has suitably benefited. Once I have them working in DC, I'll convert to the dreaded DCC.... Interesting to see the evolution of Little Bytham over the year or so between my visits.

 

 

 

.

 

 

On the pictures, in the first of the two posts, Picture 3 looks like the bridge is the far one in picture 5

 

David

[Enterprisingwestern]

Many thanks to Tony and Mo for their hospitality yesterday. Much appreciated and hopefully I'll make less of a mess of pick-ups going forward and a charity has suitably benefited. Once I have them working in DC, I'll convert to the dreaded DCC.... Interesting to see the evolution of Little Bytham over the year or so between my visits.

 

 

 

.little bytham.jpg

 

lb may 2017.jpg

 

On the pictures, in the first of the two posts, Picture 3 looks like the bridge is the far one in picture 5

 

David

 

It would seem the curtains don't get washed very often!

 

Mike.

[Tony Wright]

Hello Tony,

 

Lovely set of pictures. I'm too young to be of much help; however, I'm not convinced that they are all of the ECML. Some of them look very Midland-esque to me, indicating the Midland mainline south of Kettering, the other major four track railway carrying coals to London. Some of the running lines look to be grouped 2 + 2 (as opposed to 1 + 2 + 1 for ECML) and at least one (4th picture of #16570) clearly has a tubular post signal, rare I would suggest for ECML.

 

Acting on that, I've just been browsing on the excellent britainfromabove website and the second picture of #16570 is a possible match for Cricklewood. I'd look some more but should really be working...

Thanks Graham,

 

The fourth picture is a road-level view of the bridge in picture three. Looking at the configuration of the running lines in picture three (which has a concrete post signal  - very GNR), the two centre ones, laid with flat bottom rail, appear to be the fast roads - so, paired by direction (ER) not by speed (MR). 

 

Tubular post signals on the ECML are rarer than elsewhere, but any replacements of earlier semaphore posts would be in that (LMS) style, because that's what BR adopted. I've taken pictures of such signals on the ECML at Retford and Tempsford. 

 

You're right, though, I'm not sure if every picture is ECML. However, that's what I usually get from the great staff at Irwell - where, what, why, when? Get on with it!

Edited May 9, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

It would seem the curtains don't get washed very often!

 

Mike.

How often should curtains be washed? They actually now serve no useful purpose and will be removed. They were the first set of curtains my wife made after we were married (in 1973!), so they've done well. 

[Tony Wright]

In photograph No. 4 how about the bridge just to the North of Wood Green station.

Thanks Derek, though I think it's unlikely. 

 

Since picture four shows the same bridge as in picture three, where is the flyover beyond it? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

How often should curtains be washed? They actually now serve no useful purpose and will be removed. They were the first set of curtains my wife made after we were married (in 1973!), so they've done well. 

 

When they make a crunching/crackling sound when being closed!

 

Mike.