Wright writes.....

[Andrew P]

New buildings 09.jpg

 

Not needing transfers of any kind, the two wooden dwellings at the north end of LB have now been bedded-in, fencing completed, privies provided, rough sheds erected and a few trees 'planted'. Not having any photographic references (only a plan footprint), I have no idea whether this scene is 'right' or not, though I have to say I'm quite pleased with it. It's all my own work, too - look no locos (or trains), though Ian Wilson built the bridge in Station Road and the road vehicle came from the late Gerald Scarborough's collection.  The signpost came via Dart Castings - I just soldered the bits together, painted it and just put 'blobs' of Biro to represent the destinations.  

I have to say, I was very impressed by the quality of the Buildings when I saw them on Friday Tony. I see you've added some Trees over the weekend and it's looking very good indeed. Far less Brambles and Trees on the embankment in your photo than there is today though, you need to get out there with your clippers, hahah or send Mo up there.  

 

Sometimes No Trains can make a nice shot, and yours certainly does, with just the Truck to show sign's of life.

[Tony Wright]

Today, five friends came to run LB.

 

A great time was had by all. Gentlemen, my most grateful thanks for your company and hospitality. 

 

 

One of them brought this; a Brassmasters' George the Fifth. It looked beautiful and ran beautifully. It was, as he 'admitted', an example of chequebook modelling. Now, don't worry, I'm not going back to that old chestnut, but more to view, in a way, part of the state of the hobby today. 

 

The loco was built and painted by Graham Varley, one of the top builder/painter names in the hobby. It was commissioned some 23 years ago by a client and the complete cost, then, was not far off £450.00 (I saw the original invoice). My friend had bought it recently, at auction, for a sum (including commission) of around £150.00. So, 20+ years 'depreciation' has resulted in an absolute bargain! I told him, had I known about it, I'd have bought it. 

 

What does this say for the (potential) resale value of chequebook models? To me, it's forget about a retirement fund from them; what you'll get (even if you're lucky) won't even cover the cost of the component parts! 

 

On a similar tack, this is one of the final locos I'm selling on behalf of the family of the late John Brown.

 

 

I have no idea who built it, but it's well made and runs beautifully. You might remember it was originally in BR livery, but a dear friend models the Southern and I knew he'd be interested in it. So, I removed any BR identity and Geoff Haynes kindly added the Southern brandings and dusted over a coat of light weathering. Both of us did this because any monies are going to a most worthy cause, with 10% going to Cancer Research. 

 

My friend said 'Yes please' and he's having it for £130.00. Though that's a better price than I could have hoped for (see later), it won't even cover the cost of the component parts. The motor/gearbox alone must be over £40.00. 

 

 

Here's the 'see later'. Though this is Hornby's BR version of its S15, I note in Hatton's adverts that the firm is offering an SR RTR equivalent to the DJH one for £88.00! Even a short visual examination will reveal how much more detailed the Hornby one is. 

 

My friend is very generous, so (though he's no doubt got a Hornby S15 - or two), he still wants this one. Having tested it, it'll pull more than the RTR equivalent, but what hope is there for 4mm kits in general? I agree, we've been here before, but the RTR prices seem absurd to me (if a terrific bargain can ever appear absurd). 

 

It looks to me that the future (or the present!) situation would seem to be that if you want to commission a model, please, go ahead, but don't expect its resale value to be anything but derisory in comparison to what you'll pay. Just enjoy it for what it is.

 

If you want to build a kit, do so for exactly that reason - because that's what you want to do or like to do. However, expect to pay at least twice (or probably over three times!) the amount you'll pay for an RTR equivalent, just for the bits.

 

If you can't do anything for yourself, then do ask/pay others to modify/alter/improve your RTR items, but don't expect them to be worth anything like what you've paid for the service. 

 

It would seem to me that the market for second-hand bespoke models is now in the situation where supply is way, way ahead of demand. Was it always so, I wonder? For instance, has anyone recently bought any locos I've made in the past? 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

I have to say, I was very impressed by the quality of the Buildings when I saw them on Friday Tony. I see you've added some Trees over the weekend and it's looking very good indeed. Far less Brambles and Trees on the embankment in your photo than there is today though, you need to get out there with your clippers, hahah or send Mo up there.  

 

Sometimes No Trains can make a nice shot, and yours certainly does, with just the Truck to show sign's of life.

Thanks Andy,

 

You're most generous with your comments. 

 

I found the making of the individual buildings quite a change from my usual activities. Though they have to 'work' in an overall visual sense, they don't have to work mechanically and they're (probably) as free-lance as one can get on a prototype-based layout.

 

The other 'sign of life' is the little cyclist - made, provided and stuck down by a mate. He's been pedalling for well over a year, and still gets nowhere! Not my mate, just the little cyclist.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Tony Wright

[stewartingram]

The reasoning to me is not the cost and perceived later value of models, but the fact that at the time, I feel I can afford them, and then get the enjoyment from them. (Note - I am not plugging RTR here, just saying models in general, whether they are RTR, chequebook, kit or even scratch materials). I have no time for collector type mentality with pristine boxes. I enjoy the model.

 

Stewart

[micklner]

Tony

 

Historic Inflation calculator show £450 23 years ago is now £ 842.18p , realistically how many people would pay that amount for any model in 4mm today ? . Not me I am afraid. Like everything in this world , one persons value for anything (and pocket depth) will always be different to the next person. 

 

Being realistic you need to compare what was on offer in r.t.r 23 years ago compare to the quality of the above model, r.t.r nowadays in comparison is light years ahead. Model Railways as everything else is consumer led and I doubt if that will ever change. There will always be a place for kits, perhaps mostly unusual subjects that would never be considered for r.t.r, the problem is the manufactures have a habit of copying what is already available as kits and as said far better quality at the same time a lot cheaper !.

[Tony Wright]

Tony

 

Historic Inflation calculator show £450 23 years ago is now £ 842.18p , realistically how many people would pay that amount for any model in 4mm today ? . Not me I am afraid. Like everything in this world , one persons value for anything (and pocket depth) will always be different to the next person. 

 

Being realistic you need to compare what was on offer in r.t.r 23 years ago compare to the quality of the above model, r.t.r nowadays in comparison is light years ahead. Model Railways as everything else is consumer led and I doubt if that will ever change. There will always be a place for kits, perhaps mostly unusual subjects that would never be considered for r.t.r, the problem is the manufactures have a habit of copying what is already available as kits and as said far better quality at the same time a lot cheaper !.

I think you're right Mick. 

 

However, if one really wanted a George the Fifth (and will there ever be one RTR?) and couldn't build it oneself (the generic 'one'), then the only option would be to pay a professional builder. Since top-quality commissioned models aren't cheap (nor should they be), then, even if you wouldn't pay it, a client would have to be looking at over £800.00, or even more. As you say, it's the depth of a pocket which will be the deciding factor. 

 

My main point was one of 'astonishment' at how little such beautiful models now appear to be worth. 

[Headstock]

I do like those tarpaulins on those wagons Andrew. What method do you use for making and weathering them?

 

Evening Tom,

 

I've had a look and can't find the relevant post myself! This thread moves at such a pace that I thought it was about six pages back but no. Anyway, I'm on to sheeting MK3 now due to more research material becoming available and the use of a slightly different material. As a result, the original post is slightly out of date. In the meantime I've been asked if I would like to submit an article on the subject, so I need to save a bit for that.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Headstock

[Headstock]

I do like those tarpaulins on those wagons Andrew. What method do you use for making and weathering them?

 

Tom,

 

my apologies, half of the above post disappeared in some 'Bermuda triangle' computer glitch. I shall post again when I build up the stamina, otherwise, I will be on this thing all night.

[Anglian]

I think you're right Mick. 

 

However, if one really wanted a George the Fifth (and will there ever be one RTR?) and couldn't build it oneself (the generic 'one'), then the only option would be to pay a professional builder. Since top-quality commissioned models aren't cheap (nor should they be), then, even if you wouldn't pay it, a client would have to be looking at over £800.00, or even more. As you say, it's the depth of a pocket which will be the deciding factor. 

 

My main point was one of 'astonishment' at how little such beautiful models now appear to be worth. 

 

 

Do you feel this lack of value is confined to 4mm? My view, based on a probable lack of understanding, is that 7mm models do hold or increase in value. 

[richard i]

Some of the loss in value might stem from the original commissioner is paying for a specific loco in a specific condition at a specific time. They have to bid for the limited number of professional modellers' time to get it built. On the second hand market people are looking around and will take something if it shows up or is close to what they want, they are less sensitive to which loco it is and are more concerned over price as pockets are not as deep, or they would commission themselves.

That is my take on the market forces at work.

Richard

[Guest Brighton_JunctionLNER]

Well, I'm only at the other end of Pennant Hills Road but I take your point!

i think it would be quicker to get to England then go down Pennant Hills road! 

[Tony Wright]

Do you feel this lack of value is confined to 4mm? My view, based on a probable lack of understanding, is that 7mm models do hold or increase in value. 

I'm not entirely sure.

 

During discussions yesterday with my group of splendid visitors, the O Gauge collection of the late David Jenkinson came up. David died some 12 years ago and most (if not all) of his locos went to auction. They had a peerless provenance - many scratch-built by the late Geoff Holt (even one or two Beesons), painted to the very highest-standards by the likes of Larry Goddard and Brian Badger. Yet, in some cases, prices achieved were really low. None was weathered (David didn't believe in that), so that should have maintained their value.

 

In many ways, O Gauge is going down the 4mm path with regard to RTR items. I note Hattons is commissioning O Gauge RTR A3s and A4s for around the £700.00 mark, complete and fully-painted. No kit-equivalent can possibly compete with such 'low' prices, so that will have an impact on resale values of kit-built/scratch-built A3s and A4s. 

 

I think, as one poster has already said, a commissioner of a specific model will/should expect to pay a premium price for a professionally-built/painted item, and that it would be unrealistic for him/her to expect to realise what they paid for it, should it be necessary to sell it on (for whatever reason) afterwards. That said, I still found it staggering how little that George the Fifth sold for. Perversely, it's like saying to a top builder/painter, 'Make me this or that, please, to a very high standard, and you can pay me for the privilege of doing it!'

 

Still, that's market-forces. 

[micklner]

Auctions are always a unknown end result . I have sold lots via ebay some for far more than expected and others for peanuts. It all depends on who looks at the listing and if they want it or not. Look at the bay madness thread for examples of daft bidding !!.

[Clearwater]

I think the same is true of railway paintings. Commissioning Philip Hawkins would cost in the low/mid thousands. When I've seen his work at auction, it's been clearing at the high hundreds, low thousands.

 

Same dynamic - you commission exactly what you want. A professional charges for their time and skill. Not necessarily the case that everyone shares your exact desire to have 7013 on shed at Canton in '57 so resale price lower

 

David

[New Haven Neil]

Paintings are a little different.  I have a motorsport painting by a famous artist - it cost low thousands, directly from the artist.  He died shortly afterwards, and the painting is now professionally valued (and insured!) at 4 times that, because it is unrepeatable - he's dead.  A loco kit however, can be made by one of several professional builders and be as near as dammit exactly the same.  So, repeatable.  However, like Tony, I'm astonished at how little that George went for.

[chris p bacon]

  However, like Tony, I'm astonished at how little that George went for.

It doesn't surprise me at all as It's a diminishing market in all scales. The reason O gauge is more popular is because some of the older generation of modellers/collectors are moving to it from 4mm.

 

None of what I have is thought of as an investment, I have it purely for my own enjoyment as that's what its true value is.

[coachmann]

During discussions yesterday with my group of splendid visitors, the O Gauge collection of the late David Jenkinson came up. David died some 12 years ago and most (if not all) of his locos went to auction. They had a peerless provenance - many scratch-built by the late Geoff Holt (even one or two Beesons), painted to the very highest-standards by the likes of Larry Goddard and Brian Badger. Yet, in some cases, prices achieved were really low. None was weathered (David didn't believe in that), so that should have maintained their value.

 

From what I have seen, many of our coaches are maintaining their value on Ebay. Whether they were produced 40 years ago or 5 years ago doesn't appear to matter. And there are a lot out there too. I was painting roughly 280 a year in addition to loco commissions and the occasional 0 gauge for friends.

 

Regarding the auction of David Jenkinson's locos, Geoff Holt attended and came over to tell me how it had gone afterwards. He was pretty despondent about things and considered the auctioneers and purchasers had no idea what they were dealing with. I can imagine the asking prices today if they were on certain well known 0 gauge dealers websites. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by coachmann

[jwealleans]

Conversely, Larry, a Tourist set you painted from some BSL kits went for just shy of £680 - a lump of money, but that's 8 carriages at £85 each.   For your signed work, that's a bargain in my book.

 

Other than for insurance purposes, though, how concerned should we be about residual value?  We're modellers, not collectors and if I was looking to set money aside for my heirs and successors, I wouldn't be putting it into model railways.

Edited May 4, 2017 by jwealleans

[coachmann]

Conversely, Larry, a Tourist set you painted from some BSL kits went for just shy of £680 - a lump of money, but that's 8 carriages at £85 each.   For your signed work, that's a bargain in my book.

That's why I said 'some coaches'. Tourist stock was in production in the 1980's and the original purchaser probably paid far less than £85 for each coach. According to my 1983 price list, the painting charge was £28.00!

Edited May 4, 2017 by coachmann

[Clive Mortimore]

It doesn't surprise me at all as It's a diminishing market in all scales. The reason O gauge is more popular is because some of the older generation of modellers/collectors are moving to it from 4mm.

 

None of what I have is thought of as an investment, I have it purely for my own enjoyment as that's what its true value is.

I agree with Dave. If I thought my tut was an investment Mrs M would have sold it by now. At the consumer-modeller end of the market surely your collection is for enjoyment, mine is. It is unfortunate that  professionally made and painted models do not always hold their value but with anything it is only as valuable as the market is willing to pay. 

[DougN]

This is all interesting. I can remember the premium paid for Wrenn back I the late 80's and early 90's I still have my first Railway modeller with all the engines I wanted as a teenager. Now these have lost a fair bit of their value and I am not surprised by the reduction in value of the "professionally built" versions. There are the collectors that see the one with the most trains wins vs the modeller who builds his specific trains (which can be RTR) vs the plonk and play vs the "builder" (who just likes making things) I think every one goes through the various stages and then settles on what "floats their boat".

 

Dare I say Tony is the second. I have a bit of the third going at the moment but every so often end up the forth...

 

The value of the items is restricted to the buyer and their perceived value. This has been reduced as time has moved on and the increase in the quality and availability of the trains. Who would have once said so many of today's RTR would be produced? Things like the Peckett, the USA tank etc when compared back to the Wrenn era. Let alone the introduction of the kits we are discussing. Built or unbuilt the skill/effort to get the top notch finish and running was in short supply. Now it tends to be when one of the big 2 or the next 4(?) will produce any in particular item. This is driving down the value.. do you pay XXX or wait a few years and see what comes out?

[Poggy1165]

It may be the case that model railway enthusiasm is a declining demographic, and perhaps especially for the steam era. I fear that apart from really special items - which will always have a niche - a lot of current models will be literally valueless in twenty years. Of course that doesn't matter if you buy models to enjoy, rather than as a investment after the manner of Krugerrands. 

 

A few years ago Hornby O Gauge tinplate was going for silly money, but the bottom seems to have dropped out of that market. Is it because those who used to play with it are getting fewer by the week?

[Tony Wright]

This is all interesting. I can remember the premium paid for Wrenn back I the late 80's and early 90's I still have my first Railway modeller with all the engines I wanted as a teenager. Now these have lost a fair bit of their value and I am not surprised by the reduction in value of the "professionally built" versions. There are the collectors that see the one with the most trains wins vs the modeller who builds his specific trains (which can be RTR) vs the plonk and play vs the "builder" (who just likes making things) I think every one goes through the various stages and then settles on what "floats their boat".

 

Dare I say Tony is the second. I have a bit of the third going at the moment but every so often end up the forth...

 

The value of the items is restricted to the buyer and their perceived value. This has been reduced as time has moved on and the increase in the quality and availability of the trains. Who would have once said so many of today's RTR would be produced? Things like the Peckett, the USA tank etc when compared back to the Wrenn era. Let alone the introduction of the kits we are discussing. Built or unbuilt the skill/effort to get the top notch finish and running was in short supply. Now it tends to be when one of the big 2 or the next 4(?) will produce any in particular item. This is driving down the value.. do you pay XXX or wait a few years and see what comes out?

I'm very happy to be in the second of your categories Doug; many thanks. 

 

The value of model railway items has been aired before and, as you others have quite rightly stated, any value is dependent on what someone else is prepared to pay. In the case of the George the Fifth (cited earlier) my friend was the only bidder at the auction it was sold at, so got it at the reserve price (which still seemed ridiculously low in my opinion). Who knows, were two (or more) interested, it might have got a 'fairer' price. 

 

With regard to Wrenn (and other collectibles), I better put my cards on the table right away. I cannot honestly see how obsolete die-cast or tinplate 'toys' can command the values they do (or did?) compared with superlative, accurate models. Time was when I used to attend the Bassett-Lowke Society meetings near Digswell, as a photographer. My friend, the late Pete Marshall, used to show me this or that tinplate loco from the '30s. In one case, a mint 4-6-0 was worth £20,000! 'What!' As I said, I cannot understand it. Pete used to say he was having the childhood his parents could never afford. 

 

It would seem that the market for such arcane items is diminishing because the number of those who collect it are diminishing - fast! Could the same be true of the likes of Hornby-Dublo and other post-War 'toys'? 

 

To finish off, I'm delighted that so many posters consider the real value of their model railway collections is in their making of things. That, I believe, is priceless. That said, I do try my best to realise the best prices on behalf of bereaved families for the model railway items built by others. 

[coachmann]

Surely old Hornby Dublo and tinplate have less to do with railway modelling and everything to do with collecting and wheeler-dealing. Dinky toys went the same way back in the early 1970's. I knew a chap with a wardrobe full of mint boxes with mint Dinky's at the time and a fleamarket feller that wanted me to restore paintwork on Dinkies so he could make a killing. 

[Tony Wright]

Surely old Hornby Dublo and tinplate have less to do with railway modelling and everything to do with collecting and wheeler-dealing. Dinky toys went the same way back in the early 1970's. I knew a chap with a wardrobe full of mint boxes with mint Dinky's at the time and a fleamarket feller that wanted me to restore paintwork on Dinkies so he could make a killing. 

I'm sure they do, Larry.

 

However, don't forget that years ago David Jenkinson took a Hornby-Dublo 8F, stripped it right down and built an EM chassis for it. It ran on Garsdale Road and was a splendid model. Of course, it ended up looking precious little like its unaltered brethren, but some of the HD models, particularly things like the diesel shunter and Class 20, plus several examples of the later, plastic-bodied wagons made/make splendid starting points for improvements ( I know you said 'old', but they're very old now as well). No doubt, by altering/improving them, it devalues them (at least in the eyes of collectors), but they're certainly examples of railway modelling, or, at least, I believe so. I have a couple of HD vans for which mates built new chassis. They look fine in their rakes of kit-built/more modern RTR freight stock.