Why were no GWR Granges saved from scrap and preserved for the future?

[DavidH]

Where have the other 123 'preserved' standard gauge GWR locomotives come from? I can find a list of 148 in total some of which are from absorbed companies admittedly.

 

There are 38 Kings, Halls and Manors in total for instance.

 

Barry scrapyard.

[Richard E]

Ah but the original post didn't say 'direct' into preservation ...

 

And I know all about Woodhams having spent a year scrambling over, under and inside many of the engines that were there.

 

Anyway records show 95 GWR engines from Barry into preservation so we are still 28 shy ...

 

And all the Kings, Castles and Manors 'seem' to have come from Barry according to the lists - now that I know is wrong.

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

[Pacific231G]

Ah but the original post didn't say 'direct' into preservation ...

 

And I know all about Woodhams having spent a year scrambling over, under and inside many of the engines that were there.

 

Anyway records show 95 GWR engines from Barry into preservation so we are still 28 shy ...

 

And all the Kings, Castles and Manors 'seem' to have come from Barry according to the lists - now that I know is wrong.

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

Did anything get into preservation from other scrappers or was it really just Woodhams?

 

The other source that occurs to me might be locos used as stationary boilers as they seemed to go on for a while after the end of steam.

 

That's btw how my avatar, 231G558 the only surviving Ouest-Etat Pacific in France, came to be saved. It was on the quayside at Dieppe heating bunker oil for ferries from 1968-1972 while all its remaining sisters were being scrapped. The depot staff at Sotteville (Rouen) realising it was the only survivor from of all the roughly 300 West Pacifics- there were none in the national collection- hid it at the back of the shed and eventually bought it for a token one franc from SNCF and restored it. Only having one of these magnificent four cylinder compounds (which included 40 built by North British during WW1) is a bit like having only one survivor in total from all the Kings, Castles, Granges and Manors so, given our relative richness of preserved main line locos, I'm wondering if there were other routes to preservation than being bought out of service, from Woodhams or being in the national collection.

[Kris]

Did anything get into preservation from other scrappers or was it really just Woodhams?

 

Some locos were purchased direct from BR never reaching a scrap yard. Others were sold to other operators for commercial use before being preserved.

[Pacific231G]

Some locos were purchased direct from BR never reaching a scrap yard. Others were sold to other operators for commercial use before being preserved.

Such as industrial operators or the NCB? That's interesting and I'd overlooked it as an indirect route to preservation. I was still wondering though whether Dai Woodham was the only scrappper who sold locos to preservationists or were there others albeit on a smaller scale?

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

I have been reading this thread and thought that a run down on where the various locos that now live at 81E would give a fair representation of how most cases of preservation worked. There are a few oddities in there, Nos. 4079 & 18000 spring instantly to mind, but on the whole it gives a good flavour of the methods used to preserve and enhance the heritage fleet.

 

I hope this is of some interest!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

The Didcot collection - where they came from:

 

No. 1 Bonnie Prince Charlie - Privately purchased pretty much from service.

No. 5 Shannon - Purchased from service on the Wantage Tramway by the GWR, plinthed, and then entered the National Collection from there. The GWS are custodians.

No. 1338 - Purchased Privately and eventually moved to Didcot to become part of the collection

No. 1340 Trojan: Preserved via an extended stay in industrial service.

No. 1363: Preserved from service via a friendly shed master who didn't want to see her cut up - see Little Didcot.

No. 1466: preserved by 4 young lads who wanted one and an autocoach to be saved, then things got out of hand in a big way and the GWS was born - a story for another time!

No. 3650: Via industrial service where it was so badly treated, it might as well have been at Barry - hence the inordinate amount of time taken to restore her.

No. 3738: Barry Loco - joint GWS / GWS member purchase.

No. 3822: Barry Loco - very nearly No. 2807 but this one was in better nick!

No. 4079: Preserved from service after an accident, bought by a bookseller (Mike Higson), sold to a brewer and a builder (Lord Gretton & Sir William McAlpine!), sold to Australian miners(Rio Tinto / Hamersley Iron) and then repatriated in 2000 by the GWS. Another story for another day!

No. 4144: Barry Loco

No. 5051 Earl Bathurst / Drysllwyn Castle: Barry Loco

No. 5322: Barry Loco - first GWR one out!

No. 5572: Barry Loco

No. 5900 Hinderton Hall: Barry Loco

No. 6023 King Edward II: Barry Loco via Harvey's of Bristol

No. 6106: Direct from service - as a result, sole survivor of her type.

No. 6697: Direct from service - only member of her class to do so. The rest were Barry locos.

No. 6998: Direct from service - at the time as the only representative 2 cylinder Western 4-6-0!

No. 7202: Barry Loco - the last straight restoration from scrapyard condition left to finish in the collection.

No. 7808 Cookham Manor: direct from service

 

Replicas / Rebuilds

Firefly: All new.

No. 93: Railmotor turned Autocoach turned Railmotor...

No. 1014 County of Glamorgan: A Barry rebuild (of sorts!).

No. 2999 Lady of Legend: As above!

No. 4709: Much more of a new build but with lots of original bits.

 

Diesels & Other Traction

Railcar No. 22: Direct from storage - definitely a story for when I do my model...

No. DL26: Direct from service - always and industrial loco but close cousin of the BR Class 05

No. 08604: Private purchase direct from storage - bit dilapidated when delivered but revived by volunteers.

No. 18000: Via Switzerland! Another long winded story recounted on the pages of Little Didcot.

[melmerby]

The Didcot collection - where they came from:

 

No. 1340 Trojan: Preserved via an extended stay in industrial service.

 

Used to see 1340 trundling around Alder's paper mill in Tamworth when I used to spot there in the 50s.

Couldn't understand what a "GWR" loco was doing there!

(BTW for anybody that didn't know, Ex Alexander Docks, It was sold by the GWR to Industrial service. Never a BR loco)

 

Keith

[DavidLong]

He was in fact offered a 'Grange', with a fairly low mileage since its most recent General and reportedly in very good condition

 

Loved the concept, Mike. It sounds like something from the pages of Auto Trader:

"Low mileage example, recently serviced, two careful owners, long MOT. Ghia version with air con and cruise control. Fiirst to see will buy"

Except PBW didn't . . .

 

David

[Pacific231G]

Hi All,

 

I have been reading this thread and thought that a run down on where the various locos that now live at 81E would give a fair representation of how most cases of preservation worked. There are a few oddities in there, Nos. 4079 & 18000 spring instantly to mind, but on the whole it gives a good flavour of the methods used to preserve and enhance the heritage fleet.

 

I hope this is of some interest!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

The Didcot collection - where they came from:

 

No. 1 Bonnie Prince Charlie - Privately purchased pretty much from service.

No. 5 Shannon - Purchased from service on the Wantage Tramway by the GWR, plinthed, and then entered the National Collection from there. The GWS are custodians.

No. 1338 - Purchased Privately and eventually moved to Didcot to become part of the collection

No. 1340 Trojan: Preserved via an extended stay in industrial service.

No. 1363: Preserved from service via a friendly shed master who didn't want to see her cut up - see Little Didcot.

No. 1466: preserved by 4 young lads who wanted one and an autocoach to be saved, then things got out of hand in a big way and the GWS was born - a story for another time!

No. 3650: Via industrial service where it was so badly treated, it might as well have been at Barry - hence the inordinate amount of time taken to restore her.

No. 3738: Barry Loco - joint GWS / GWS member purchase.

No. 3822: Barry Loco - very nearly No. 2807 but this one was in better nick!

No. 4079: Preserved from service after an accident, bought by a bookseller (Mike Higson), sold to a brewer and a builder (Lord Gretton & Sir William McAlpine!), sold to Australian miners(Rio Tinto / Hamersley Iron) and then repatriated in 2000 by the GWS. Another story for another day!

No. 4144: Barry Loco

No. 5051 Earl Bathurst / Drysllwyn Castle: Barry Loco

No. 5322: Barry Loco - first GWR one out!

No. 5572: Barry Loco

No. 5900 Hinderton Hall: Barry Loco

No. 6023 King Edward II: Barry Loco via Harvey's of Bristol

No. 6106: Direct from service - as a result, sole survivor of her type.

No. 6697: Direct from service - only member of her class to do so. The rest were Barry locos.

No. 6998: Direct from service - at the time as the only representative 2 cylinder Western 4-6-0!

No. 7202: Barry Loco - the last straight restoration from scrapyard condition left to finish in the collection.

No. 7808 Cookham Manor: direct from service

 

Replicas / Rebuilds

Firefly: All new.

No. 93: Railmotor turned Autocoach turned Railmotor...

No. 1014 County of Glamorgan: A Barry rebuild (of sorts!).

No. 2999 Lady of Legend: As above!

No. 4709: Much more of a new build but with lots of original bits.

 

Diesels & Other Traction

Railcar No. 22: Direct from storage - definitely a story for when I do my model...

No. DL26: Direct from service - always and industrial loco but close cousin of the BR Class 05

No. 08604: Private purchase direct from storage - bit dilapidated when delivered but revived by volunteers.

No. 18000: Via Switzerland! Another long winded story recounted on the pages of Little Didcot.

 

Very interesting thanks for compiling that Castle. So, as many locos at Didcot were purchased out of service as from Barry. Does this mean that specifically GW preservationists actually were more determined and numerous from earlier on than those interested in other railways or would that balance be about the same across most preservation ?

[The Stationmaster]

Very interesting thanks for compiling that Castle. So, as many locos at Didcot were purchased out of service as from Barry. Does this mean that specifically GW preservationists actually were more determined and numerous from earlier on than those interested in other railways or would that balance be about the same across most preservation ?

 

I reckon the balance would be much the same - several LNER design locos were effectively purchased out of service although they might have languished at a works or depot prior to purchase and the same can be said of some SR locos. If anything I suspect LMS locos might be those that least enjoyed this route into operational preservation although a number were purchased in order to be stuffed & mounted

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

I have to agree with Mike that the organisation was fairly good across the board as far as motivation to save steam. One advantage that the GWS had was a very good working relationship with the Management of the Western Region. This relationship was not only instrumental in the myriad of loco and rolling stock purchases for the society but also helped several others with the GWS acting as agents. For example, Mike Higson had tried a couple of times to buy a Black Five and then a Late Castle but it was only when the GWS got involved (and suggested that No. 4079 was the engine to go for) that he got anywhere with it.

 

So I guess what I am saying is that it depended upon who was asking, how they were asking, who they were asking and how receptive the management that looked after that particular region were to preservationists. You also have to remember that this was the birth of the preservation movement, it could have gone either way and I also don't think that the BR board wanted to be seen as even partly responsible for lots of rusting hulks of steam locos bought by well meaning but unsuccessful preservation attempts, littering the countryside. If they had known the results of the preservation industry has had today, I wonder if their attitude might have been different? That can only be conjecture...

 

You also have to remember about why a particular class wasn't preserved, that Barry was a total lottery. If it didn't get grabbed by the preservationists out of service or storage, then it was down to fate as to weather any member of this or that class was saved. The big question to my mind, speaking as a railway historian and not a GWR fan, is why none of the original BR Dub Dee 2-8-0s weren't preserved? An historic wartime design that helped save the nation, a highly numerous class and yet nothing got through the cull. You can argue a case for numerous classes - Granges, Saints & 47XXs just to name a few from GWR territory alone.

 

The real answer of course is simply that they weren't lucky enough! The only reason that the GWS has such a wide variety of GWR motive power is partially down to good planning, partly down to getting in early and partly luck. The gaps in the fleet after reason one and two were exhausted, were filled by Barry and now the stud is a pretty good representative selection of GWR power in the 20th Century.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[The Stationmaster]

According to what I was told Mike Higson walked into Swindon works and told the management there that he would virtually pay whatever they asked for 4079 and he would pay the works to restore it to full working order - and all he got was fairly total disinterest and a polite 'not for sale'.  But Pat Whitehouse was more or less offered 7029 on a plate (an expensive plate) having only expressed limited interest in it - effectively he was asked to buy it (hence the 'Grange' falling by the wayside).  So exactly as 'Castle' has said - it was all a matter of the contact point in BR and the amount of interest that contact was ready or able to show.

 

This carried on - in various ways - until the end of BR (and no doubt goes on now).  For example when in more recent years the GWS had a chance of expanding its site at Didcot it was basically down to a small group of folk within BR as to whether or not that area could be released.  Those of us with the responsibility for saying 'yes' or 'no' duly foregathered at Didcot, looked closely at the site, weighed up the pros and cons, and consulted a few crystal balls etc and made our decision.  If it had been other BR folk involved the decision might just as easily have gone the other way if they had found a reason not to release the land.  I bet it was just the same when it came to letting engines or stock go into presevation or making sure some things went with a pile of spare parts.

[Pacific231G]

Though it certainly didn't seem like it at the time, so far as preservation is concerned we may have been in a sense lucky that the end of steam coincided with the Beeching closures and both happened with indecent haste. That led to a very powerful sense, not just from dedicated enthusiasts, of losing something right now and an urgency about trying to save as much as possible.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

You also have to remember about why a particular class wasn't preserved, that Barry was a total lottery. If it didn't get grabbed by the preservationists out of service or storage, then it was down to fate as to weather any member of this or that class was saved. The big question to my mind, speaking as a railway historian and not a GWR fan, is why none of the original BR Dub Dee 2-8-0s weren't preserved? An historic wartime design that helped save the nation, a highly numerous class and yet nothing got through the cull. You can argue a case for numerous classes - Granges, Saints & 47XXs just to name a few from GWR territory alone.

 

There is a Dub Dee 2-8-0 preserved at Keighley! Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

[pH]

There is a Dub Dee 2-8-0 preserved at Keighley! Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Ah, but this was Castle's question:

 

The big question to my mind, speaking as a railway historian and not a GWR fan, is why none of the original BR Dub Dee 2-8-0s were preserved?

90733 at Keighley was a WD engine which was then sold to the Netherlands State Railways and then to the Swedish State Railways. It never belonged to a British railway - BR WD 2-8-0s were only numbered up to 90732.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I see! Thanks for that. I thought the reason for Castle's question would be along those lines, hence me thinking I might have the wrong end of the stick!

[Castle]

The GWR classes which were preserved at withdrawal are.

Hi Industrial,

 

A couple of preserved from service additions for you (although not steam locos, they were GWR classes)

 

GWR Railcar (original streamlined type) No. 4

GWR Railcar (razor edged type) Nos. 20 & 22

 

I suppose you could sort of argue Sentinel No. 12 at Quainton Road and 18000 at 81E too...

 

Also, we could add the rebuilds and replicas to complete the picture:

 

Non Working

 

North Star

Dean Single

 

Working replicas (* = complete)

 

Firefly Class*

Grange Class

County Class

Saint Class

47XX Class

 

I hope this helps!

 

Hi Chris,

 

PH is correct - 90733 is technically a foreign machine to some extent although to look at it now with all the fantastic work lavished on it and with its new tender you would never know. It was as close to a new build as was possible without actually building new! The guys there really did fill a huge hole in preservation doing what they did there and with a basically unloved in its day and in some ways a forgotten class. All kudos to them for taking it on and highlighting the massive role that our railways had in not only winning the war but in both the rebuilding of peacetime Europe and the dirty and difficult work of keeping industry running in the post war years.

 

Don't worry about asking a question - I am wrong frequently and this is the only way you and I will learn!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[EddieB]

Please, I'm not wishing to decry the conversion carried out to create a representation of a British "dub-dee".  However it's a pity that there is only one survivor of the 2-8-0 type and, as a result, the Swedish modifications to G11 no. 1931 have been consigned to the dustbin of history.  On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of the less numerous 2-10-0 type, here in the UK (three, two ex-Greece), the Netherlands (one) and Greece (possibly five, one in working order).

[buffalo]

...Also, we could add the rebuilds and replicas to complete the picture:

...Working replicas (* = complete)

Iron Duke?

 

Nick

[MarkC]

 

Please, I'm not wishing to decry the conversion carried out to create a representation of a British "dub-dee".  However it's a pity that there is only one survivor of the 2-8-0 type and, as a result, the Swedish modifications to G11 no. 1931 have been consigned to the dustbin of history.  On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of the less numerous 2-10-0 type, here in the UK (three, two ex-Greece), the Netherlands (one) and Greece (possibly five, one in working order).

 

An interesting point. Important to whom, though? If the locomotive meant a lot to Swedish enthusiasts, surely it would have remained there, complete with modifications? From a UK perspective however, restoration to as close to 'UK' spec as possible, as has been done, would seem to be better.

 

Either way, the most important thing is that, as a unique survivor, it HAS been saved and restored to working order, and our thanks should be extended to those who made it happen.

 

Mark

[Phil Bullock]

Hi folks

 

Re locos reaching preservation directly from scrap yards other than Barry - most cut up pretty well on sight, the only example I can think of immediately is 5305 which escaped from Drapers of Hull. If I remember correctly that was a philanthropic donation rather than a purchase - hance it has carried Alderman Draper nameplates in preservation.

 

There may well be a few others but cant immediately bring another to mind

 

None the less by whatever route they arrived we are extremely luck to have the surviving steam power we do - even more amazing that at this distance the total continues to grow with new builds although the costs of keeping restored survivors running dont get any cheaper

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Castle]

Iron Duke?Nick

What's more embarrassing is that its at Didcot now...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[The Stationmaster]

What's more embarrassing is that its at Didcot now...

All the best,

Castle

 

So maybe you could turn it back into a Hunslet (=J94) austerity tank engine - the sort of radical transformation Didcot seems to specialise in?    

[Castle]

So maybe you could turn it back into a Hunslet (=J94) austerity tank engine - the sort of radical transformation Didcot seems to specialise in?    

Cheeky!

 

I suggested to the 1014 crew the other day that they could build a nice Hall out of what they had there and they told me to make a Star or The Great Bear out of No. 4079.

 

I call that a draw...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[pH]

Did anything get into preservation from other scrappers or was it really just Woodhams?

There's a previous topic which discusses this - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44722-scrapping-br-steam-locos/?hl=68095&do=findComment&comment=488978