Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[Dunsignalling]

As you say John, I have less than ten Hornby wagons, simply because they don't do what I, a transition modeller need for my stock boxes.

 

I'll ask the question again - how many GW shunter trucks would you buy, compared to bogie bolster "E"s, or Anchor mount tanks, or Ironstone hoppers ?

Just the one, Phil; and that will get coupled to a Bachmann 57xx, 03 and 08!

 

There are plenty of wagons they could be doing without treading on each other's toes. Here are just a few that would float my boat:

 

1. Some non-generic tanks (the most prototypical one currently available r-t-r from anybody dates from 1970s Airfix and is a relatively uncommon type; some nice ordinary anchor mount ones would be brilliant. This is a subject that isn't well covered even in terms of kits (David Geen is the only maker that springs to mind and his seem to be older designs).

 

2. Cattle wagons for each of the big four plus the "LMS body on LNER underframe" early BR one.

 

3. "Solid" sheeted 5-planks - these are sold in kit form for 7mm scale and look far better than anything I've ever managed to portray.

 

4. A correctly proportioned BR Grain wagon - just take a look at the N Gauge ones.......

 

5. As has been mentioned, a 16t GWR Toad - these were more common on branch lines than their bigger brothers.

 

One plea, though (to both Hornby and Bachmann). Whatever you decide to do, if there is a choice between a design that has already been done (in r-t-r and/or kit-form) and one that hasn't, PLEASE pick the latter. Yes Hornby, I am talking Fish vans here!

 

John (with apologies for wish-listing)

[iL Dottore]

I think you miss the point it's more whether I'll buy one or none rather than 10 or 5. Post £100 takes it past the discretionary spend limit I've imposed on myself

Fair point, and for many available discretionary spending will set an upper limit per item. But I have noticed that there are those who do buy larger quantities if the price is right (i.e. low enough).

 

But regardless of the reason for the "non-spending" (so to speak) it does define the UK market - at least in the eyes of Hornby - hence "design clever" and other approaches to producing a relatively low cost (and perhaps also low spec) model.

 

But, to play advocatus diabolus for a moment, wouldn't the hobby be better served by building up to a quality, forcing modellers to re-assess how they plan and budget for their layouts? Perhaps such an approach of building UP to a spec, letting the price be driven by the quality, would have avoided the production of some of the more recent lemons that have been put out? [Devil's advocate mode OFF].

[iL Dottore]

I have a definite impression that Hornby aren't actually that interested in steam era goods stock...

To be honest, I'm not sure what era does get Hornby's undivided attention, if any. I sympathise with Simon Kohler's situation, Hornby is such a broad church, with "toy trains" at one end and top spec "railway models" at the other, so whatever the programme it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

 

To be brutally frank, outside the railway modelling fraternity, goods stock will never have the the appeal that a top link loco will have or have the immediacy of a current TOC McTrain in technicolor vinyls. I don't think there are many little boys (or girls for that matter) who -when having a day out at a preserved railway - would prefer to inspect goods stock instead of watching the locos.

 

One approach that I think would be nice, is for Hornby to create a yearly "train pack" to a given theme ("merry go round" coal train, West Country broccoli express [or whatever these high speed perishable goods trains were called], etc.), where each component is a new model to a decent spec and all the components fit together appropriately (unlike many of their train sets which seem to be a mish-mash of components). In this way, perhaps Hornby could please both the train set market AND the railway modeller market with one stroke?

[GWRLMSLNER]

One area that has surprised me about Hornby is the lack of investment in things they already have. For example, their excellent Stanier Class 5. This is sold as a Railroad version - better than not using the old tools if they can make a profit from them and then there is the 'new model' which is excellent. I run an LMS version BUT would buy at least two more if they produced a Caprotti or outside Stephenson link motion version. There are also the various top feed and dome positions etc. Given the fact that all LMS and many BR modellers need the class 5 this is a market that could be profitable for them. The B1 in the same classification gives less choices so surely Hornby could have got more out of the Stanier before going for the B1 or at least as a parallel development.

 

John

[S.A.C Martin]

Is it worth Hornby's R&D and money to tool up a Caprotti or the sole example of the Stephenson link motion Black Five though? I'm not convinced they would sell in great numbers compared to a Thompson B1, which every modeller of ex-LNER lines needs - there were 450 of them, spread all over the system, after all, and there were very few Caprotti Black Fives.

 

Hornby have actually done most of the major Black Five variants in terms of dome position and top feed over the years for their top of the range version in any event.

 

I think a lot of people would have been happy with the Bachmann B1 and some modelling, but in fairness to Hornby, their B1 is so much better, it sells. It clearly must be doing this: this is the third year in a row in the catalogue with another variant, where other models have disappeared off the face of the earth. 

[ThaneofFife]

One approach that I think would be nice, is for Hornby to create a yearly "train pack" to a given theme ("merry go round" coal train, West Country broccoli express [or whatever these high speed perishable goods trains were called], etc.), where each component is a new model to a decent spec and all the components fit together appropriately (unlike many of their train sets which seem to be a mish-mash of components). In this way, perhaps Hornby could please both the train set market AND the railway modeller market with one stroke?

Maybe, provided they then allowed you to buy further wagons or coaches separately otherwise the set in many cases becomes a white elephant if you cant build up a decent train as funds allow.  This is one of Hornbys downfalls.

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Is it worth Hornby's R&D and money to tool up a Caprotti or the sole example of the Stephenson link motion Black Five though?

Well, they are making two different one-offs this year (Duke of Gloucester and Cock O' the North), both of which are completely new models. In theory a modification to the existing Black 5 should cost less, but of course the 5s don't have the cachet of the big, named express locos, meaning probably lower sales, so it's a bit swings and roundabouts...

[Nimbus]

I suspect for you it was de Havillands, or Handley Page at a pinch.

 

I'll narrow it down a bit for you!

My first school was in 'The home of Shredded Wheat and Blower Bentleys', and was directly under the airfield's approach. All sorts of strange new shapes in the sky. One with very dangly undercarriage doors. "That was the N.A. 39" advised Dad later.

 

The Nim

[Dunsignalling]

I think you miss the point it's more whether I'll buy one or none rather than 10 or 5. Post £100 takes it past the discretionary spend limit I've imposed on myself

The problem with imposing a limit per item on ones spending is that items you really like may exceed it whilst those that come in under it may be of less interest. This is OK if you don't have a preferred area/period theme and just want something new to run but is likely to result in a rather eclectic and (dare I say it) unprototypical collection in the longer term.

 

I witnessed a father and son discussion in a model shop a few years back. The lad was into LMS and wanted a Hornby Duchess but was about £20 short of the price. His Dad (obviously not a modeller himself) pointed out that he had enough for a Lima Class 50! I almost cheered when the boy decided to keep saving until he had enough for his Duchess (back then there was a good chance there would still be some).

 

All spending on a hobby is discretionary so none of us actually NEED a new loco (ever). I prefer, like that lad, to hang on for what I really want though I have the adult advantage of a credit card to defer/spread the cost of items I might otherwise miss out on. 

 

A self-imposed monthly modelling budget works for me; when I undershoot (occasionally, I don't spend anything at all!), the surplus is rolled over. If I sell any models on, the proceeds are added in. I opened a savings account for the purpose but a coffee jar will do.

 

When something I want comes along, I usually already have it covered. There are many models I wouldn't pay (say) £130 for but others that I would; my criteria are:

 

(1) Do I want it enough to spend that much on? 

(2) Does the quality/detail on offer represent value for money?

(3) Do I have the funds put by?

 

Three yesses generate an immediate purchase, two require a bit more thought and only one, I will almost certainly give it a miss.

 

John

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

All spending on a hobby is discretionary so none of us actually NEED a new loco (ever).

I beg to differ - I need Hornby's new P2! 

[coachmann]

The Caprotti Black Five is a missing link in LMR motive power, and whilst the real things were ugly beasts, they make tasty models.....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

One area that has surprised me about Hornby is the lack of investment in things they already have. For example, their excellent Stanier Class 5. ... The B1 in the same classification gives less choices so surely Hornby could have got more out of the Stanier before going for the B1 or at least as a parallel development.

 

I have heard the Black 5 described by a model shop owner as a 'grudge' purchase. His expressed view of the problem was that the black 5 looks much like the other main line taper boiler types, which come in red or green, with names and all that.  Compare that to the LNER system and its successors, where the utility loco looks much different from the front line power so there is a contrast: here's a rusty Bugeye Sprite, there's a sleek and shiny AC, Alvis, Allard, Aston Martin or Vauxhall.

[Oldddudders]

I beg to differ - I need Hornby's new P2! 

Many years ago, I recall a US modeller of some reputation saying on a video that the means to achieving a layout that looked right was to ensure it was full of everyday items, not the one-off specials. DOG and P2 may have lots of presence - but are hard to work into an everyday scenario without an awful lot of mundane power around them to balance things a little.

 

I hate to admit it, but as said American luminary made his point, the camera picked up Santa Fe #50 and 50A on his layout - that railroad's only pre-war Alco passenger diesels......

[Guest Phil]

Many years ago, I recall a US modeller of some reputation saying on a video that the means to achieving a layout that looked right was to ensure it was full of everyday items, not the one-off specials. DOG and P2 may have lots of presence - but are hard to work into an everyday scenario without an awful lot of mundane power around them to balance things a little.

 

I hate to admit it, but as said American luminary made his point, the camera picked up Santa Fe #50 and 50A on his layout - that railroad's only pre-war Alco passenger diesels......

So much for the credibility of the Americano then !!!

 

Although the hobby consists of people from all walks of life and all attitudes, I think a good proportion of people want to model the typical rather than the atypical. This is why the Great Eastern crowd want a J15, the GN want a J21, the LMS the "Stanier crab", the Scottish the "419" and the GWR the 54xx / 74xx.

 

Many modellers probably prefer passenger trains to freight so passenger locos are important, but if you stood on Hitchin platform you'd not see more than a single P2 everyday, and your MPD layouts would only host it for a while after it was coaled watered and prepared for the road.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think DoG and the P2 are great choices, but the "mundane", marketed properly must have as good a chance as the "big wheeler". In this case I also believe Hornby might have made the right choice with the Hall, having thought about it a little more. If the range is to be improved then the Hall will be a good long term investment, but for heaven's sake, let's see some of what goes behind the tender - some nice BR(WR) non corridors would be fab, along with a different pannier to the Bachmann offering.   

[Dunsignalling]

I have heard the Black 5 described by a model shop owner as a 'grudge' purchase. His expressed view of the problem was that the black 5 looks much like the other main line taper boiler types, which come in red or green, with names and all that.  Compare that to the LNER system and its successors, where the utility loco looks much different from the front line power so there is a contrast: here's a rusty Bugeye Sprite, there's a sleek and shiny AC, Alvis, Allard, Aston Martin or Vauxhall.

Some of us actually like to see a loco in lined-out black, so long as it is reasonably clean.  I reckon both the Duchesses and Royal Scots looked their best in the post-war LMS black livery, though the lining was bolder than the LNWR style adopted by BR.

 

The latter actually suits most locos very well though the cab/splasher treatment on some older types was a bit dubious.

 

Even GWR types that had been unlined green (which I always think looks unfinished) suddenly looked more 'important' once B.R repainted them. (Reaches for Tin hat)

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

 If the range is to be improved then the Hall will be a good long term investment, but for heaven's sake, let's see some of what goes behind the tender - some nice BR(WR) non corridors would be fab, along with a different pannier to the Bachmann offering.   

Mind you, in the early sixties, when the WR cleared out most non-corridor stock from main line stopping services, they received a fair quantity of cascaded Gresley corridors to help plug the gaps...........

[edcayton]

I always thought that the Ivatt Caprotti 5's with the high running plate looked impressive from photo's (never saw a real one).

 

Ed

[ThaneofFife]

Having seen the 2-BIL up close today in Modelzone it looks very nice and if the price has been pegged back from a potentially hefty increase because of the design clever element as opposed to having it made in the usual hi-fi way then on initial viewing the models detail is still pretty decent for all but the most ardent rivet counter and hopefully the initial doubts of design clever will quickly fade.

[S.A.C Martin]

Well, they are making two different one-offs this year (Duke of Gloucester and Cock O' the North), both of which are completely new models. In theory a modification to the existing Black 5 should cost less, but of course the 5s don't have the cachet of the big, named express locos, meaning probably lower sales, so it's a bit swings and roundabouts...

 

I would argue neither the Duke nor the P2 are comparable projects to the Caprotti 5 or Stephenson link motion black 5. Those two locomotives have an altogether different profile which extends beyond that the modeller needs/wants. 

 

I think Phil's point about the mundane is spot on actually, but neither the Caprotti 5 nor Stephenson link motion black 5 are of the "mundane" variety. They were rare beasts in reality compared to other variations in the same class. 

 

However there are some big gaps in RTR which two out of the three major manufacturers are addressing, in terms of steam locomotives. Suburban rolling stock (Hornby) and the everyday goods locomotives (Bachmann). My gut feeling is that there is room for both a J15 and a new B12, as well as a new Pannier tank and a more definitive model of the 43xx. I can't speak for Southern or Midland regions, but if it's mundane and has a reasonable number in a class, I could see it being done sometime soon.

 

After all - the Thompson B1, L1 and O1 are hardly top link locomotives, and yet they are all in Hornby's stable currently. There's hope yet for the mundane I would say.

[Ozexpatriate]

One approach that I think would be nice, is for Hornby to create a yearly "train pack" to a given theme ("merry go round" coal train, West Country broccoli express [or whatever these high speed perishable goods trains were called], etc.), where each component is a new model to a decent spec and all the components fit together appropriately (unlike many of their train sets which seem to be a mish-mash of components).

I love both this idea and the idea of a "West Country broccoli express".

 

I can imagine it now ... Hornby introduces the "the Flying Kipper" train pack - a rake of nondescript weathered fish vans with unique running numbers. Just the thing budding Fat Controllers can threaten to punish their naughty Henry with.

 

But seriously,

 

US manufacturers do this sort of thing all the time.

[Ian Hargrave]

I always thought that the Ivatt Caprotti 5's with the high running plate looked impressive from photo's (never saw a real one).

 

Ed

And for the ultimate Black 5....44686/7,with Caprotti valve gear and Skefko roller bearings. Did sterling work on the North Wales coast line.Was it 6A or 6G? Double chimney included.

[Dunsignalling]

Having seen the 2-BIL up close today in Modelzone it looks very nice and if the price has been pegged back from a potentially hefty increase because of the design clever element as opposed to having it made in the usual hi-fi way then on initial viewing the models detail is still pretty decent for all but the most ardent rivet counter and hopefully the initial doubts of design clever will quickly fade.

There is a  big worry surrounding Hornby's current Big Idea that (I think) hasn't yet been aired.

 

Production costs in China will continue to increase and, if Hornby fail to find somewhere cheaper to get their manufacturing done, Design Clever may only hold things back for two or three years.

 

Will we have actually gained much if, come 2017, we are paying (or refusing to pay) prices for simplified products that might have been asked for something better by 2014?  Sooner or later, we will all have to get used to the idea of getting four locos for £600 rather than six.

 

Do the vociferous "I won't pay more than £100 for a loco" brigade actually buy very many at that price and how will they react if/when they are only offered 0-6-0s below that level? 

 

There are interesting times ahead. 

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

There is a  big worry surrounding Hornby's current Big Idea that (I think) hasn't yet been aired.

 

Production costs in China will continue to increase and, if Hornby fail to find somewhere cheaper to get their manufacturing done, Design Clever may only hold things back for two or three years.

 

Will we have actually gained much if, come 2017, we are paying (or refusing to pay) prices for simplified products that might have been asked for something better by 2014?  Sooner or later, we will all have to get used to the idea of getting four locos for £600 rather than six.

 

Do the vociferous "I won't pay more than £100 for a loco" brigade actually buy very many at that price and how will they react if/when they are only offered 0-6-0s below that level? 

 

There are interesting times ahead. 

 

John

Apparently the real 'looming problem' in China is going to be shortage of labour - which is why some manufacturing companies are already moving production out of the country.  An article in one of the newspapers recently suggested that labour shortage will start to bite Chinese manufacturing in around 2020 although the initial effect will inevitably be rather uneven in respect of which sectors it is likely to affect.

[Oldddudders]

And for the ultimate Black 5....44686/7,with Caprotti valve gear and Skefko roller bearings. Did sterling work on the North Wales coast line.Was it 6A or 6G? Double chimney included.

I only saw Caprotti 44756 - and am sure I didn't realise what a rare bird it was at the time. Just another Black 5, probably.

[robmcg]

Apparently the real 'looming problem' in China is going to be shortage of labour - which is why some manufacturing companies are already moving production out of the country.  An article in one of the newspapers recently suggested that labour shortage will start to bite Chinese manufacturing in around 2020 although the initial effect will inevitably be rather uneven in respect of which sectors it is likely to affect.

 

From what I read (and hear) the issues around labour in China are and have been to do with migration from rural subsistence to urban or semi-rural manufacturing, and entail a lot of 'management' for want of a better word, primarily from the Chinese government at all levels.  There are many other inter-related issues, human rights, fair pay, corruption, environment, rise-of-middle-class, consumerism, population control, which affect the price we pay for manufactured goods,  but in writing this I'm sure many readers comprehend these things probably better than myself.

 

I think Hornby are doing the right things with broadening their supply base and looking to reduce labour costs, while retaining committment to quality... at least while S K is there, and as far as I can tell the new Board has similar views.

 

Overall I am optomistic. I don't expect a return to such as 2007 though, with N15s and Scot/Patriots at quite low prices and beautifully made.

 

Rob

 

Rob