Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[frobisher]

For those who always praise Bachmann and condemn Hornby on this subject remember Bachmann decided it wasn't worth retooling the B1 and V2 bodies when the chassis was updated.

To be fair on Bachmann here, I suspect those were two they felt nervous about doing completely new models for. They'd promised a rolling programme of upgrades to existing split chassis models and these were announced along with the A4 (no screams to do an upgraded model there though..?). Hornby had put a marker against the B17 way back (even if it's only just getting to market in the new future) so I'd be understandable nervous if I was Bachmann about being gazumpped there given the large degree of comonality with the B1 (and they would have been right if that was the case). There have been persistant rumours that Hornby have been sniffing around the V2 for a long time so again probably best avoided. Bachmann clearly felt on safer ground with the Modified Hall (though perhaps the new Design Clever Hall from Hornby might become a Modified Hall in time..?) and Class 40.

[micklner]

. For those who always praise Bachmann and condemn Hornby on this subject remember Bachmann decided it wasn't worth retooling the B1 and V2 bodies when the chassis was updated.

 

Jeremy

  Understandable but how many B1 and V2's are they actually selling ? Seems Bachmann are trying to force peoples hand by refusing to sell the new chassis seperately. Why ? because they know one would bother buying a complete loco when you can get the bodies via ebay for a low price. Or just upgarde what they already have.

Hornby B1 is light years ahead overall just look at the Tender let alone the Loco. I am more than happy to pay the extra for the Hornby version (which is not a lot) . As for the V2 (old chassis) I owned I was appaled with overall quality and resold asap. A  new chassis for something at least ten years out of date = no chance, same goes for their A4 too.

[Jol Wilkinson]

  Understandable but how many B1 and V2's are they actually selling ? Seems Bachmann are trying to force peoples hand by refusing to sell the new chassis seperately. Why ? because they know one would bother buying a complete loco when you can get the bodies via ebay for a low price. Or just upgarde what they already have.

Hornby B1 is light years ahead overall just look at the Tender let alone the Loco. I am more than happy to pay the extra for the Hornby version (which is not a lot) . As for the V2 (old chassis) I owned I was appaled with overall quality and resold asap. A  new chassis for something at least ten years out of date = no chance, same goes for their A4 too.

 

Might it not just be that Bachmann have decided to produce a quantity of complete models, rather than take a gamble on how many seperate chassis they might sell. They have no control over the s/h market and the availability of bodies via ebay or elsewhere. Have you also considered that if the chassis were available, then perhaps the price of the bodies might go up, as there is now more use/demand for them.

 

As for the quality of the other products you list, surely the market will find its own level and people won't buy the models if they aren't up to scratch. The price from the retailers would then drop and you might reconsider them as good value.

[micklner]

      The gamble Bachmann has taken is that people will still buy out of date models as my earlier question. I personally have no idea if they sell or not. The only one they are pushing is the A4 at the moment.

      Very shortsighted to not sell the new chassis(s) on its own. It may push up secondhand prices of bodies ?., I am sure the then owners would be very happy !! . A lot of people who own Bachmann A4, B1 & V2 would be happy to upgrade their models. Not as many would be willing to buy a replacement  Loco.

     For whatever reason sales by manafactures are a closely guarded secret other than when they announce limited editions. Then at least we know how many exist.

[Budgie]

A lot of people who own Bachmann A4, B1 & V2 would be happy to upgrade their models. Not as many would be willing to buy a replacement loco.

How are they going to upgrade if the bodies they have will not fit onto the upgraded chassis?

[micklner]

Do some modelling

[newbryford]

How are they going to upgrade if the bodies they have will not fit onto the upgraded chassis?

 

Do like Vitrains did and make the replacement chassis fit the original (Lima) moulding.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[James]

For those who always praise Bachmann and condemn Hornby on this subject remember Bachmann decided it wasn't worth retooling the B1 and V2 bodies when the chassis was updated.

Bachmann B1 body, albeit with a little work...

 

http://www.scalefour.org/bradwell/images/b1chassis.jpg

 

Maybe praise should be given to the body after all?

[coachmann]

The Bachmann B1 was regarded as an okay model until recently. Are Hornby loco chassis available separately? As for Bachy selling out of date models, I just had to laugh..... Hornby would never do that....

[iL Dottore]

.... but there are still a lot of British consumers that are only interested in buying the cheapest product....

And that IS the problem with the UK market in a Nutshell. Certainly there are many modellers who are happy to pay "continental prices for continental quality", but it would seem there are not enough of such to drive the market (certainly Hornby seems to have come to that conclusion and gone "down market").

 

Observing from afar, I've concluded that this UK market reluctance to "pay a fair price for a quality product" has seriously hindered the development of British Railway modelling. It's interesting to note that many of the recent advancements in our hobby (the development of DCC instead of analogue controllers, static grass & applicator instead of dyed teddy bear fur, etc) has come from "Johnny foreigner".

 

I've also frequently noted posts along the lines of "that Hornmann McChuff 2-4-2 is far too expensive at £120, but if it were £60 I'd buy 10...)! So why not pay for a better product and only buy 5?

 

In all, I think that the problem many of us will be confronting is not that Hornby hasn't sussed out the UK market, but that with "design clever" Horby has sussed out the UK market just too well...

 

As an old Prof of mine said "high quality, large numbers, low price - you can only have two out of three"

[PaulRhB]

And that IS the problem with the UK market in a Nutshell. Certainly there are many modellers who are happy to pay "continental prices for continental quality", but it would seem there are not enough of such to drive the market (certainly Hornby seems to have come to that conclusion and gone "down market").

But there is also the perception that the continental market pays a premium if you compare even pre design clever Hornby and something like Kernows Beattie tank to an equivalent continental model you might well pay 50% more. Is it the high number of collectors who display models that push that or smaller production runs than the UK?

I'd say we pay comparable prices to the US and get comparable quality which is amazing considering market size. Many manufacturers now have different level ranges for high end and train set budgets. Piko, Atlas, Athearn, LGB and Hornby are examples and those who favour operation often plug for the cheaper models to afford more stock and accept that most of the time it's viewed from sufficient distance that the detail discrepancy doesn't matter.

I bought Athearn Genesis models and their hoppers with separate handrails then bulked out the 40 wagon train with the budget Atlas Trainman range hoppers. When you photograph it you tend to have the loco and first few wagons in shot so you don't notice the moulded handrails 10 wagons back.

Hornby is a multi national which answers to shareholders who want maximum profit so they are going to pander to the mass end of the market compared to something like Bemo who still produce models to the whim of the owner, as with their new Om range. Is a Bemo Om van really worth four times as much as a Bachmann auto hopper or Hornby Seacow? It's all down to what you are prepared to pay for your passion.

 

Observing from afar, I've concluded that this UK market reluctance to "pay a fair price for a quality product" has seriously hindered the development of British Railway modelling. It's interesting to note that many of the recent advancements in our hobby (the development of DCC instead of analogue controllers, static grass & applicator instead of dyed teddy bear fur, etc) has come from "Johnny foreigner".

 

Yes there is a lot of vociferous shouting but someone must be buying them too so I tend to think its a minority that shout louder than their market weight

I agree on the development side to an extent but the rate of major new technology is pretty much what you listed and UK modellers and manufacturers have added some remarkable products to that field too. Static grass wasn't really new as Noch had been making their sheets of it for years, you have to feel sorry for them that they were copied by others quickly and then some smart chaps crashed the price using fly swat technology including in the uk. Shades of China's rise engineering cheaper mass market solutions?

With DCC one of the best and cheapest universal pc interface / programmers is a cottage industry product from the UK, Sprog, so why did the big boys charge so much when freeware can drive these units? I reckon it's to get back the initial investment in sound units and then they have understandably maximised the profit. Now there are increasing numbers of cheaper options do the electronics are coming down in price in response. On the continent, especially Europe, there isn't any manufacturer producing top end models at lower prices even now much production is Chinese so is there a gentlemans agreement?

LGB reduced prices to compete with Bachmann large scale then over extended themselves with too many new toolings at a time that the recession bit and German banks no longer protected their own due to globalisation. Certainly I was suspicious when much of Marklins, ( with their investment bank owner), LGB production went Chinese and the prices raised to 'collector' levels, more worryingly we saw a total stop of development with new models being just new liveries. Now more production is moving back to Europe totally new models are starting to be developed, figure that one out! Did the investment bank owners drive to maximise profit drive away the huge market that had developed while the prices were considered value for money? Maybe Hornby watched and learnt and they see this as the way to survive the continuing market difficulties?

 

As an old Prof of mine said "high quality, large numbers, low price - you can only have two out of three"

I'll have quality and low price please

[micklner]

The Bachmann B1 was regarded as an okay model until recently. Are Hornby loco chassis available separately? As for Bachy selling out of date models, I just had to laugh..... Hornby would never do that....

Hornby arent producing new chassis for out of date models are they Hornby still sell (or try too)  old style items and prices refect that fact + Railroad as a budget range.

 

The only reason Bachmann chassis were mentioned was because they did sell the old non DCC versions .

[Guest jim s-w]

As an old Prof of mine said "high quality, large numbers, low price - you can only have two out of three"

 

As paul hinted at, that doesnt actually work at all though does it? It kinda works if you say you must have all three.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[iL Dottore]

As paul hinted at, that doesnt actually work at all though does it? It kinda works if you say you must have all three. Cheers Jim

Actually the logic is:

• High Quality + Large Numbers = NOT Low Cost
• Large Numbers + Low Cost = NOT High Quality
• High Quality + Low Cost = NOT Large Numbers

Where "low cost" is total paid out.

 

So for the first bullet point you could say "I'll buy 120 Bottles (large numbers) of Roederer Crystal Champagne (high quality), but I will spend £16,800 (= NOT Low Cost)"

 

For the second buller point you could say "I'll buy 40 boxes of 20 budget burgers/box (large numbers) at £1 a box (Low Cost) but I won't be surprised if the burgers are 25% Badger meat (= NOT High Quality)"

 

For the final bullet point you could say "I'll buy a bespoke suit (High Quality) for the same price as 3 polyester of-the-shelf suits (low cost [total paid out]) but I'll only be buying one (= NOT Large Numbers)"

 

I believe that this logic is applicable in may different areas of our lives (perhaps with some tweaking to take into account economies of scale) and certainly for model railways.

 

iD

[BlackRat]

And of course 'Low price' is subjective, depending on the size of your wallet......(or the depth of your pockets!)

[Guest Belgian]

 as has often been pointed out the British market seems to expect Rolls Royce quality at 'Ford' prices.

 

I don't think that's exactly the case: I think we want Rolls-Royce quality at the lowest possible price - we don't expect it to be 'Ford' quality (although it is noticeable that Ford quality is pretty high these days in order to compete with VW etc), but we don't want to pay more than we need to, that's all.

 

JE

[edcayton]

 

Observing from afar, I've concluded that this UK market reluctance to "pay a fair price for a quality product" has seriously hindered the development of British Railway modelling. It's interesting to note that many of the recent advancements in our hobby (the development of DCC instead of analogue controllers, static grass & applicator instead of dyed teddy bear fur, etc) has come from "Johnny foreigner".

 

 

 

 

I disagree. As far as I can see the main requirement to build a high-quality European layout is a fat wallet (there are notable exceptions), which is why so many look the same. I would argue that the development of Brirish railway modelling has led to some absolutely superb work.

 

Ed

[Dunsignalling]

Hornby arent producing new chassis for out of date models are they Hornby still sell (or try too)  old style items and prices refect that fact + Railroad as a budget range.

 

The only reason Bachmann chassis were mentioned was because they did sell the old non DCC versions .

They stopped doing so about four years ago, although there has been some old stock floating around since.

 

I regularly operate on a friend's ER layout and have always thought the old Bachmann B1 looks perfectly OK with a bit of detailing and weathering. The running quality is another matter and I have never come across a good one in that respect.

 

It may be that the new chassis won't fit the old body without a lot of work, like Hornby's County. I bought a damaged one with the idea of dropping the chassis under my detailed but no-longer-running Dapol example. Ho. Ho! The two bodyshells only look the same!

 

Required items: 1. A hacksaw. 2, A big file. 3. A whole evening and an hour of the next. 4. Much profanity.

 

John

[ThaneofFife]

Wrong.  

 

You certainly can have 3 out of 3 (low price, large numbers and high quality).  They tend to come in blue boxes though 

[iL Dottore]

I disagree. As far as I can see the main requirement to build a high-quality European layout is a fat wallet (there are notable exceptions), which is why so many look the same. I would argue that the development of Brirish railway modelling has led to some absolutely superb work.

 

Ed

Fair Point - when you consider Railway Modelling in the gesamt, whereas the discussion in this thread is on items that are purchased/produced by major manufacturers. Indeed there is a paradox inasmuch the components of a continental layout are very high quality RTR but overall the layout is frequently "samey" and often disappoints, In comparison a UK Railway may have disappointing RTR components, but overall the layout is frequently unique and often superb.

 

Mind you, if I were to pay CHF400+ (about £280) for a Rhätische Bahn model, I'd be reluctant to go at it the way I would do so with a Hornby or Bachmann offering.

 

iD

[Guest jim s-w]

Where "low cost" is total paid out.

 

That's the important bit. But if you take it as unit price (which is the context of this discussion) it doesn't work.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Oldddudders]

My own experience of European models, made in China, suggests that the Hornby brand (in this case Electrotren) compares pretty well with the niche brands. Admittedly there was some discounting - ok more than 50% on occasions - that made the Electrotren items very good value, but they work well out of the box in my experience. Perhaps that is another consideration? Earlier in the thread LS Models were being touted as a good example of the European standard, but both items I've bought - one new, one secondhand - have been very poor performers due to lousy pickups. A third item, brand new, was sent back due to having cracked window glass, and when the dealer examined another model with his agent, they found that to be the same, so quality control is just as hit-and miss. Mistral Models - 4 examples - were fine, except for a broken drive-shaft on one, which taught me not to try to fix Chinese things......

 

Prices? Electrotren, DCC-ready RRP about 190 euros (say £150 at the time). LS Models about the same. Mistral, definitely not DCC-ready about 30 euros more, DCC onboard about 50 euros more - but they do have passengers inside!

 

My belief is that the quality of the best UK products I have bought - e.g. Hornby T9s and Maunsells, Bachmann C Class, is very much the equal of European market models, but rather cheaper in real terms.

[The Stationmaster]

The interesting thing as far as Hornby seem to be concerned is that they look to be aiming towards the 'large numbers' part of the list albeit with something which is not exactly 'low price' but is definitely 'lower price'.  Logically such a change in business emphasis would suggest that either they hope to raise their 'higher prices for higher quality' even higher or they are not selling everything they make at their existing price/quality mix.  Which leaves me wondering how many B1s, B17s and O1s are still sitting on shop shelves or in the warehouse?

 

Clearly the 'higher quality fidelity/higher price' mix won't necessarily work with coaching stock if Hornby are looking for a large mass market although at smaller numbers it seems to have worked with at least some of their present range.

 

At the end if the day it seems to boil down to which market areas they see themselves as targetting (i.e. which they consider offers the best return) and adjusting 'quality' against volume against price for that (or those) target market(s), oh and getting the best retail price they can if what has happened so far with the 2 BIL is any indication of the way things are going.

[coachmann]

Hornby arent producing new chassis for out of date models are they Hornby still sell (or try too)  old style items and prices refect that fact + Railroad as a budget range.

 

The only reason Bachmann chassis were mentioned was because they did sell the old non DCC versions .

Hornby is producing new chassis for out of date models, some of whose origins go back to Lima or Airfix, when replacing the old Tender-Drives. I don't think Hornby's prices reflect a budget range either. The Compound, D49 and County 'Railroad' characatures came in at around £70.00, while the same money would buy a new 21st Century detailed loco from Bachmann.

 

As we know, Hornby does have some excellent locos especially those done for the East Coast, but it also has plenty of 'good but could do better' locos as well. The incorrect 4000 gallon Stanier Tender is still being produced, the Stanier 2-6-4T doesn't have bevel-rim wheels, the Fowler 4F is barely altered Airfix. I don't think such short-cuts can be laid at Bachmanns door except perhaps for not upgrading the V2 body, but whats good for the goose is good for the gander at times surely?

[micklner]

LMS area obviuosly is not my area, so no idea on the detail of the West side .

 

I agree the LNER is well served by both companies at the moment. The B1 body is good , its tender is not anywhere as good, it as also still sits behind the J39 too. I wont mention their A4 again whoops