bluebottle Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I don't know – you start off trying to say something nice about the GWR, and finish up trying to chew hospital food with toothless gums. Truly G. J. Churchward is a jealous God! Gordon Hasty edit to correct blasphemous typos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I appear to have been presented with a fait accomplis. The missus has spotted that one of these undoubtedly fine locomotives was named Princess Charlotte...and survived into my modelling period of 1948-50. Question is, where do I find out more about this particular locomotive? Is there something like Yeadon's I should be reading... I had always been led to believe (most likely wrongly) that GWR fans had it easiest with the standardisation of many parts between locomotives, it appears not on first glance for cylinders, steam pipes, cab and tender types with this type... Bringing myself back to my chosen patch rapidly, obviously as an LNER fan I am waiting on the P2 with bated breath. I had an interesting discussion with a friend about tender types, A2/2 conversions and a few other bits and bobs. The main crux of the matter, is that Hornby if they were "designing clever" could in theory use their P2 wheelbase for classes A2/2 and A2/3 by doing something similar to that done with the Merchant Navy/Battle of Britain and D49/Compound/County locomotives in that the chassis could be designed to take both wheelbases 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 by designing infill pieces at the front end to allow for fitting of a bogie or a pony truck. They already have, I am told, the correct A4 type tenders for some of the A2/2s, but would require a new tender top for the A2/3s. I know "design clever" is more about using moulded detail where it's appropriate, amongst other things, but it occurs to me (and to others too, it seems) that Hornby have an opportunity to steal a march on their rival by designing their P2 to become a Pacific...much like the originals did... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 26, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2013 I had always been led to believe (most likely wrongly) that GWR fans had it easiest with the standardisation of many parts between locomotives, it appears not on first glance for cylinders, steam pipes, cab and tender types with this type...Withdrawal of the Stars took place over an unusually protracted period of 25 years from 1932 to 1957. A number were also rebuilt into Castles between the 1920s and 1940s. Serviceable parts 'liberated' from early withdrawals and the rebuilding process would undoubtedly have been recycled to keep the survivors in traffic (especially through WW2), producing locos with 'interesting' mixtures of early, late and modified features. In this respect, GWR practice would (untypically) have been no different to that of other railway companies. There may well be a comprehensive class history out there but I know of none having been published. However, the announcement of the Hornby model may flush one out. Otherwise the best place to start enquiring would be the GWS. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 My question would be, who is going to feel like they got their money's worth? The Star purchaser, or the Heavy Tank purchaser? I'm leaning towards the Star purchaser quite strongly at the minute. For a model anywhere between £10 and £20 more expensive than the Heavy Tanks, you get separate door darts, sprung buffers, lots of separately fitted detail and some incredible livery application. I appreciate it's the only game in town for an RTR Star or a Heavy Tank, but the comparison between their respective specifications and similar prices couldn't be more stark.Pricing is at least as much related to 'what the market will bear' as production costs. My guess is that these models come from two different factories. Something about the pre-production shots of the heavy tanks reminds me of the 'new' 28xx - and this is more than their GWR kinship. Perhaps I'm imagining this or just reinforcing my own hypothesis. I suspect that the Star will come from Kader's manufacturing services unit, like the B17 (despite some observations that "Sanda Kan" is no longer in operation) and the version sold by STEAM is at higher prices. Without any inside knowledge, I remain convinced that part of the impetus for 'design clever' is related to ramping up volumes in the new factory. I also guess that most if not all the 'design clever' models are likely made in the new factory. (I apologize for my speculation here but I think it fits the data we have.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 There may well be a comprehensive class history out there but I know of none having been published. However, the announcement of the Hornby model may flush one out. Otherwise the best place to start enquiring would be the GWS. I don't know how comprehensive a history you are looking for, but this is a nice starting point for some basic data for each locomotive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 26, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2013 My question would be, who is going to feel like they got their money's worth? The Star purchaser, or the Heavy Tank purchaser? I'm leaning towards the Star purchaser quite strongly at the minute. For a model anywhere between £10 and £20 more expensive than the Heavy Tanks, you get separate door darts, sprung buffers, lots of separately fitted detail and some incredible livery application. I appreciate it's the only game in town for an RTR Star or a Heavy Tank, but the comparison between their respective specifications and similar prices couldn't be more stark. The Star purchaser also gets a tender! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I appear to have been presented with a fait accomplis. The missus has spotted that one of these undoubtedly fine locomotives was named Princess Charlotte...and survived into my modelling period of 1948-50. Question is, where do I find out more about this particular locomotive? Is there something like Yeadon's I should be reading... I had always been led to believe (most likely wrongly) that GWR fans had it easiest with the standardisation of many parts between locomotives, it appears not on first glance for cylinders, steam pipes, cab and tender types with this type... Bringing myself back to my chosen patch rapidly, obviously as an LNER fan I am waiting on the P2 with bated breath. I had an interesting discussion with a friend about tender types, A2/2 conversions and a few other bits and bobs. The main crux of the matter, is that Hornby if they were "designing clever" could in theory use their P2 wheelbase for classes A2/2 and A2/3 by doing something similar to that done with the Merchant Navy/Battle of Britain and D49/Compound/County locomotives in that the chassis could be designed to take both wheelbases 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 by designing infill pieces at the front end to allow for fitting of a bogie or a pony truck. They already have, I am told, the correct A4 type tenders for some of the A2/2s, but would require a new tender top for the A2/3s. I know "design clever" is more about using moulded detail where it's appropriate, amongst other things, but it occurs to me (and to others too, it seems) that Hornby have an opportunity to steal a march on their rival by designing their P2 to become a Pacific...much like the originals did... 60501, 60502 towed A3 highsided tenders. The others A4 non corridor I think. And as a you and I know the wheel base twixt the A2/2 an the A2/3 is just about the same too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I appear to have been presented with a fait accomplis. The missus has spotted that one of these undoubtedly fine locomotives was named Princess Charlotte...and survived into my modelling period of 1948-50. Question is, where do I find out more about this particular locomotive? Is there something like Yeadon's I should be reading... The relevant RCTS volume is the usual starting point for any GWR engine, in this case part 8, Modern Passenger Classes. However, you're in luck because we have already discussed much of the variation in the class in this topic. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 26, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2013 As someone who's lucky to be able to buy both the Star and 72xx I hadn't thought about the price comparison on the two until Simon mentioned it.Is it also that Hornby will likely sell more Stars that the price reflects thisfor a tender engine.A good comparison would be the Hornby vs Bachmann Hall price I think. Another good book on the Stars is O S Nocks 1970s edition although I don't have it myself.Bit of a minefield though due to Hornby doing theirs with outside steampipes. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GWR-Stars-Castles-Kings-Part-2-book-by-O-S-Nock-C1970-/130857427122?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item1e77b5e0b2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Thanks gents for your advice on investigating the Star Class. The relevant RCTS volume is the usual starting point for any GWR engine, in this case part 8, Modern Passenger Classes. However, you're in luck because we have already discussed much of the variation in the class in this topic. Nick Ta Nick, very useful thread that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 A2/3 s had rivetted A2 type Tenders, Bachmann already have that and a easily modified A2 chassis = no brainer announced next month Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiftyFourA Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 2013 sounds good from Hornby, as long as the supply problems get sorted. As I have a foot in 2 camps (Southern & LNER - blame Bullied!) I can't wait for the 2BiL - I have one on order and the reviews only make great reading, but what about some of the ancillary stuff like 3rd rail hardware as Peco stuff is hard to get nowadays up north. The P2 is very interesting but I agree with coachman that we could now do with some 0-6-0 workhorses - like a NE J27 for example (like the preserved one). Thanks anyway Simon - 2014 has alot to live up to for Hornby now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiftyFourA Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 As far as I am concerned this set of releases is going to hurt my wallet big time in a way that previous years haven't. The Sentinel will be a winner for the industrial hardcore amongst us and is a pleasant change from reliveried 06s, and with the 2 BIL just outside my office window, I shall have to indulge. The Star and Titfield Thunderbolt sets are just lovely and make me want to go and pre-order things already! An excellent year, and I know others who will fall instantly for the Duke and P2, the former is particularly spectacular. I'll show you MY 2Bil one Tuesday when I get delivery from DLPG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 26, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2013 Pricing is at least as much related to 'what the market will bear' as production costs. My guess is that these models come from two different factories. Something about the pre-production shots of the heavy tanks reminds me of the 'new' 28xx - and this is more than their GWR kinship. Perhaps I'm imagining this or just reinforcing my own hypothesis. I suspect that the Star will come from Kader's manufacturing services unit, like the B17 (despite some observations that "Sanda Kan" is no longer in operation) and the version sold by STEAM is at higher prices. Without any inside knowledge, I remain convinced that part of the impetus for 'design clever' is related to ramping up volumes in the new factory. I also guess that most if not all the 'design clever' models are likely made in the new factory. (I apologize for my speculation here but I think it fits the data we have.) The pricing of the Steam 'Star' is very much market driven so I understand as a consequence of Hornby marketing very similar locos (i.e variants on the class theme) at the same time. The Steam version of the 'Star' seen 'in the plastic' has very much the quality image and presence of some other recent Hornby locos and Ozex's suspicions could well be on the money; presumably the cooking versions sold by Hornby will be made in the same factory as they share a common basis in many respects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I appear to have been presented with a fait accomplis. The missus has spotted that one of these undoubtedly fine locomotives was named Princess Charlotte...and survived into my modelling period of 1948-50. Question is, where do I find out more about this particular locomotive? Is there something like Yeadon's I should be reading. Simon, Reference to brdatabase.info shows 4054 withdrawn from Laira in Feb. 1952, having been fitted with elbow steampipes in October 1945. I would suggest that the Hornby BR model with 4000gal. tender would be the best bet for a renumber/name. Cheers, Peter C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I appear to have been presented with a fait accomplis. The missus has spotted that one of these undoubtedly fine locomotives was named Princess Charlotte...and survived into my modelling period of 1948-50. Question is, where do I find out more about this particular locomotive? Is there something like Yeadon's I should be reading... 4054 previous allocations. Began and ended working days at Plymouth Laira 1914 - Laira 1920 - Wolverhampton 1923 - Old Oak 1929 - Old Oak 1938 - Taunton 1942 - Taunton 1946 - Exeter 1947 - Exeter Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bedding Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Further to the earlier postings concerning the 29xx class, I have to say that if our friends at Bachby were to produce one of the earlier types of "Saint" (with the straight drop to the front frame), it would jump to the front of my wishlist with immediate effect. To my eye, they were Edwardian elegance at its very, very best. I would like matching rolling stock, but that would not matter quite so much; the loco would sit in its own glass case above my desk. Adams and Urie normally top my wishlist, Drummond a gnatswhisker close third, but in this one exception I have to admit the Oscar goes to Swindon. 2908 please. Ouch. PB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted February 27, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2013 Whoops - in my defence, I have been looking at Didcot's Lady of Legend on the inter web this morning...! In my original edit, I called it a saint and had named Lode Star by name...these GWR 4-6-0s all look alike... (just kidding!) Now rectified. I do think that GWR fans are going to get an excellent model there. A friend who is a GWR fan gave me an update from Model Rail Scotland. "Frothing" is a fair term in this instance, but then he has always wanted an RTR model of a Star. Very happy to see that he's happy, and I am sure he won't be alone in that. My question would be, who is going to feel like they got their money's worth? The Star purchaser, or the Heavy Tank purchaser? I'm leaning towards the Star purchaser quite strongly at the minute. For a model anywhere between £10 and £20 more expensive than the Heavy Tanks, you get separate door darts, sprung buffers, lots of separately fitted detail and some incredible livery application. I appreciate it's the only game in town for an RTR Star or a Heavy Tank, but the comparison between their respective specifications and similar prices couldn't be more stark. Tell me the difference between a Black 5 and a Jubilee, now that's hard to do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi-Jiff Kenobi Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Tell me the difference between a Black 5 and a Jubilee, now that's hard to do One's black and the other one... oh, hang on a minute. Er, one's named and the other... no, that's not right either. Erm, the Jubilee class had a proper name, the Black 5s were referred to by nickname? Do I win a prize? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Seemples.....If Jubilee is approaching it is simple to spot its boiler handrail is mid-boiler (at waist) ....Black Five boiler handrail is much higher up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Tell me the difference between a Black 5 and a Jubilee, now that's hard to do High running plate on Black 5, and no splashers (Jubilee slightly lower, with splashers). Jubilees have a curved infill at the corner of the "shoulder" of the running plate when viewed side on, Black Fives have none, ending flat when viewed side on. Centre cylinder protrusion for the Jubilee, none on the Black Five. Shorter smokebox on Black Five. That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's loads more in addition to Larry's observation regarding the handrails. A friend of mine used to tell me they were chalk and cheese despite looking broadly similar in outline. I never used to think that way until I started reading up on them. They are very different beasts despite the shared parentage. Perhaps not too different from the vagaries between GWR 4-6-0s in some respects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 One has splashers the other doesn't. One has the front end of the piston block under the smokebox door and the other doesn't. All of one class were named (on the aforementioned splashers), whereas only a handful of the other class carried em. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted February 27, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2013 One has splashers the other doesn't. One has the front end of the piston block under the smokebox door and the other doesn't. All of one class were named (on the aforementioned splashers), whereas only a handful of the other class carried em. Names don't really count as differences, because they are applied after the fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 The boiler handrail was offered as instant identification, which is why I mentioned it, the rest being detail that wouldn't be noted ordinarilly especially if the train is a mile away across fields on a misty day! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Isnt the boiler more tapered on a Jubilee with a smaller smokebox and taller chimney? The cylinders look deeper on the Black 5 and the reversing gear looks completely different while not only the front handrail but the side one is much higher. Its similar to those who think all early AC electrics looked the same - IE similar at a glance but not really anything like each other if you have ever learned how to really look at something.CheersJim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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