Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[Ron Ron Ron]

With discussion involving the so called "design clever" forming a fairly large part of this epic thread; it's interesting to note that there isn't any evidence of this dubious "dumbing down" involving Hornby's International product lines.

 

The reports from this weeks Nuremburg Toy Fair, show that the quest for ever more detailed and accurate RTR models continues apace and all manufacturers are pursuing this course; including Hornby with its International brands.

 

Is the British market a "special case" with its own tendency towards low budget and resulting low quality RTR; or are they taking people for mugs?

[Guest jim s-w]

Is the British market a "special case" with its own tendency towards low budget and resulting low quality RTR; or are they taking people for mugs?

Maybe the European markets are better at communicating what they want as a clear message. I mean look at this thread, despite its size could Hornby really draw any conclusions at all about what the British modeller actually wants or what they will find acceptable? Perhaps if everyone turned round early on and said "im sorry Simon K but design clever sounds more like design stupid and its not what we want at all" you could draw a conclusion but with people taking the stance of its better than nothing, we've never had it better or dont pick on the manufacturers (bless 'em) perhaps the message is low buget/low quality is absolutely fine with us?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Mickey

 

You might already know my thoughts on the hobby needs kids arguement

 

As for blaming RMweb, Id say of the modellers I know less than 10% are actually bothered with online forums etc.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[James]

You might already know my thoughts on the hobby needs kids arguement

The hobby of railway enthusiasm needs the young to become interested - that initial interest is, I think, very important -

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-future-of-hobby.html

 

Railway modelling really needs the higher disposable income that age brings - if younger modellers are participating then that's great, but it won't provide the funds the hobby requires on its own.

[The Stationmaster]

With discussion involving the so called "design clever" forming a fairly large part of this epic thread; it's interesting to note that there isn't any evidence of this dubious "dumbing down" involving Hornby's International product lines.

 

The reports from this weeks Nuremburg Toy Fair, show that the quest for ever more detailed and accurate RTR models continues apace and all manufacturers are pursuing this course; including Hornby with its International brands.

 

Is the British market a "special case" with its own tendency towards low budget and resulting low quality RTR; or are they taking people for mugs?

As I put on the other thread I think it's quite simply a case of you pay for what you get.  

 

I'm quite prepared to pay that bit extra for that bit extra - if it's up to scratch and is what I think it is worth in value to me.  I was busily chopping moulded handrails off Hornby (or were they Triang, or Triang-Hornby?) locos 40 years ago and bushing the chassis to take Romford axles & wheels.  I suppose I could go back to that again (if I could see the d*mned things in sufficient close-up to cut to the right depth in the right place) but I'd expect something cheap to do it on - I don't fancy making a mess of a £100 loco so I'm happy to pay the few tens of £s extra to avoid that.

 

But having said that I'm quite happy to - still - chop off moulded buffer housings or accept moulded door handles on coaching stock.  And do people want low budget - well time will tell but that approach didn't do Lima much good in the longer term did it?

[James]

You might already know my thoughts on the hobby needs kids arguement

And the work of a young modeller -

 

http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/what-have-i-created.html

[coachmann]

This is the Hornby thread and thoughts naturally turn to products Hornby, but it really matters not if this toy company dumbs down. Lest folk have forgotten, Bachmann still exists and is the first port of call for many a railway modeller. Bachy is the hobbyists manufacturer.

[Fenman]

This is the Hornby thread and thoughts naturally turn to products Hornby, but it really matters not if this toy company dumbs down. Lest folk have forgotten, Bachmann still exists and is the first port of call for many a railway modeller. Bachy is the hobbyists manufacturer.

But I'm not sure it helps to call Bachmann the "hobbyists manufacturer", and nor am I certain that it is true for many of us. If I model Southern steam, what exactly has Bachmann got to offer me? There's a rather nice ex-SECR C Class. There's a Lord Nelson that's seen better days and an N Class that, next to Hornby's products, looks distinctly second-rate. In coaching stock there are some nice-looking NPCCS items promised (not here yet though), and a range of Bulleid coaches that looks long in the teeth to me. And that's it. The C Class is rather lovely, but the rest looks like pretty thin pickings by anyone's standards. And doesn't hold a candle to what Hornby has been doing.

 

For SR modellers, it would matter a hell of a lot if, after Schools and Q1s and Maunsell coaching stock and everything else, that Hornby now "dumbed down". And it's only a couple of years ago that Bachmann saw fit to produce a catalogue without a single SR steam loco in it. Not one.

 

 

 

Paul

[Coxswain]

James, you are talknig about children.... not these mythical Teenagers that may be "The future".... Im sure they dont exist, at all or if they do they are the kids no one talks to at skool....

 

Teenagers do "cool things" often anti social in th extreme, bit cool to them- that is just what they are there for

In my scout group we have 2 ((known) out of 40) scouts with train sets, neither of whom I'd put into the 'no friends loser' category. the younger one has modern image layout in the "south of England" which sounds like a model (not seen it). The older scout has what I think can only be described as a Hornby train set. Its often not until I get home and look online that I can work out what his latest train is. He thinks purely in Hornby train set terms.

[Coach bogie]

James, you are talknig about children.... not these mythical Teenagers that may be "The future".... Im sure they dont exist, at all or if they do they are the kids no one talks to at skool....

 

Teenagers do "cool things" often anti social in th extreme, bit cool to them- that is just what they are there for

 

And some of them think playing trains is cool. My youngest even brought his entire class home as part of a school project. (three H&S site visits from school staff that lasted several hours or was it just playing trains?).

 

He likes his modern image but also runs steam that he knows. He has a Hornby Brit that is all but abandoned as everytime he runs it some other piece of fine detail falls off and frustrates hime. He was bought a Hornby 'Tornado' for his birthday and he loves it - far more robust and nothing falls off. He also reads these pages and the talk of dumbing down.

 

To him all this fine, extra detail he classifies as 'dumbing up'. Out of the mouths of babes....

 

Mike Wiltshire

[RJS1977]

.  And do people want low budget - well time will tell but that approach didn't do Lima much good in the longer term did it?

 

I think one of the major factors in Lima's demise was changes in the exchange rate which meant they were no longer low-budget....

 

Was in a model shop yesterday and heard someone asking about the costs of "Spencer" and "Edward". "£99.88 each but we sell them for £89.99" said the proprietor. "I'll go away and think about it", says the customer - i.e. polite way of saying "no way at that price!"

 

And let's face it - if nobody wanted low budget, all the secondhand dealers would go out of business pretty sharpish!

[Dick Turpin]

I'm with others who have suggested that a lot of the more troublesome really fine detail bits should come unattached in the plastic bag for the purchaser to fit.At least this would make it easier to attach more robust etched, lost wax or even home made scratch built parts in place of those made from that really thin 'snapmaster' plastic.

 

At the very least if you've attached it yourself you are going to know where it came from when it falls off and you have to re-attach it.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....At least this would make it easier to attach more robust etched, lost wax or even home made scratch built parts in place of those made from that really thin 'snapmaster' plastic......

 

Therein lies one of the problems with a lot of the fitted detail applied to British outline RTR. It has been largely done on the cheap using flimsy plastic parts, rather than using more robust materials.

The UK market has been short changed again.

[Dunsignalling]

With discussion involving the so called "design clever" forming a fairly large part of this epic thread; it's interesting to note that there isn't any evidence of this dubious "dumbing down" involving Hornby's International product lines.

 

The reports from this weeks Nuremburg Toy Fair, show that the quest for ever more detailed and accurate RTR models continues apace and all manufacturers are pursuing this course; including Hornby with its International brands.

 

Is the British market a "special case" with its own tendency towards low budget and resulting low quality RTR; or are they taking people for mugs?

There is certainly a vociferous section of opinion that makes it sound that way and it appears that Hornby take it seriously.

 

If it is the case, railway modellers are different from most British consumers who seem very keen on overrated 'premium' brands.

[Dunsignalling]

Therein lies one of the problems with a lot of the fitted detail applied to British outline RTR. It has been largely done on the cheap using flimsy plastic parts, rather than using more robust materials.

The UK market has been short changed again.

So true.

 

Brassmasters has cleverly exploited this by making various parts of their loco kits available in packs allowing modellers to replace the flimsy bits of r-t-r LMS locos in metal as well as adding some that's not there.

 

This is a more sophisticated take on what Crownline used to do and I am a bit surprised that nobody has done something similar for SR/GWR/LNER/BR models.

 

John 

[Downendian]

I've been meandering in and out of this very large thread.

Here's my general conclusions

1. A section of us do not want premium range Hornby models to have moulded on handrails etc, even with the spin of "design clever", which for a number of us is the precise opposite.

2. A number of us are prepared to pay even higher prices than current for increased levels of detailing.

3. A number of us are happy with the less detailed "railroad range" (myself included) permitting some old school superdetailing projects. However the price differential between the premium and railroad ranges needs to be wider. I'd also be happy if spares were more accessible - I'm always scouring eBay for chassis units and bits and pieces for my projects.

4. Railroad (especially) diesels need better power units (especially at the price offered), and clearly Hornby appear to have learnt from the VEP experience and the 2-BIL and Brighton Belle show road to recovery.

 

That is I think our broad church of opinion some I'm sure disagreeing with one or more (or all) the above.

 

Neil

[ThaneofFife]

 

4. Railroad (especially) diesels need better power units (especially at the price offered), and clearly Hornby appear to have learnt from the VEP experience and the 2-BIL and Brighton Belle show road to recovery.

 

 

I'll give you No. 4 - but would add AC electrics to that too.

 

I would gladly go out and buy a current bodyshell offering of 86, 87 or 90 without lights or flush glazing or sprung buffers etc if only underneath they had a good powerful weighty twin bogie drive chassis like some of the other premium Hornby diesels such as HST, Class 56 et al........I can take it from there then if I want to add my own bells and whistles.  At least youd have a good base to model with. 

 

That said, I dare say that Hornby would sooner just retool a complete model rather than do only half a job with just the new "oily bits" on old bodyshells. 

['CHARD]

 

3. A number of us are happy with the less detailed "railroad range" (myself included) permitting some old school superdetailing projects. However the price differential between the premium and railroad ranges needs to be wider. I'd also be happy if spares were more accessible - I'm always scouring eBay for chassis units and bits and pieces for my projects.

 

And I'll go with your 3.  Back in the day you could harvest every last nut bolt and washer at Modelspares of Burnley (for example), but since the China move, one of the downsides has been the paucity of spares supply.  That's one thing Bachmann are far better at just now.

[Dunsignalling]

2. A number of us are prepared to pay even higher prices than current for increased levels of detailing.

 

4. Hornby appear to have learnt from the VEP experience and the 2-BIL and Brighton Belle show road to recovery.

 

Neil

2. Just nice robust metal parts replacing small short-lived plastic bits would justify this even at the best current levels of detail.

 

4. Hornby should really not have got themselves into the position where they needed to recover. Like any other manufacturer they should have bought, closely examined and dismantled their competitors' products so they know what they are up against. 

 

John 

[45568]

Awright gents, anyone want to start a book on this 'fred going to 90,92,95, one hunnerd pages???

Best odds given...I've got Useless Waffle at 7/4 on, Neveraditsogood at 10/8, and BrashersBill at 2/1.

Get your tickets 'ere!!

Byebye,

PC

[Oldddudders]

Awright gents, anyone want to start a book on this 'fred going to 90,92,95, one hunnerd pages???

Best odds given...I've got Useless Waffle at 7/4 on, Neveraditsogood at 10/8, and BrashersBill at 2/1.

Get your tickets 'ere!!

Byebye,

PC

Surprised Oozalum Bird is such long odds!

[Jol Wilkinson]

There is certainly a vociferous section of opinion that makes it sound that way and it appears that Hornby take it seriously.

 

If it is the case, railway modellers are different from most British consumers who seem very keen on overrated 'premium' brands.

 

John,

 

absolutely correct for the "must be seen with" consumer products such as Iphones, Nike trainers, etc. but there are still a lot of British consumers that are only interested in buying the cheapest product.

 

Perhaps the modeller/collector is unusual in telling the brand owner how to run their business, what to produce, to what standards and still wanting it at the lowest price.

 

Jol

[JeremyC]

With discussion involving the so called "design clever" forming a fairly large part of this epic thread; it's interesting to note that there isn't any evidence of this dubious "dumbing down" involving Hornby's International product lines.

 

The reports from this weeks Nuremburg Toy Fair, show that the quest for ever more detailed and accurate RTR models continues apace and all manufacturers are pursuing this course; including Hornby with its International brands.

 

Is the British market a "special case" with its own tendency towards low budget and resulting low quality RTR; or are they taking people for mugs?

 

No, I don't think they're taking people for mugs, as has often been pointed out the British market seems to expect Rolls Royce quality at 'Ford' prices. Generally prices for Continental models are much higher and I suspect Hornby have decided for the vast majority of their UK market price is the most important factor and are now working to that rather than detail levels. If you want Continental quality expect to pay Continental prices and before anybody says it, I don't think the American market can be used for a comparison as it's much bigger, therefore costs can be spread over larger production runs.

 

Comparisons are made with Bachmann, while they probably have the advantage in that their manufacturing is 'in house' I wonder if they will eventually start to simplify detail as costs rise and resistance of the British consumer to pay higher prices hardens. For those who always praise Bachmann and condemn Hornby on this subject remember Bachmann decided it wasn't worth retooling the B1 and V2 bodies when the chassis was updated.

 

Jeremy

[Multiple identity account 2]

I'll give you No. 4 - but would add AC electrics to that too.

 

I would gladly go out and buy a current bodyshell offering of 86, 87 or 90 without lights or flush glazing or sprung buffers etc if only underneath they had a good powerful weighty twin bogie drive chassis like some of the other premium Hornby diesels such as HST, Class 56 et al........I can take it from there then if I want to add my own bells and whistles.  At least youd have a good base to model with. 

 

That said, I dare say that Hornby would sooner just retool a complete model rather than do only half a job with just the new "oily bits" on old bodyshells. 

Can't agree with you more on that... Atleast a mechanism like what was used on the Limby Class 67 should be used for now. And I'm tired of seeing small upgrades at a time. By the time the entire loco is upgraded the cost might be just as much as re-tooling it.

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

For those who always praise Bachmann and condemn Hornby on this subject remember Bachmann decided it wasn't worth retooling the... ...V2 bodies when the chassis was updated.

Yes, and I still haven't forgiven them!