bluebottle Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Tell me the difference between a Black 5 and a Jubilee, now that's hard to do Simple - the side sheets of the Jubilee's cab have three more rivets in them than do those of the Black 5. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 27, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2013 Pricing is at least as much related to 'what the market will bear' as production costs. However, if "what the market will stand" doesn't return the level of profit that a manufacturer thinks it should, there are two choices. Move the business into a market that does or reduce production costs to obtain the desired yield from prices the market will stand. (which I reckon is exactly what is behind both Design Clever and Hornby's evident desire to increase direct selling). Hornby is a company that produces various items including model railways. Many of those highly placed at Margate these days are said to be new to and unfamiliar with that business sector and presumably view it purely in economic terms. To put it crudely, they want Hornby Hobbies to generate profits and, if Hornby Railways is judged not to contribute its fair share, investment can and will be redirected to parts of the group that do. Hornby recently burned their fingers in a transient market that turned out to be much smaller than expected but all will be forgotten as soon as those who witnessed it have moved on. The same process leads to the banking industry attempting suicide at roughly twenty year intervals and there are plenty of companies that nowadays have little or no involvement in what was once their core business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Tell me the difference between a Black 5 and a Jubilee, now that's hard to do One has splashers the other doesn't. One has the front end of the piston block under the smokebox door and the other doesn't. All of one class were named (on the aforementioned splashers), whereas only a handful of the other class carried em. Names don't really count as differences, because they are applied after the fact. You said tell you the difference between a black five and a Jube. Well as far as I'm concerned, if a loco has nameplates over splashers, it's different to a loco with no splashers to bolt nameplates too. And yes, I know a small number of black fives did have splashers, but that would be splitting hairs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Bull Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Tell me the difference between a Black 5 and a Jubilee, now that's hard to do Incredible. Quite incredible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adams442T Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Hmmmmm. Can someone please tell me the difference between The Flying Scotsman and The Green Arrow? I mean they've both got L.N.E.R. on the tenders and they're both green................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi-Jiff Kenobi Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I'm on safer ground here: Scotsman is a 4-6-2, Green Arrow is a 2-6-2, that's the most obvious. Other differences are less noticeable, but just as significant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2013 I'm on safer ground here: Scotsman is a 4-6-2, Green Arrow is a 2-6-2, that's the most obvious. Other differences are less noticeable, but just as significant. A very reasonable assessment, but I'm still not sure why the original question, re Black 5s etc, was asked in this thread - it has remarkably little to do with the thread title. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Not only that but these questions are probably from blokes that can give you rhyme and verse on the differences between a plain 'ol Class 47 and an ETH-fitted 47, and are often the first to inform the rest of us when the cab window of a newly announced model is 0.05mm too low! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2013 Hmmmmm. Can someone please tell me the difference between The Flying Scotsman and The Green Arrow? I mean they've both got L.N.E.R. on the tenders and they're both green................... The basic difference is that there IS enough money on the planet to get Green Arrow working properly................ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebottle Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 A very reasonable assessment, but I'm still not sure why the original question, re Black 5s etc, was asked in this thread - it has remarkably little to do with the thread title. It's all Simon's fault (post 2357); having got confused between “Saint” and “Star”, he compounded his offence by saying “these GWR 4-6-0s all look alike”! No point in correcting the original post, saying "(just kidding!)" or attaching a smiley, such lèse-majesté will provoke outrage and a retaliatory strike at the LMS. Gordon (Edit to tweak punctuation) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 The basic difference is that there IS enough money on the planet to get Green Arrow working properly................ If it was privately conserved then perhaps that would be done. Fortunately it is preserved by the State, via its National Railway Museum, and the historically very important cast cylinder block cannot be repaired without destroying it as a historical artefact. There are thousands of locomotives lying around this Island in various states of preservation and conservation. This one is in the national collection and should remain stuffed. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2013 If it was privately conserved then perhaps that would be done. Fortunately it is preserved by the State, via its National Railway Museum, and the historically very important cast cylinder block cannot be repaired without destroying it as a historical artefact. There are thousands of locomotives lying around this Island in various states of preservation and conservation. This one is in the national collection and should remain stuffed. Paul Bartlett I have no intrinsic objection to any loco being stuffed and mounted and this situation does at least demonstrate that something was learned from what happened to Lord Nelson. It would be pointless to revisit the arguments for and against replacing the cylinder block. My intention was to contrast the way 4771 has been managed with the other loco which (presumably) no longer contains enough material of historic significance to justify similar treatment. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Is Lord Nelson stuffed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebottle Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Is Lord Nelson stuffed? No, pickled in brandy. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2013 Is Lord Nelson stuffed? Best ask Emma, Lady Hamilton, who almost certainly was! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 My intention was to contrast the way 4771 has been managed with the other loco which (presumably) no longer contains enough material of historic significance to justify similar treatment. John John, how much of any locomotive in the national collection is actually "original?" I know for a fact that the cylinder monobloc in 4771 is not the one it was originally fitted with, nor is its boiler and vast swathes of other components. It is not a locomotive which contains wholly original, as built, components. It's as much the same as 4472 or any other working, preserved locomotive on that basis. No locomotive built, and working on a daily basis through the steam age, is going to be made up of all the same parts they had when they were first built. It's an absolute fallacy to suggest this is so. In any event, the identity of a steam locomotive is not defined by the originality of its constituent parts. The difference with 4771 to 4472 is that, being the last V2, it is also therefore the last locomotive of its type with such a cylinder monobloc. The importance of conserving this unique component is that which outstrips bringing the locomotive back into service, and rightly so. 4472 on the other hand, has spare cylinders of the correct type. I must ask what mainline locomotive do you think is wholly original? Is 6201 Princess Elizabeth less important because she has continued to be overhauled and rebuilt after the steam era? What about the numerous Castles and Halls on the mainline? Bulleid Pacifics? So much is made of the originality and provenance of components. It's frankly a falsehood and a very poor argument which people play on without understanding the way overhauls worked on railways, and in particular the LNER in the case of 4472. I admit freely that a few years ago, being very much younger and more naive, I played into the whole Steam Beano sensationalism too. A bit of research and talking to people who actually know what they're talking about put me right. It's in vogue to decry and rubbish the last remaining non streamlined Gresley Pacific, without either knowing all of the facts or understanding fully the history of this locomotive, particularly its preservation years. It's time to stop attacking it and start backing it again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi-Jiff Kenobi Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It's in vogue to decry and rubbish the last remaining non streamlined Gresley Pacific, without either knowing all of the facts or understanding fully the history of this locomotive, particularly its preservation years. It's time to stop attacking it and start backing it again. Hear, hear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I photographed LN 850 climbing through Greenfield (Standedge route) in the mist working a 150th Anniversary Troops by Train special... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebottle Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 In any event, the identity of a steam locomotive is not defined by the originality of its constituent parts. Actually, the underlying philosophical question has been debated since antiquity. For instance, the ship which brought Theseus back to Athens was said to have been preserved for several centuries, with its timbers being replaced as they decayed. Was it still the same ship? Anyway, Aristotle was on your side, Simon, arguing that it's the form of something which defines its reality, and that the materials used, its content, are of lesser import. Gordon Edit (missed word). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2013 John, how much of any locomotive in the national collection is actually "original?" I know for a fact that the cylinder monobloc in 4771 is not the one it was originally fitted with, nor is its boiler and vast swathes of other components. It is not a locomotive which contains wholly original, as built, components. It's as much the same as 4472 or any other working, preserved locomotive on that basis. No locomotive built, and working on a daily basis through the steam age, is going to be made up of all the same parts they had when they were first built. It's an absolute fallacy to suggest this is so. In any event, the identity of a steam locomotive is not defined by the originality of its constituent parts. The difference with 4771 to 4472 is that, being the last V2, it is also therefore the last locomotive of its type with such a cylinder monobloc. The importance of conserving this unique component is that which outstrips bringing the locomotive back into service, and rightly so. 4472 on the other hand, has spare cylinders of the correct type. I must ask what mainline locomotive do you think is wholly original? Is 6201 Princess Elizabeth less important because she has continued to be overhauled and rebuilt after the steam era? What about the numerous Castles and Halls on the mainline? Bulleid Pacifics? So much is made of the originality and provenance of components. It's frankly a falsehood and a very poor argument which people play on without understanding the way overhauls worked on railways, and in particular the LNER in the case of 4472. I admit freely that a few years ago, being very much younger and more naive, I played into the whole Steam Beano sensationalism too. A bit of research and talking to people who actually know what they're talking about put me right. It's in vogue to decry and rubbish the last remaining non streamlined Gresley Pacific, without either knowing all of the facts or understanding fully the history of this locomotive, particularly its preservation years. It's time to stop attacking it and start backing it again. It's not 'non-originality' that has got my back up over the years (that, as you say, is inevitable), but a lack of visual authenticity. The NRM appear incapable of making their minds up whether it is an LNER loco or a BR one and repeatedly turn it out with a hotch-potch of features from at least two eras. They also seem (like most of the previous owners) to have thrown a vast amount of money at it to relatively little effect. I happen to believe that the A3 is a very significant example of British locomotive design but that the sole survivor has been so badly presented for so long that its historical importance has been tarnished. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 One possibilty with 4771 would be to replace the block and keep it safe for possible reinstatement later. Similar things have happened when 46229 had cabsides replaced to give it more reoute availabilty during its preservation mainline career. Providing parts are kept safe for the future, there should be no reason for 4771 to not return to working order one day. It's in vogue to decry and rubbish the last remaining non streamlined Gresley Pacific, without either knowing all of the facts or understanding fully the history of this locomotive, particularly its preservation years. It's time to stop attacking it and start backing it again. I think it's the management of the whole thing which gets to me - the 'People's Engine' branding has always seemed horribly cliched and PR Firm driven to me. It also seems to loose sight of it as part of the overall railway scene. I think the management of the project has been covered enough elsewhere though... The big mistake many people make is to say it had taken money from other projects - the fund for its restoration seems to be mostly donations specifically made to the project. The public know the name and this must have had an effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It's not 'non-originality' that has got my back up over the years (that, as you say, is inevitable), but a lack of visual authenticity. The NRM appear incapable of making their minds up whether it is an LNER loco or a BR one and repeatedly turn it out with a hotch-potch of features from at least two eras. What can they do? Under Peter Waterman's ownership, the single chimney and blastpipe were replaced. Under Marchington's ownership, the locomotive ran in apple green with double chimney and smoke deflectors. The LNER livery is its best known livery. To not put it out in that livery is commercially unwise at the very least. They are the only owners since Pegler who have committed to restoring the single chimney and blast pipe: just not at this overhaul as, guess what - they don't own a single chimney or a blastpipe. These are items which have disappeared off the face of the planet. The NRM committed to wartime black for running in trials (particularly wise as it means no damaging of very complicated paintwork during running in) and LNER apple green afterwards. They've committed to running her in BR dark green to appease everyone, after a period in traffic in LNER livery. Can you say fairer than that? They also seem (like most of the previous owners) to have thrown a vast amount of money at it to relatively little effect. Not so: the frames are now properly aligned, they have the correct cylinders, boiler type, and many other components restored to very high levels of engineering excellence. Where they have fallen down is in the unknown quantities of previous overhauls, and a management system that didn't communicate very well between engineering teams and the rest. These have all been laid bare in the excellent report they gave out at the end of last year. The locomotive is not far off steaming, and dare I say is in a better state than it has been since it was built. I happen to believe that the A3 is a very significant example of British locomotive design but that the sole survivor has been so badly presented for so long that its historical importance has been tarnished. John What would you have them do? They have inherited a lot of problems and have actually put a good number of them right, despite the well publicised management issues. One possibilty with 4771 would be to replace the block and keep it safe for possible reinstatement later. Similar things have happened when 46229 had cabsides replaced to give it more reoute availabilty during its preservation mainline career. Providing parts are kept safe for the future, there should be no reason for 4771 to not return to working order one day. I agree with you entirely James. I think it's the management of the whole thing which gets to me - the 'People's Engine' branding has always seemed horribly cliched and PR Firm driven to me. It also seems to loose sight of it as part of the overall railway scene. I think the management of the project has been covered enough elsewhere though... The thing is though, it is the people's engine. The whole of the NRM is the people's collection. The taxpayers of this country effectively own the national collection, and 4472 was saved/bought (whichever side of the fence you come down on) for the national collection. I do not know of any other locomotive - Tornado exempted as a new build - that has had the number of everyday folk putting their hands in their pockets and donating purely based on the name and history. That's 4472's untapped power at present, one I would hope is made full use of when finally in steam. The big mistake many people make is to say it had taken money from other projects - the fund for its restoration seems to be mostly donations specifically made to the project. The public know the name and this must have had an effect. I agree with you there James fully. Perhaps I had better underline my stance there: I am taking things off topic again... --- Regarding the 2013 announcements, the one thing I am looking forward to is seeing how eLink works. I have heard there is a beta of sorts available. Has anyone used it yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJL Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Is Lord Nelson stuffed? Pickled in Brandy and put six foot under, I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted March 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2013 Actually, the underlying philosophical question has been debated since antiquity. For instance, the ship which brought Theseus back to Athens was said to have been preserved for several centuries, with its timbers being replaced as they decayed. Was it still the same ship? Anyway, Aristotle was on your side, Simon, arguing that it's the form of something which defines its reality, and that the materials used, its content, are of lesser import. Gordon Edit (missed word). Quite - speaking as a biologist I'm certainly not made of the same components as when I was 15 but last time I checked I still think I'm me. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 Can we please keep Scotsman related stuff in an appropriate topic please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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