Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[Dunsignalling]

Hattons are heavily discounting a lot of DMUs as well as the blue and grey Brighton Belle and the Bachmann CEPs. The Hornby 4 VEP is also not selling well. Perhaps there is a bigger market for EMUs in eras 3,4 and 5: the big four, cycling lion and late lion crest eras. The Kernow Thumper produced by Bachmann seems to be selling as well as the Hornby 2 BIL.

 

In duplicating models it looks like Hornby are targeting expensive or outdated Bachmann models like the 9F, Tornado and the A4. I bought the Hornby Railroad Tornado because of its low price but on reflection I should have bought the upgraded model. The Bachmann Tornado is now being discounted to the level of the upgraded Hornby model so it looks like that is the amount customers are prepared to pay.

 

I think Hornby's Rood Ashton Hall is going to provide some serious competition to Bachmann's Halls. It could result in some of Bachmann's Halls being sold at a discount.

Nobody seems to have yet worked out how big the market for EMUs actually is. The very heavy discounting of Bachmann 4-CEPs (and not just by Hatton's) indicates that they overestimated it. The grousing from model shop proprietors about supplies of 2-BILs suggests that Hornby have erred in the other direction. The Thumper (not an EMU anyway) as a limited-production item, is not comparable with either. 

 

Deliberate duplication just splits the market (which is not that big in this country anyway) and risks neither producer making a decent profit. I reckon the Standard 4 and B1 4-6-0s were targeted by Hornby, simply because Bachmann had neglected to upgrade theirs for too long.

 

Bachmann probably chose the 9F for the same reason. Once Hornby saw what they were up against, they sensibly decided to target their improved model on the budget end of the market. It actually isn't bad but, for me, doesn't come anywhere near Bachmann's at any price. 

 

The opposite applies to the A4 and I suspect Bachmann might not have bothered had they not inherited the tooling.

 

Tornado is so iconic that neither firm could afford to ignore it without risking their 'Street cred'. It's not really my thing (in model form) but the convergence of the 'real world' prices suggests there maybe isn't that much to choose between the two models.

 

That also happened with the 4MTs but the prices of Hornby B1s have remained firmer. Which way it goes with the Halls will depend on whether Hornby repeats the B1's clear margin of superiority.

 

John  

['CHARD]

That sums-up the Big Two's steam challenge very neatly and succinctly for me, John.  Bang on the money.

[davidw]

Nobody seems to have yet worked out how big the market for EMUs actually is. The very heavy discounting of Bachmann 4-CEPs (and not just by Hatton's) indicates that they overestimated it. The grousing from model shop proprietors about supplies of 2-BILs suggests that Hornby have erred in the other direction. The Thumper (not an EMU anyway) as a limited-production item, is not comparable with either. 

 

Deliberate duplication just splits the market (which is not that big in this country anyway) and risks neither producer making a decent profit. I reckon the Standard 4 and B1 4-6-0s were targeted by Hornby, simply because Bachmann had neglected to upgrade theirs for too long.

 

Bachmann probably chose the 9F for the same reason. Once Hornby saw what they were up against, they sensibly decided to target their improved model on the budget end of the market. It actually isn't bad but, for me, doesn't come anywhere near Bachmann's at any price. 

 

The opposite applies to the A4 and I suspect Bachmann might not have bothered had they not inherited the tooling.

 

Tornado is so iconic that neither firm could afford to ignore it without risking their 'Street cred'. It's not really my thing (in model form) but the convergence of the 'real world' prices suggests there maybe isn't that much to choose between the two models.

 

That also happened with the 4MTs but the prices of Hornby B1s have remained firmer. Which way it goes with the Halls will depend on whether Hornby repeats the B1's clear margin of superiority.

 

John  

Roll on for a Hornby V2 then as the V2 has to be the poorest model in the Bachmann range

[The Stationmaster]

Nobody seems to have yet worked out how big the market for EMUs actually is. The very heavy discounting of Bachmann 4-CEPs (and not just by Hatton's) indicates that they overestimated it. The grousing from model shop proprietors about supplies of 2-BILs suggests that Hornby have erred in the other direction. The Thumper (not an EMU anyway) as a limited-production item, is not comparable with either. 

 

Deliberate duplication just splits the market (which is not that big in this country anyway) and risks neither producer making a decent profit. I reckon the Standard 4 and B1 4-6-0s were targeted by Hornby, simply because Bachmann had neglected to upgrade theirs for too long.

 

Bachmann probably chose the 9F for the same reason. Once Hornby saw what they were up against, they sensibly decided to target their improved model on the budget end of the market. It actually isn't bad but, for me, doesn't come anywhere near Bachmann's at any price. 

 

The opposite applies to the A4 and I suspect Bachmann might not have bothered had they not inherited the tooling.

 

Tornado is so iconic that neither firm could afford to ignore it without risking their 'Street cred'. It's not really my thing (in model form) but the convergence of the 'real world' prices suggests there maybe isn't that much to choose between the two models.

 

That also happened with the 4MTs but the prices of Hornby B1s have remained firmer. Which way it goes with the Halls will depend on whether Hornby repeats the B1's clear margin of superiority.

 

John  

If the Hornby 'Hall' turns out like the 42XX it will be an interesting sort of Catch 22 - a good shape and overall appearance of a good (for me) prototype which 'just misses'  the top spot because the ship is spoilt for a ha'porth of tar.  It's the difference between 'pretty good' and 'very good' and all for the sake of a few quid on the RRP. (I've pre-ordered the 'Grange' carried over from 2012, an excellent model;  I have no intention whatsoever of even considering the 'Hall' until I've seen it, up close.)

 

I realise - as is becoming increasingly obvious - that Hornby is aiming to get as many retail sales as it can at or near RRP level and thus faces market resistance not only as a result of rising RRP levels but also from what is increasingly looking to be a drastic slimming of deep discounting.  And I can see too that with cheaper production costs it stands a better chance of acceptance of average retail prices much nearer to RRP but I still think that in a relatively small volume market there is far more price flexibility than Hornby perceive, but it seems to me they still want to try and get mass market volume?

 

The 2 BIL I think remains in many respect a 'blip' - a long sought prototype produced in relatively small numbers (Hornby have reputedly thus far made, in total, several hundred fewer 2BILs than Bachmann made Blue Pullmans) and released at a dribble works a different way in the marketplace from many other things

[Fenman]

The 2 BIL I think remains in many respect a 'blip' - a long sought prototype produced in relatively small numbers (Hornby have reputedly thus far made, in total, several hundred fewer 2BILs than Bachmann made Blue Pullmans) and released at a dribble works a different way in the marketplace from many other things

 

That's a fascinating insight. I now wonder how much of Hornby's volume decisions about the 2BIL were driven by their assessment of the market, or by production difficulties which limited the numbers to much less than mass-market (the idea that the Blue Pullman may be, relatively speaking, a "mass market" model is also fascinating!). Depending on the answer, it may play against the received "wisdom" that Hornby perceive themselves as, above all, a volume producer.

 

And since "Design Clever" seems to mean (comparing the 2BIL with, say, the 2EPB) that Hornby produce models which are of an equivalent standard to Bachmann -- with the same amount of moulded versus hand-fitted detail, 3-pole rather than 5-pole motors, etc -- it might suggest that Hornby thinks the market's constant praise of Bachmann shows that Hornby has been over-egging the super-detailing and taking a hit because of the higher prices.

 

Certainly, if I were Hornby, the enthusiastic reception on here to the warmed-over V2 would make me wonder why I was incurring such heavy costs on super-detailing new-tooling steamers.

 

Paul

[S.A.C Martin]

And since "Design Clever" seems to mean (comparing the 2BIL with, say, the 2EPB) that Hornby produce models which are of an equivalent standard to Bachmann -- with the same amount of moulded versus hand-fitted detail, 3-pole rather than 5-pole motors, etc -- it might suggest that Hornby thinks the market's constant praise of Bachmann shows that Hornby has been over-egging the super-detailing and taking a hit because of the higher prices.

 

The 2-BIL and the 2-EPB may be comparable for the number of carriages but the separately fitted detail and design of the 2-EPB is markedly superior to the 2-BIL. I say that not out of any loyalty to Bachmann but as a statement of fact. The motor drive system is also superior in my view, never having been a fan of what appears to be Hornby's "one size fits all" standard bogie that gave me no end of trouble on the 4VEP.

 

Which one had the more expensive RRP? Again, a question of whether you are now paying more for a lower specification from Hornby than you are elsewhere.

 

Certainly, if I were Hornby, the enthusiastic reception on here to the warmed-over V2 would make me wonder why I was incurring such heavy costs on super-detailing new-tooling steamers.

 

Paul

 

It's not really an "enthusiastic" though Paul. It's comparable to the 42xx/72xx in that respect in that it's the only game in town for a Gresley V2. Most LNER modellers will or have taken scalpels to their V2s to improve them. I know I've done that amongst other LNER modellers recently. To be fair to Bachmann the new V2 chassis is a very nice running chassis and it's DCC ready which previous models haven't been. The livery finish on the most recent V2s has also been very nice.

 

However if Hornby told me tomorrow that they would release a V2 to the quality specification of the L1, B1, O1 or B17, I'd jump at the chance and I'd happily pay the going rate appropriate to a model of that standard (which if this year's RRPs are anything to go by, are like the Thompson O1 at £125 DCC fitted).

[davidw]

That's a fascinating insight. I now wonder how much of Hornby's volume decisions about the 2BIL were driven by their assessment of the market, or by production difficulties which limited the numbers to much less than mass-market (the idea that the Blue Pullman may be, relatively speaking, a "mass market" model is also fascinating!). Depending on the answer, it may play against the received "wisdom" that Hornby perceive themselves as, above all, a volume producer.

 

And since "Design Clever" seems to mean (comparing the 2BIL with, say, the 2EPB) that Hornby produce models which are of an equivalent standard to Bachmann -- with the same amount of moulded versus hand-fitted detail, 3-pole rather than 5-pole motors, etc -- it might suggest that Hornby thinks the market's constant praise of Bachmann shows that Hornby has been over-egging the super-detailing and taking a hit because of the higher prices.

 

Certainly, if I were Hornby, the enthusiastic reception on here to the warmed-over V2 would make me wonder why I was incurring such heavy costs on super-detailing new-tooling steamers.

 

Paul

"Certainly, if I were Hornby, the enthusiastic reception on here to the warmed-over V2 would make me wonder why I was incurring such heavy costs on super-detailing new-tooling steamers."

 

Do you really think it was enthusiastic? I'd buy many if the bodied been improved I'm hesitant at the moment

[Fenman]

The 2-BIL and the 2-EPB may be comparable for the number of carriages but the separately fitted detail and design of the 2-EPB is markedly superior to the 2-BIL. I say that not out of any loyalty to Bachmann but as a statement of fact. 

 

I am with both you and davidw in wanting a Hornby-spec V2, but I'm struggling a bit with the idea that there is such a huge disparity in the standards of the 2BIL and 2EPB. I have both, and they feel pretty equivalent to me.

 

Could you articulate the aspects of detail and design that you feel are markedly superior (I do accept your comment about the relative merits of the motor bogies, although I would argue that the intrusion of the motor block into the passenger cabin of the 2EPB is a terrible design decision, and one which is then exacerbated by the half-lighting of that carriage. I would rather have no lighting, frankly, than having attention drawn to this design bodge which is almost as terrible as Hornby's bodge with the motor of the 4VEP).

 

The RRPs of the 2EPB and 2BIL are tricky to compare since the EPBs are older releases (though I freely accept my own hypocrisy in comparing 4CEP and 2BIL prices! In that case, it should have worked in Bachmann's favour and the fact that it did not is what made it intriguing). 

 

Paul

[davidw]

Can't comment on the EMU's as their not my target region. Apologies if I misunderstood... 

[Bernard Lamb]

The V2 received praise as it was a major improvement in the works department.

Quite a few modellers do not mind doing a bit of work on the body if a model runs well.

At least our kind words have resulted in Bachmann doing the same to the V1/3.

Roll on the J39 and J72.

Regarding the Hornby B1, I seem to inhabit a different planet.

They were heavily discounted within a few months of release at several retail outlets.

I would not have bought one if they had been at the "normal" price.

Bernard

[S.A.C Martin]

I am with both you and davidw in wanting a Hornby-spec V2, but I'm struggling a bit with the idea that there is such a huge disparity in the standards of the 2BIL and 2EPB. I have both, and they feel pretty equivalent to me.

 

I've had access to both and it was clear to me that the 2-EPB was far superior in terms of the separately fitted detail. I accept that the moulded vents on the 2-BIL are convincing to a degree, as an example, but the 2-EPB's moulded conduits on the roof seem finer and more accurate to the prototype overall by comparison.

 

It's difficult to explain without resorting to rather generalised and over used terms (such as "toy like") which I don't think are fair to either model particularly. The running qualities of the 2-EPB are supreme, and the pickups on all axles are significant.

 

Could you articulate the aspects of detail and design that you feel are markedly superior (I do accept your comment about the relative merits of the motor bogies, although I would argue that the intrusion of the motor block into the passenger cabin of the 2EPB is a terrible design decision, and one which is then exacerbated by the half-lighting of that carriage. I would rather have no lighting, frankly, than having attention drawn to this design bodge which is almost as terrible as Hornby's bodge with the motor of the 4VEP).

 

I think that's an area where we agree largely. The motor block into the passenger cabin was not the best idea, however I'd prefer to have the electric lighting than none at all, and the standard Hornby power bogie fitted. I disagree it's as bad a bodge as the 4VEP's though: no traction tyres for one and that is a step backwards I would prefer Hornby to leave out permanently. 

[Fenman]

 I disagree it's as bad a bodge as the 4VEP's though. 

 

I agree that the 2EPB motor intrusion is not as bad a bodge as the intrusion in the 4VEP - hence me writing "ALMOST as bad a bodge" [my emphasis], "almost" meaning "not quite as bad"...!

 

But I'm primarily comparing 2EPB and 2BIL, and the motor positioning in the latter is much more satisfactory.

 

For me it's swings and roundabouts: I think they're both lovely models and I'm pleased to have them, but they both have their flaws and their compromises. The flaws are different in each case, but overall, as models, I think they feel equivalent in terms of quality. In day-to-day use I can see no significant qualitative differences that mark one out as being "markedly superior" to the other.

 

Paul

[Dunsignalling]

Regarding the Hornby B1, I seem to inhabit a different planet.

They were heavily discounted within a few months of release at several retail outlets.

I would not have bought one if they had been at the "normal" price.

Bernard

You don't inhabit a different planet.

 

My point was not that the Hornby B1s sold close to RRP but rather that the actual selling prices (justifiably) remained above those of their Bachmann equivalents.

 

That was not the case with the Hornby Standard 4. It was also very good but perhaps suffered the handicap of not sitting well visually alongside other (Bachmann) Standards. I had one of each but replaced the Hornby one with a second Bachmann model for just that reason.

 

John

[coachmann]

IMO the Hornby B1 is a stonker. Prior to its intro I thought the old Bachy B1 was an okay model but the Hornby B1 really does capture the legginess of these locos. If only we had a modern 21st Century Black Five!

['CHARD]

IMO the Hornby B1 is a stonker. Prior to its intro I thought the old Bachy B1 was an okay model but the Hornby B1 really does capture the legginess of these locos. If only we had a modern 21st Century Black Five!

 

18 months ago Sir Ranulph Fiennes could count my Borders steam roster on the fingers of one hand. 

 

Now I'm happily up to my second Hornby B1 and A3, third Brit, and soon my third Black 5 - this last as a result of holding back on the compromised V2 - such has been my thirst for Margate steam.  I hope my activity on this front doesn't prompt an early Stanier facelift, Coach!

[60027Merlin]

Whilst the Bachmann V2 received praise on it's upgrade, that was solely in respect of the new chassis, tempered with the observations that the inaccurate body was not up to present day standards. No amount of modelling can alter a practically parallel firebox and boiler to the correct Gresley taper similar to that of the A3s. Hornby, in having the correct shape with the A3, highlights the poor Bachmann body shape.

 

If there is one gap in the market of a loco class which would sell well it's the V2. It is amazing that there is still not a good model of the top LNER class of freight loco (184 in number) which additionally worked regularly on passenger work, seen all over the ECML from Aberdeen to Kings Cross plus associated lines right up to the last days of steam and has a preserved example in the NRM is still not produced. 

[tractor_37260]

Including seperate transfers will instantly discourage a proportion of prospective buyers. The only way may be for an enterprising retailer to commission somebody to apply the transfers!

 

Cheers,

Mick

In answer to your first comment :  the un-numbered / un-named Rail Exclusive Vi Trains R/F 47's supplied with transfers etc sold extremely well !  Modellers have been asking for unnamed/un-numbered models for years.

 

As for the other comment - (Hornby) 00 Gauge ScotRail MK3 coaches should be available later this year,(allowing for Hornby's supply problems) thanks to an enterprising retailer who has already "read" the market, and committed. Supply details and prices etc have not as yet been confirmed, but post 2448 above gives you a basic idea of what we can expect. I'd bet they will sell out very quickly indeed !

 

I'm surprised, as you are normally the first to advocate "being a modeller" and getting stuck in and doing some actual "modelling" rather than most that just purchase what's available, be it right or wrong, and then more often than not, complain about it.

 

Regards

Ken

[coachmann]

I can't see Hornby investing good money in producing a V2, not even a moulded handrail version, when Bachmann has revamped the chassis and is no doubt waiting for better climes before giving it a new body to complete. But I can envisage Bachmann visiting the Black Five when it already has a Tender and has experience of LMS chassis design with its Jubilee and unrebuilt Patriot.

[davidw]

I can't see Hornby investing good money in producing a V2, not even a moulded handrail version, when Bachmann has revamped the chassis and is no doubt waiting for better climes before giving it a new body to complete. But I can envisage Bachmann visiting the Black Five when it already has a Tender and has experience of LMS chassis design with its Jubilee and unrebuilt Patriot.

 

Going back to SACMartin's  post refers to a V2 to the Standard of the L1, V2, O1 this I'd agree with  etc -I 'd hate to see us heading back to molded detail, for handrails for any model.

[Ozexpatriate]

... there seems to be little attractively tangible difference between the Railroad and 'standard' versions if 'Duke of Gloucester is any indication.

As per the 'standard' versus 'Railroad' issues of Tornado. In that case the 'standard' issue had moulded handrails.

 

We seem to have established that the 'standard' DoG will have fitted smoke deflector hand-rails and we can count the extra steps in the painting / added detail. I suspect these details really do have more disproportionate impact on the total manufacturing cost (particularly as it regards staffing) than most people think that they might.

[Guest Tom F]

I can't see Hornby investing good money in producing a V2, not even a moulded handrail version, when Bachmann has revamped the chassis and is no doubt waiting for better climes before giving it a new body to complete. But I can envisage Bachmann visiting the Black Five when it already has a Tender and has experience of LMS chassis design with its Jubilee and unrebuilt Patriot.

 

I spoke to Dennis Lovett at York. I mentioned a body upgrade for the V2 and the answer basically was, it will happen eventually but not until the old tooling is worn out.

[2ManySpams]

100 pages!

[Ozexpatriate]

100 pages!

Seems like we still really care about Hornby after all. 

['CHARD]

Seems like we still really care about Hornby after all. 

 

What a subtly made, but incredibly powerful point, Michael.

 

It set me thinking and, yes, we really do, don't we. 

 

Because if just one thing could be distilled from the foregoing 99 pages, it would be this: that for all Hornby's failings and irritating little ways and diversions, what we all want to see most of all is a successful Big Two remaining in this hobby for the long term.  Our criticisms are generally tempered with suggestions and recommendations of how this might be achieved to the satisfaction of all parties.  So for that i think Hornby and the contributors to this thread can be rightly encouraged.

[S.A.C Martin]

Because if just one thing could be distilled from the foregoing 99 pages, it would be this: that for all Hornby's failings and irritating little ways and diversions, what we all want to see most of all is a successful Big Two remaining in this hobby for the long term.  Our criticisms are generally tempered with suggestions and recommendations of how this might be achieved to the satisfaction of all parties.  So for that i think Hornby and the contributors to this thread can be rightly encouraged.

 

Ian, well said.

 

I can say wholeheartedly that any criticism I make (and no doubt others too) is born not of a desire to undermine Hornby but to see them succeed in future. 

 

At least with constructive criticism, Hornby can take or leave it as they please, and we'll have done "our bit" in ensuring what we perceive needs to be said and done, is said and done.