Seaton - Southern Railways Grouping Layout in 4mm

[tender]

Hi Bazza, Chris and Richard.

Many thanks for your input.

I'll be going to Scalefour North in April so hope to get some more advice on trackwork before getting stuck in. I'm currently making a start on building some stock although currently it's slow progress. Too many other things on the go.

The track plan is in a bit of limbo at present and I think ultimately will be determined by the baseboard size restrictions I have. It's still looking like the early track plan.

I must admit signalling is something I hadn't even considered up to now so any guidance in this area would be very helpful. Every time I look at a signal diagram I get totally confused, seems like a bit of black art.

 

Ray.

[RailWest]

"I must admit signalling is something I hadn't even considered up to now....."

 

Tssch...shame on you

 

As there seem to be a lot of 'variables' at the moment, I would suggest that this is a subject to be looked at once things have been 'firmed up' a bit. For example, whether you want to reflect the 'original' L&SWR signalling or an assumed later SRly upgrade etc, all this will have an impact.

[Dunsignalling]

At Bridgwater (and Seaton for that matter) the incoming train had to be propelled out of the platform for the engine to run round so pushing it back into the other platform for departure was no big deal, if a trifle unnecessary. I don't have a signalling diagram for the early station though the later one was signalled for arrivals and departures from either platform.

 

If push comes to shove you could always ask Simon Harris of the B&WWMRC...

It's well before my time but wouldn't branch services to/from Seaton have been operated by pull-push trains by the early 1930s?

 

The branch loco would have been one of the ex-LBSCR Class D1 0-4-2 tanks that had been tried out unsuccessfully on the Lyme Regis line rather than the M7s that became so familiar later on.

 

However, the short run-round would have restricted the length of incoming goods trains to six or seven wagons. 

 

John      

[Oldddudders]

It's well before my time but wouldn't branch services to/from Seaton have been operated by pull-push trains by the early 1930s?

 

The branch loco would have been one of the ex-LBSCR Class D1 0-4-2 tanks that had been tried out unsuccessfully on the Lyme Regis line rather than the M7s that became so familiar later on.

Mike King's Pull-Push Stock book includes minutes of a Southern Railway meeting 22.11.1928. This states inter alia that 45 locos would be needed to fufill the requirement for pull-push services on the Western section, once the Central type of control gear was provided. Similarly 71 passenger vehicles would need to be equipped. The Seaton branch is listed for one locomotive, class not specified, and Sets 372-4 would be used for Bishops Waltham, Seaton and Lee-on-the Solent services. Elsewhere in the same volume, Set 373 is noted as being allocated to Seaton.

[tender]

"I must admit signalling is something I hadn't even considered up to now....."

 

Tssch...shame on you

 

As there seem to be a lot of 'variables' at the moment, I would suggest that this is a subject to be looked at once things have been 'firmed up' a bit. For example, whether you want to reflect the 'original' L&SWR signalling or an assumed later SRly upgrade etc, all this will have an impact.

You're right, but being a late starter in this game there's so much to learn, I seem to be forever playing catch-up. Like you say this is something I need to revisit once I've got a firmer idea of the track plan.

 

It's well before my time but wouldn't branch services to/from Seaton have been operated by pull-push trains by the early 1930s?

 

The branch loco would have been one of the ex-LBSCR Class D1 0-4-2 tanks that had been tried out unsuccessfully on the Lyme Regis line rather than the M7s that became so familiar later on.

 

However, the short run-round would have restricted the length of incoming goods trains to six or seven wagons.

 

John

The D1 class is something I keep coming across but upto now the only pictures I have are of the engine itself. No indication of what coaching stock it pulled. I need to investigate class a bit further and find a suitable kit to build one from.

 

Mike King's Pull-Push Stock book includes minutes of a Southern Railway meeting 22.11.1928. This states inter alia that 45 locos would be needed to fufill the requirement for pull-push services on the Western section, once the Central type of control gear was provided. Similarly 71 passenger vehicles would need to be equipped. The Seaton branch is listed for one locomotive, class not specified, and Sets 372-4 would be used for Bishops Waltham, Seaton and Lee-on-the Solent services. Elsewhere in the same volume, Set 373 is noted as being allocated to Seaton.

I have a copy of Mike King's book and this led me to the eagerly awaited Kernow Gate Stock, set 373 on order. In Branchlines to Seaton and Sidmouth there's a picture of an O2 (207) with a single gate stock coach waiting at platform 2. The O2's displaced the D1's in the early 1930's which in turn were soon replaced by the M7's. I already have a Hornby long frame M7 donor waiting for me to build the replacement Bill Bedford chassis. Hopefully somebody will come up with a P4 conversion for the Kernow O2.

 

So, I've not been totally idle, here's a picture of my first (part built) P4 wagon. A nice Martin Finney LSWR 18' van. Still have the white metal springs, roof and a few details to add, but up to now I'm quite pleased with progress of this brass kit.

 

Painting it will be another story that I'm not looking forward to.

 

Ray.

[RailWest]

"The D1 class is something I keep coming across but upto now the only pictures I have are of the engine itself. No indication of what coaching stock it pulled...."

 

Out of curiosity, I looked briefly in my copy of "The Seaton Branch and Seaton Tramway" (Colin Maggs, Oakwood No 182 pub 1992). There are (at least) two pix of a D1, both in "early 1930s", with a 'gated stock' set. No number visible, but the author assumes 373. So maybe your Kernow purchase will suffice and you won't have to anything else!

 

However -  I found Chapter 4 on rolling stock a little confusing, as he talks about the use of L&SWR gated stock, but then implies that the D1s arrived concurrent with 'Brighton' motor sets - but I'm not a coaching expert, so you will need to draw your own conclusions :-(

[tender]

"The D1 class is something I keep coming across but upto now the only pictures I have are of the engine itself. No indication of what coaching stock it pulled...."

 

Out of curiosity, I looked briefly in my copy of "The Seaton Branch and Seaton Tramway" (Colin Maggs, Oakwood No 182 pub 1992). There are (at least) two pix of a D1, both in "early 1930s", with a 'gated stock' set. No number visible, but the author assumes 373. So maybe your Kernow purchase will suffice and you won't have to anything else!

 

However -  I found Chapter 4 on rolling stock a little confusing, as he talks about the use of L&SWR gated stock, but then implies that the D1s arrived concurrent with 'Brighton' motor sets - but I'm not a coaching expert, so you will need to draw your own conclusions :-(

Thanks for the reference Chris, Amazon have a few secondhand copies listed so I will get one on order. Looks like a useful resource.

 

Ray.

[tender]

Many thanks Peter for the reference to set 723. I'm still ploughing my way through Mike King's Pull/Push book, it's a nice picture of the set at Colyton with M7 no.49. I wonder if anybody makes a kit of the two coaches, diagrams 194 and 351 if I'm correct. Did look at the Roxey site but no such luck.

[emt_911]

Any progress on Seaton?

 

I thought about this location for my next project as it's an area I've known since the late sixties. Unfortunately it didn't fit with my interests at the moment.

 

Duncan

[tender]

Hi Duncan, thanks for your interest in this project.

 

Progress on Seaton still continues but at this stage it's very much a reading and note making exercise, with the occasional purchase of bits n pieces to be used when construction gets underway. The track plan also needs to be finalised although I'm still torn between the two prototype plans. I also have a few loco/rolling stock kits that need building up so will probably start a thread in the 'scratch and kit building' section specific to this project.

 

One thing that has been decided is the baseboards. (4800x600mm total including 1200mm fiddle yard)

 

From the outset I decided to build this with potential exhibition use in mind. For this, and to keep 'expenses' to a minimum it has to fit in the back of the car (and be operated by a max of two operators with occasional single operator stints), a Ford Fiesta (diesel) of all things, so this was going to be a challenge in itself.

 

 

(Sorry about the quality, it's a scan of a pencil sketch)

With the back seat down I can get a 1200x600 board in on its side with an available width of 890mm. So with four boards of 100mm depth the backscene height was determined at 160mm (only three boards need the backscene). Not very high but enough to protect any structures on the boards. I could have interleaved the boards to get a bit more height but I felt this would unnecessarily complicate things and maybe compromise the layout of the structures. The boards would also have to be narrower as 600mm is about all I can get before the board fouls the rear door window when closed.

 

With Exactoscale products becoming available again through C&L I'll be starting to think about track construction (sleepers and chairs not PCB) so will have to re address the track plan so I can make a start on track construction to give me something to try out the stock on.

[burgundy]

 

The D1 class is something I keep coming across but upto now the only pictures I have are of the engine itself. No indication of what coaching stock it pulled. I need to investigate class a bit further and find a suitable kit to build one from.

 

 

Ray.

Ray

A whitemetal version of the D tank is available from SE Finecast - with some minor dimensional compromise to provide commonality with the E tank. An etched version is available from Albion Models.

Best wishes

Eric   

[tender]

Hi Eric.

Many thanks for the info on the D class.

I picked up a M7 body from SE Finecast at Ally Pally last weekend to go with the Bill Bedford chassis I have. I was going to use a Hornby body but I thought I'd have a go at a white metal kit instead. If this goes well i will go back for the D class.

 

Ray.

[MartinWales]

Ray

 

Good to see you at Wigan the other day-any more updates on the project?

[tender]

Ray

 

Good to see you at Wigan the other day-any more updates on the project?

Hi Martin,

Good to see you again, if only briefly. We did keep an eye out for you during the day but you were being very elusive.

 

As regards the project, not really apart from an increasing collection of loco and wagon kits that need building.

I now have a West Country, N class, M7 and O2 and also have an eye on a D class, along with a selection of wagons.

 

Things should take a step forward this week as Colin has just emailed me to say the base boards should be delivered to work on Thursday.

Only hope I got the measurements right so they go in the back of the car to get them home. Will also have to do a bit of furniture moving to get them erected, although I doubt Polly will let them all stay up for long.

 

Watch this space.

 

Ray.

[MartinWales]

Ray-it was good to bump in to you and Polly in Machynlleth the other day-any more progress?

[tender]

Ray-it was good to bump in to you and Polly in Machynlleth the other day-any more progress?

Can't believe its six months since the last post but in answer to your question Martin here's a picture of the baseboards. Still haven't got around to erecting them though.

 

 

And yes, they do fit in the car. Just.

 

 

Ray.

[Peter Bedding]

I have wanted to model the South West in Southern Railways Grouping era ever since my interest in model railways was rekindled a few years ago.

Not being very well informed about the rights and wrongs of track plans I thought I’d surpass this problem by modelling something close to prototypical (with a bit of compression to make it fit the available space)

After a lot of procrastination and a move away from the North Cornwall Railway (which I had previously considered, for the time being), I have finally settled on a location from my childhood holidays. Well, not quite, we went to Beer (just around the corner from Seaton) for about 10 years on the trot.

 

Having done a few searches on the RMWEB and ScaleFour Forums it first appeared that this location hadn’t been modelled recently, however after doing a Google search I did come up with a Layout by the Beckenham and West Wickham MRC ‘Seaton’. After having a look at what pictures were available, it appears to be a pre grouping layout of the LSWR, (maybe someone here could confirm this) so my layout should have a very different flavour to it.

 

Looking through the various books that I’ve collected over the past few years there’s not an awful lot to go on but I do have a few (scaled) track plans from three periods:1903, 1940 and 1959.

There’s not much difference between the 1940 and 1959 plans but the 1903 plan is significantly different.

 

image.jpg

1903

image.jpg

1959

(An Historical Survey of Southern Sheds, Chris Hawkins and George Reeve, Oxford Publishing Co.)

 

This is creating a bit of a dilemma as, from reading various accounts of the development of Seaton station, it transpires that it underwent a significant rebuilding during 1936/7, right in the middle of my chosen era.

So, should I model Seaton with the 1903 plan, with the danger that without stock it might begin to look like a copy of another layout, or choose a post 1937 plan?

Obvious choice I here you say, but It’s not that straight forward. The redevelopment of the Station included a significant lengthening of the platform, such so that it would take up most of my available 12’ scenic section. Added to which it looks pretty boring.

 

So this is where a bit of modellers license might have to be made.

The 1936/7 redevelopment saw a new ‘deco style’ Station concourse, new (relocated) engine shed, signal box and goods shed, lengthened platform and the addition of the ‘Beer Stone Co.’ in the (now presumably private) siding. These would all be modelled with the exception of the lengthened platform but the track plan would remain as per the 1903 version, with the exception of the access to the shed.

 

image.jpg

 

Proposed Plan

 

Alternatively the new shed could be at the same location as the old shed in the 1903 plan.

 

Any comments at this stage would be most welcome before I get too far down the line (excuse pun).

 

Ray.

 

Hello Ray.

 

I would welcome an update on this project.

 

PB

[Andrew P]

Hello Ray.

 

I would welcome an update on this project.

 

PB

Hear hear Peter, I agree, that would be nice,  

 

OR

 

is Ray keeping this a secret until its finished? :nono: :nono:

 

Bodge

[tender]

Hi Peter, Andy

As I said on my Camel Quay Layout thread, Seaton is my early retirement project, but unfortunately it's had a bit of a set back doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon now (the early retirement that is). So it's on the back burner for a bit while we get all the outstanding jobs finished on Camel Quay now that exhibition invites are starting to come in. Hopefully by July CQ will be completely finished and i can move on to this project. I have had a go at modifying a few bits of rolling stock to P4 standards and that has worked well (although not suitable for the SR) and will probably make up a shunting plank for them to see how I get on with the track building. Funnily enough, i'm just about to go out and collect some Polyfoam board which has just come back in stock at Wicks. I use this for scenic construction but will be trying it as a lightweight baseboard for the plank. I've had a go at soldered track construction before but for this I will be using Exactoscale plastic chairs and wooden sleepers which are sitting in a box somewhere.

 

Ray.

[Andrew P]

At least its like MOST of my little projects, just sitting in a gone and forgotten folder, hahhaha

 

It will be another nice quality layout once Polly and yourself have finished with the track, electrics and scenic's.

 

Looking forward immensely mate.

 

Bodge

[Andrew P]

At least its like MOST of my little projects, just sitting in a gone and forgotten folder, hahhaha

 

It will be another nice quality layout once Polly and yourself have finished with the track, electrics and scenic's.

 

Looking forward immensely mate.

 

Bodge

There should have been a NOT in there Ray, i.e Its NOT like most of my Layouts,   hhahah sorry mate

 

Bodged it :no:

[tender]

There should have been a NOT in there Ray, i.e Its NOT like most of my Layouts,   hhahah sorry mate

 

Bodged it :no:

Hi Andy, I keep trying to come up with some ideas for the test plank but keep drawing a blank, I might be knocking on your door soon for some ideas from your forgoten folder.

Ray.

[Andrew P]

Hi Andy, I keep trying to come up with some ideas for the test plank but keep drawing a blank, I might be knocking on your door soon for some ideas from your forgoten folder.

Ray.

Morning Ray, have a look at Masons Lane, it came 6th in the Hornby Mag 3sq ft challenge.

I cant find it in the thread as I think I asked Andy Y to delete it afer I sold it.

But it has a Road Over Bridge, Level Crossing and a Canal, a Platform and two sidings all in 9 inches wide, I think it was 4ft long but it was just under the 3 sq ft.

Here are some pics.

 

 

Bodge

[Andrew P]

Ray, I have found Masons Lane on page 51,

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61523-masons-lane/

 

Hope this link works

 

Bodge

[Mallard60022]

Good morning 'tender'. For what it's worth I am about to embark on a Seaton Junctionish layout (Circa 1958/64) that won't, I'm sorry, be in P4 or even EM for that matter as I just do not have the time or skill to convert the required loco's. I have worked in EM on my Exhibition layout so I know the joy of using and seeing more realistic track. However I'm using the Albion Yard prinicipal (thanks Mr Potter) on my new set up (for me, not exhibition) that decent C75 trackwork, laid well, can look OK. 

As you can imagine there is a large loco fleet required for a summer timetable working on this project  and P4 ing that lot is not a possibility in my remaining lifetime.

So, why am I butting in here? Well it maybe a blessing that you have not yet started your layout (however I am super envious of those lovely boards). I say this because I would really, really encourage you to go for post rebuilding and pre war, simply for the operational potential. This was the peak time for dear old Seaton in pre nationilsation times and you can have all sorts coming and going and yet retain the LSWR flavour. No Bulleids of course but Pacifics are such a trial to convert anyway are they not!!

So, consider the remaining work time you have as 'funds for more kit' and when you get going on Seaton you will enjoy it all the more.

I am now a 'lurker' on both CQ and now this thread, look forward immensely to seeing how you get on and wish you well.

Phil @36E