'Devon Metro' developments

[Gwiwer]

I suspet, knowing Exeter and something of its hinterland, that the traffic problems are currently somewhat seasonal with a much higher number of people coming in for Christmas shopping trips and who either feel the excellent P&R network doesn't suit their needs or simply don't know it exists (not that you can really miss the signage on all approaches).

 

There will also be an element of flood recovery from those affected heading to the city to re-stock food, replace lost or damaged items of homeward and furniture and to generally lift their spirits.

 

I found Exeter was at its worst in December when perversely one might expect that in June or July with schools still in but holiday traffic building.

[Glorious NSE]

There is a little bit of that, trying to get home through town during Thursday late night Christmas shopping is murder!

 

But beyond that the city has already grown hugely in population in the 15 years I've lived here, yet the infrastructure has changed relatively little. Whilst the city itself isn't that big it's the 'big centre' - the source of jobs/entertainment/major shopping for about half a million folk.

 

That growth is set to continue with circa 12,000 additional homes in the suburbs and hinterland planned for the next few years.- investing in infrastructure has to happen to keep that many folk moving.

[devondynosoar118]

The new sky park and industrial / office development up by the MET is pretty monster, without the homes planned for the hinterland. At least there is some thought being given to increased walking not parking provision at these new stations.

Now if you really wanted to bump up traffic to Ivybridge you could re-open the Kingsbridge branch and run regular DMU services to Plymouth, I can even get you a GCWW bubble car for it..l.l

[Glorious NSE]

The current local government attitude I find very positive - acknowledging that public transport will not be suitable for all Exeter's transport needs, but that it does have the capacity to do much more than it can at present.

 

Previous incarnations had at times either ignored the road problems or tried to deal with them in very simplistic/negative ways (such as removing traffic lanes on major routes to cause traffic congestion to promote modal shift - projects that had to be reversed later on)

[46444]

 

 

Ivybridge services always seemed well used first thing in the morning when I was using them but pick a train later in the day and there would only be 4 or 5 people waiting to get on.

The biggest issue I had with using this service were the long gaps between trains in the middle of the day - Getting towards 3 hours if I remember rightly. I always felt that if there were a regular service then it would have been far better used.

 

Totally agree with you there Kris.

 

Catching a train in the morning from Ivybridge in each direction isn't too bad. But like you say the service intevals then become longer making planning a return journey to Ivybridge more difficult.

 

I know I've tried on many occasions and ended up either going to Totnes or Plymouth which is a shame because I'm sure if the service were improved passengers would use the station.

 

The original integrated bus service was a good idea though may have been better taking in the larger towns such as Brent and even Bittaford. I would imagine that due to poor patronage at Ivybridge the chances of re-opening Brent are way down on the list. One thing Brent has in its favour over Ivybridge is that it is central in the town with reasonable parking.

 

Going back to the original topic traffic around Exeter especially the Alphington Road/Marsh Barton side is really bad during peak times. Hopefully, the planned station at Marsh Barton may improve the situation.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Ramblin Rich]

Regarding Ivybridge, I'm surprised the "Park & Ride" signage on the A38 is still there - given the somewhat infrequent service, i wouldn't class it as a viable turn-up-and-go service whcih you would expect for a P&R. I know Devon metro proposals include increasing the frequency along the line, but I'm still unsure if it would really be workable.

I'm surprised that CK himself isn't lobbying for South Brent to be reopened

[46444]

Agree with you there as well Rich.

 

You wouldn't want to turn up off spec at Ivybridge waiting for the regular service to Plymouth . You'd have to wait a few hours perhaps then not get back to Ivybridge due to lack of stopping trains.

 

Think there are mutterings about re-opening Brent Station one day but perhaps that's one of those ideas that float around now and again-We shall see no doubt.

 

Whatever the outcome I think proposals for a Devon Metro and improved public transport in the likes of Exeter are essential in light of the planned building of more homes. However, there is a need to address the smaller towns and villages too that are on the NR network.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

 

[Gwiwer]

IIRC Ivybridge did have a rather better service at (re-)opening than it does now but it was cut back after the demand failed to materialise.

 

There have been stirrings about South Brent but I suspect the powers that be are a little wary after putting a lot on money into Ivybridge (both rail and to support bus services) only to see most of it drain out of a bottomless hole. Another issue of course is persuading the TOCs to actually stop their services at a station once re-opened. That might be a little easier now that both long-distance and stopping trains through Devon are mostly run by one operator. Ivybridge probably suffered since it fell into some operational cracks between Arriva and FGW.

[Glorious NSE]

And also the SWT withdrawal - at one point it was threatened to drop to 3 trains per day, which thankfully didn't happen - you might as well not bother at all with a service like that...

[Captain Kernow]

I'm surprised that CK himself isn't lobbying for South Brent to be reopened

 

Hmm, there are other issues at work here... got to be careful re 'conflict of interest' but essentially I wouldn't trust those locals currently lobbying to preserve the signalbox (essentially same people who mutter publically about the station from time to time) to clear out my cat litter tray competently..

 

There have been stirrings about South Brent but I suspect the powers that be are a little wary after putting a lot on money into Ivybridge (both rail and to support bus services) only to see most of it drain out of a bottomless hole. Another issue of course is persuading the TOCs to actually stop their services at a station once re-opened.

That hits the nail squarely on the head, Rick, plus of course, the very important issue of persuading the ORR that reopening South Brent is a good idea. There is also the issue of long signal sections and stopping more trains within said long sections, and the effect this could have on the timetable. It is a 9 mile section in the Up direction, from Aish Emergency Crossovers to Totnes...

 

Ivybridge probably suffered since it fell into some operational cracks between Arriva and FGW.

AFAIK XC have never been interested in Ivybridge as a served destination, it's all down to FGW.

 

 

As regards the Devon Metro, I can confirm that Devon CC are in earnest about this, and are pushing/supporting enhancements such as these two new stations, which can only be good news. I particularly agree with Rich's comments about Marsh Barton being ideal for workers coming in from the Newton Abbot direction and not having to drive...

[JohnR]

For a proper Devon Metro to happen, there needs to be more frequent services, along with new stations eg at Cullompton. Look at how London Overground has transformed travel in the areas it now serves.

 

The current financial climate seems to preclude that sort of money being spent in the shires (and there are plenty of other areas that could do with that too - eg Bristol, or Dundee), but its something that needs to happen to deal with the ever growing traffic, as well as the environmental concerns.

[Glorious NSE]

I know more trains is aspirational, but needs a lot of thought and some careful spending in some places before it can happen - for instance to serve the other new station in the plan for the Exmouth branch without reducing service to existing ones I reckon you probably need a chunk of double track, possibly needing a new Polsloe Bridge station - do that and add a signal to let you reverse at Topsham and you might be able to run a 15m service as far down as Topsham with every other train going on to Exmouth - I believe half hourly (one stopper, one fast) on the Southern main line is also aspirational - but that means timetabling 12 trains (a mix of through, reversing and terminating) in and out of P1/P3 at St Davids, which with the signalling restrictions for the bank won't be easy - maybe you have to start turning some back at Central, although that reduces connectivity?

 

Cully is now a big place, but would suffer from one of the issues Ivybridge does, namely there isn't a nice regular service passing that you could stop there without interfering with Intercity traffic - in addition if you ran the service, where would it go to - it'd have to serve Central really?

 

Maybe eventually you end up with something like a Taunton (or even Cardiff) to Topsham hourly...?

[Gwiwer]

Cullompton has been looked at over quite a few years for potential re-opening and as yet the beast lies dormant. I believe it's worth taking further but only if we also look at a new service pattern. Additional staff and rolling stock therefore come into the equation but what if the stoppers out to Taunton from the Bristol direction extended to Paignton? They then take over from the existing service at St. Davids or become additional trains. That also serves Marsh Barton into the bargain and could mean a few stops now made by HST / Voyager sets would no longer be required allowing those trains to make better use of their high permitted speeds.

 

I'm also trying to avoid introducing any new conflicting moves. A 15-minute headway to Topham might be ambitious but every 20 should be achievable. That introduces the problem of how best to provide a regular-headway service to Exmouth. Does one go for 20-40 minute intervals, 40-60 or just 60? Mixing fast and slow defeats the objective of a Devon / Exeter Metro in that precisely those stations where traffic is most wanted would not be served by faster trains.

 

What would it take to run every 20 through to Exmouth?

 

More capacity on the LSWR main line is also badly needed as SWT now uses all available paths for its hourly service. Perhaps a long loop suitably placed for running crosses? That way the route becomes available once more for emergency diversions without curtailing the advertised service and can potentially be looked at for a 30-minute service to perhaps Axminster. I have my doubts it could be sustained throughout the route linking to the Salisbury - London trains.

 

All of that creates pressure at St. Davids and the Exmouth trains might need to revert to the bay at Central in most cases. If two of three turned back there and offered reasonable connections into the SWT service that should suffice. One Exmouth train can still continue through to St. Davids and (since the pathing already exists for this) on to Barnstaple as it does now. That gives potentially three movements each way on the hill which should be well within the signalling and station capacity limits. Connectivity across from the SR to WR sides of the city is not lost but is never going to be ideal. In reality how many people ever make such through trips as Exton to Exeter St Thomas or Digby to Dawlish by train anyway?

[DLT]

In reality how many people ever make such through trips as Exton to Exeter St Thomas or Digby to Dawlish by train anyway?

I have! Paignton to Polsloe Bridge without a change, but only very occasionally.

Dave.

[DLT]

IIRC when the re-opening was being discussed there was some criticism of the site chosen for the new station and its position in relation to the original one and the town. I think the promoters were worried about the impact of extra cars parking in the town and thus promoted a new site on the edge of town where large amounts of car parking could be provided as well as giving easier access from the A38. This was felt to be important as the station was also intended to try and relieve congestion in Plymouth by encouraging people to drive to Ivybridge instead. The initial bus services were also part of the same approach but given the size of the surrounding settlements its not surprising that usage was very low hence their withdrawal.

In addition, I understood that the site of the original Ivybridge Station, right by the viaduct, was unsuitable on safety grounds (curve too sharp?) but I may have got that wrong.

Certainly the old station site would have been far more convenient for residents, being so close to the centre of the village. So from that point of view, the new station was "shot in the foot" right from the start.

Dave.

[Gwiwer]

The old station site did not meet current requirements for straight and level platforms. All concerned probably realised the new site was something of a compromise before it went ahead but there was significant pressure in the local community who at the time only had an hourly bus into Plymouth as their public transport option.

 

More buses were put on as the town grew including the 188 which was the "round the town to station" link I discussed above. At one stage we were running three buses an hour out there and still not winning any more traffic to speak of. At the same time the railway station had a flurry of early use which settled back to a modest trickle outside of a couple of normally busy calls and the stopping pattern was adjusted to suit.

 

We cut back the buses as we couldn't afford to run empty ones for ever but for a time Ivybridge retained two an hour into Plymouth. One along the main road and the other still going around the houses but not to the station.

 

Bus company politics now means there is something of an on-road war going on between First and Citybus for Ivybridge traffic at artificially low fares probably well below the cost of running the service. Time will tell how that evolves but it's unlikely to result in the 4-an-hour level of current service being a permanent arrangement. Meanwhile fewer and fewer people are using the station while there are bargain bus fares and so many buses stopping close to homes to be had.

[Glorious NSE]

Cullompton has been looked at over quite a few years for potential re-opening and as yet the beast lies dormant. I believe it's worth taking further but only if we also look at a new service pattern. Additional staff and rolling stock therefore come into the equation but what if the stoppers out to Taunton from the Bristol direction extended to Paignton? They then take over from the existing service at St. Davids or become additional trains. That also serves Marsh Barton into the bargain and could mean a few stops now made by HST / Voyager sets would no longer be required allowing those trains to make better use of their high permitted speeds.

 

But the downside is that if the intention is for commuters into Exeter then the train only manages to get them to outer places - needing a change. With more open ticketing options that exist in other places (sorry folks I grew up in London where I didn't have to worry about who ran the service or whether it was light rail, heavy rail, metro or bus, you just flashed your ticket and it worked) then you might be able to start advertising St Thomas with it's frequent buses up the hill as a railheading alternative?

 

Mixing fast and slow defeats the objective of a Devon / Exeter Metro in that precisely those stations where traffic is most wanted would not be served by faster trains.

 

But that is the situation at present, where St James, Polsloe Bridge etc are served by only every other train...they also want a station at Monkerton on the Topsham to Exmouth Jcn section - Topsham-St James in the timetables shows as 12mins without the Newcourt stop, so the double track (a better bet than a loop resulting in slower journeys IMHO) is needed to run the existing 30m frequency with the stations with the two additionals which are in the plan (I think they will just get away with adding Newcourt only on the existing trainplan)

 

I can see a lot of complaints from Topsham residents about the crossing if it ever got to a 15m service though!

 

What would it take to run every 20 through to Exmouth?

 

Current journey time appears to be circa 12m, so increasing the frequency that end needs another loop that end, the only place I think it would be possible is Lympstone Village.

 

More capacity on the LSWR main line is also badly needed as SWT now uses all available paths for its hourly service. Perhaps a long loop suitably placed for running crosses? That way the route becomes available once more for emergency diversions without curtailing the advertised service and can potentially be looked at for a 30-minute service to perhaps Axminster. I have my doubts it could be sustained throughout the route linking to the Salisbury - London trains.

 

I think the aspiration is for an Axminster commuter train to fill the gaps between London services, that would also allow the minor stops as far as Honiton to both get a better service to Exeter (their main market) and to speed up the London trains - although the cost of that is they lose the London trains, at least in the day. That route is also serving the Cranbrook new town so it's importance in that role will increase.

 

Supposedly it needs one new loop to acheive that, although it's also got to at least theoretically be able to support freight moves as far as Exeter airport...

 

Exmouth trains might need to revert to the bay at Central in most cases. If two of three turned back there and offered reasonable connections into the SWT service that should suffice.

 

I'd say it does not suffice - very few folk will be going to St Davids as a destination in it's own right, and you have now converted a through train or a single change into a minimum of two changes for most passengers.

 

In reality how many people ever make such through trips as Exton to Exeter St Thomas or Digby to Dawlish by train anyway?

 

In the opposite direction I expect many would be doing things like Central to Dawlish however, and the Marsh Barton station I think will also be a traffic draw from Exmouth and Lympstone due to the awful commuter road from Exmouth.

 

Don't think there's easy solutions anywhere.

[Rivercider]

When the Southern Region announced plans to dieselise the East Devon branchlines in 1957

it was envisaging a 20 minute frequency service Exeter Central - Exmouth - Budleigh Salterton.

To enable this Exton was to be rebuilt as an island platform, signal box and passing loop.

 

When Mrs Rivercider and me occasionally stay for a few days at Dawlish Warren we make use of the service

as I like to leave the car at the caravan during the stay. We use the train for Exmouth and Topsham from Dawlish Warren.

If she goes shopping in Exeter then she uses the through service to Central, as do many others.

 

cheers

[Glorious NSE]

The second trackbed at Exton I think has been built on - that presumably was in the days when it was double track at least most of the way to Topsham anyhow as a 20m service would need another pass somewhere around Digby i'd have thought?

 

Wonder what the theoretical capacity of the Central/St Davids section is - pretty sure it beats 6tph (total) already at certain times of the day, but my gut feeling is 12tph is probably too much for the present restrictions to allow. I think there might be practical ways to remove *some* of those restrictions the signalling and track arrangement imposes, for example a mid platform signal at St Davids might mean you could disconnect the restriction on trains descending the bank from affecting the route over Red Cow as it appears to do these days - and in practical terms it's not the same railway as in 1985 when vac or even partially fitted engineers trains would have been descending that bank regularly.

[Rivercider]

The second trackbed at Exton I think has been built on - that presumably was in the days when it was double track at least most of the way to Topsham anyhow as a 20m service would need another pass somewhere around Digby i'd have thought?

 

 

 

Yes that plan would have worked with double track from Exmouth Junction to Topsham, (which I can remember from my early trips to the seaside from Polsloe Bridge).

 

 

edit

 

The current timetable already shows a maximum of 5 trains an hour down the bank into St Davids

departing Central at 16.46, 16.53, 17.21, 17.36, and 17.45.

 

While going up the bank there are 6 in 62 minutes

departing St Davids at 16.50, 17.10, 17.18, 17.26, 17.46, 17.52.

 

cheers

[JohnR]

Yes that plan would have worked with double track from Exmouth Junction to Topsham, (which I can remember from my early trips to the seaside from Polsloe Bridge).

 

 

cheers

 

Yes the line was double from Exmouth Junction to Topsham - one of my earliest memories is of seeing the second line being lifted from the footbridge between Leypark Road and Birchy Barton Hill. The plan was for a loop at Exton, but there was also a goods loop at Lympstone. It was designed for a 20 minute service frequency using DEMUs in the aborted BR(S) scheme for dieselisation of the east devon branches. I believe that a shed was going to be built in the 'v' of the junction, opposite the steam shed.

[Glorious NSE]

The current timetable already shows a maximum of 5 trains an hour down the bank into St Davids

departing Central at 16.46, 16.53, 17.21, 17.36, and 17.45.

 

I think I'd call that 'four with a bit of variation' - but nevertheless it shows as little as a 7 min headway down the bank (and no real issues up the bank) with the current arrangement provided you:

 

A - Can get rid of the front train to the North and not reverse it.

B - Don't have a conflict with Paignton traffic at the South end of St Davids

C - Your overlap doesn't have a conflict with Barnstaple/P2/Yard moves at the North end.

 

That suggests you might be able to have 8tph on that section already - say something like a half-hourly Exmouth-Paignton, an hourly Topsham-Barnstaple, and an hourly Waterloo-St Davids - with the second Topsham and the Axminster terminating at Central.

 

If you can get them down the bank it does give you other options for places to send them and better connectivity though.

[Gwiwer]

Once down at St. Davids trains from Central must enter platforms 1 or 3 (2 is the north-facing bay at the far end of 1). Under the present track and signalling trains may reverse in either of those both to and from the GW Main towards Dawlish and may also proceed north either entering the Waterloo Road sidings or by making a conflicting move cross onto the Up Main to travel towards Cowley Bridge. There are limited pathing options across to the Up Main already.

 

If we extended the Bristol - Taunton stoppers to Paignton as I suggested above they could replace the reversing movements currently in use although at the cost of introducing a change of train for passengers where it is not required today. Alternatively the two trains could be coupled / split in platform 3 and run combined towards Dawlish though this introduces a conflicting move in the up direction with the Taunton unit having to cross back onto the Up Main; the cross from Up Main to platform 3 conflicting with the Down Main is already in the timetable.

 

St. Davids is arranged to virtually separate the GW and LSWR routes except where trains require to work through from one to the other. It would take huge sums of money to do what the L&SWR hoped for years ago and have a grade-separated junction avoiding the GW tracks altogether. But it could be done if the Waterloo Roads were lifted and the lines elevated at that point to cross into the now unused portion of Riverside Yard. There we could have a couple of turnback sidings (perhaps as now for Waterloo trains) while trains continuing in service might proceed to an all-new alignment at Cowley Bridge to access the Barnstaple line or feed into the GW up main without crossing anything on the level.

 

What price do we place on such an ambitious scheme? If Exeter is to become the hub of a Devon Metro and there remains a possibility of the inland route to Plymouth one day reopening then can we afford to ignore this as an option?

[Captain Kernow]

entering the Waterloo Road sidings

These sidings are known locally as Exeter 'New Yard' (just in case I find myself referring to them in the future!)

 

St. Davids is arranged to virtually separate the GW and LSWR routes except where trains require to work through from one to the other. It would take huge sums of money to do what the L&SWR hoped for years ago and have a grade-separated junction avoiding the GW tracks altogether. But it could be done if the Waterloo Roads were lifted and the lines elevated at that point to cross into the now unused portion of Riverside Yard. There we could have a couple of turnback sidings (perhaps as now for Waterloo trains) while trains continuing in service might proceed to an all-new alignment at Cowley Bridge to access the Barnstaple line or feed into the GW up main without crossing anything on the level.

Problem with that, Rick, is that Riverside Yard is 'waking up' again, and all currently extant roads now have a future, plus 'Old Yard' (aka 'Waggoners Way') is also being relaid with two new sidings for tamper maintenance and stabling (although sadly not using the old, listed goods shed).

 

No easy answers here, as various folk have pointed out.

 

We wouldn't readily suggest re-doubling all the way from Exmouth Jct to Topsham, due to the expense involved in building a new bridge over the M5. For that reason, we agreed that the new platform at Newcourt would have to occupy part of the old double track formation to keep costs down.

 

Should we wish to go to a 15 minute interval service, the current received wisdom is to extend the double track from Exmouth Jct towards Digby (how far is still open to debate) and install a loop at Lympstone (village). A turn-back signalling facility at Topsham (or even Digby) would suit the market for travel to Digby very well, passenger numbers have grown significantly since the Exeter Chiefs upturn in fortunes (the rugby stadium at Sandy Park is mid-way between Digby and the site of the proposed new station at Newcourt).

 

If anything, increasing service frequency between Exeter and Digby is the highest priority on the branch, currently.

 

However, all this has to be paid for. The current budget would appear to be going into the two new stations....

[Glorious NSE]

A turn-back signalling facility at Topsham (or even Digby) would suit the market for travel to Digby very well, passenger numbers have grown significantly since the Exeter Chiefs upturn in fortunes (the rugby stadium at Sandy Park is mid-way between Digby and the site of the proposed new station at Newcourt).

 

Hadn't thought of turning them at Digby - there's some logic to that, no need to alter the existing signalling at Topsham, no (extra) complaints from residents in traffic jams...

 

However, all this has to be paid for. The current budget would appear to be going into the two new stations....

 

Absolutely, i'm still impressed we have a pro public transport local authority, and one that has still found the capability to push these forwards in tight times, 'can't afford it' would have been a very plausible excuse to do nothing for a few years if they were looking for one.