Hornby 2 BIL

[Gwiwer]

'Twas, Stewart, 'twas.  

 

90 seconds allowed for a split IIRC though it could be done in 30 or even less.  2 minutes for an attach which could be done in less than one.  It could be done in a few seconds by contravening the rules and having the rear portion run straight onto the front rather than stopping first.  When time recovery was of the essence that was certainly done on occasions.

[Purley Oaks]

Know this link has gone slightly off-piste, but some modern companies split trains pretty fast. I'm thinking of the Southeastern 375 split at Ashford (Dover/Canterbury) where it takes around a minute

mal

[Mod6]

Let's try and steer this back to the 2BIL if possible please.

[Ceptic]

Kernow still have the NRM version in stock for immediate delivery - .

 

Slightly more expensive than some but nevertheless available.

 

Both Bournemouth Model Railway Centre and Setchfields of Poole appear to have been re-stocked with all three versions. I couldn't see whether they included the DCC Fitted types tho'.

 

Plus, Notification from Hattons, today.

" Hornby R3162A 2-BIL, BR(S) Green, DCC Ready, - Latest information from supplier suggests delivery date on, or after Mon. 22nd. July.....Information to be used as a guide only " 

[Guest maxthemapman]

Sorry about the long post, and the tardiness (I buy my magazines a month late off a market stall) but this appeared in the May "Model Rail" magazine courtesy of Chris Leigh, gently berating modellers for expecting too much for the prices that they are prepared to pay, and I think it raises some important issues. Here is what he said:

 

"Hornby's 2-BIL was criticised for having a trailer bogie with shoe beams on one car where it should have been a power bogie. [sic] The bogie detail is largely hidden by the shoe beams anyway, and despite ten years of living where I saw '2-BILs' every half an hour, I could not have told you what that particular bogie looked like. To have satisfied the critics, Hornby would have had to produce three different tools for four bogies"

 

Where to start?

 

First, correct the error, the fault is of course that there is a motor bogie on the trailer coach, and not difficult to spot. SR steam and motor bogies look very different from each other.

 

Second, the 'argument from personal lack of observation' is not a valid way of determining model standards: "I personally didn't realise that it was wrong so it must be fine". I know many Underground users who are surprised when I tell them that there are two different sizes of train, despite practically banging their heads on the ceilings of one type. Detail is easy to miss by the casual observer who does not care very much for what he sees. For most modellers, Southern Electrics are boring boxes on wheels, and they are amazed that some people like them at all, let alone can tell them apart. Any democratic "its fine by me so stop complaining argument" means that there will be a risk of a systematic bias against high standard rtr Southern Electrics versus more glamorous prototypes that attract more careful observation by more people.

 

Third, personally, I find the incorrect bogie irritating because it is conceptually weird. There is a motor bogie sitting there, with no equipment to drive it! This would be analogous to an air-conditioned Mk2 coach with no air conditioning equipment on the underframe. Would that be acceptable? I don't think that this was a cost-cutting measure as much as a mistake anyway. It shows a lack of understanding by Hornby of how a Southern Electric works. If I had to have two bogies on a 2-BIL, I would have preferred a steam bogie and a couple of shoe beams in the box so that I could try to glue them on. Rectifying the current situation requires an entirely new bogie to be sourced and attached.

 

Fourth, Chris, get your Bachmann 2-EPB off the shelf, and look underneath. Start at the guards van. Motor bogie, trailer bogie, trailer bogie, and what's this? A trailer bogie with shoe beams attached. Bachmann has three different types of bogie on their two coach set. Of course, Bachmann is getting a lot of mileage from their tooling, but Hornby can too if they design clever and plan ahead.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Compared to 20 years ago the majority of the models we have today are far superior and for a lot us we are not to worried about the errors as detailed above. When I look at my old Triang EMU from the early 1960's and then I look at Hornby's 2 BIL I'm amazed how far we have progressed..

 

Am I going to modify it to correct  I only become aware via model railway media?  No!

 

Inaccurately happy !

 

XF

[frobisher]

"...To have satisfied the critics, Hornby would have had to produce three different tools for four bogies"

Which is also what Hornby did when you look at the service sheets for the 2BIL, which is kind of stupefying.

[phil gollin]

.

 

I must agree with maxthemapman.

 

It MIGHT be different if the 2-BIL was a budget Railroad model, but such problems as with the bogies (and the rather crude "design clever" roof ventilators) along with the rather weird pricing games that SEEM to have been associated with the 2-BIL (various new ones leaking into shops having officially sold out months ago) have rather taken the shine away from what should have been a shot-in-the-arm for Southern EMU modellers.

 

.

[bazza.]

Compared to 20 years ago the majority of the models we have today are far superior and for a lot us we are not to worried about the errors as detailed above. When I look at my old Triang EMU from the early 1960's and then I look at Hornby's 2 BIL I'm amazed how far we have progressed..

 

Am I going to modify it to correct  I only become aware via model railway media?  No!

 

Inaccurately happy !

 

XF

Hi Xerces Fobe2,

 

I totally agree. I am also very happy with my Hornby 2 BIL. The only person that I know how could hand make a more accurate model of a 2BIL would be Colin Parks. But I doubt if he would want to build more than unit, or two at most. Where as Hornby have made hundreds of 2 BIL models in three different liveries to date, and I would expect, many more different liveries to come.

 

I could not hand make or assemble a Ian Kirk kit of a 2BIL that would be more accurate than the Hornby models that have been released to date.

 

I am looking forward to my second Hornby 2BIL unit # R3162AX which should be available some time after 22 July ........and as discussed on my post 737, should be unit number 2142.

 

Bazza

[Guest maxthemapman]

The only person that I know how could hand make a more accurate model of a 2BIL would be Colin Parks.

 

Bazza

 

Seriously? You are going to rule out Bachmann? Whose recent EMUs, DEMUs, and DMUs have been absolutely spot on, they haven't dropped the ball for years. Or Dapol? Who release CADs online for comments?

Edited June 5, 2013 by maxthemapman

[Fenman]

Seriously? You are going to rule out Bachmann? Whose recent EMUs, DEMUs, and DMUs have been absolutely spot on, they haven't dropped the ball for years. Or Dapol? Who release CADs online for comments?

 

The poster specified "hand make". 

 

Paul

[Oldddudders]

I could not hand make or assemble a Ian Kirk kit of a 2BIL that would be more accurate than the Hornby models that have been released to date.

 

Nor I. As for those who find the Hornby model's shortcomings unacceptable, they can either vote with their feet by not buying it, or demonstrate modelling skills greater than mine by modifying it to meet their requirements. This thread will be the ideal place to demonstrate how Hornby should have done it.

[Xerces Fobe2]

I have an Ian Kirk kit that I might consider building this year, however realistically overall the Hornby model despite it's shortcomings will still look better.

 

XF

Edited June 6, 2013 by Xerces Fobe2

[Guest maxthemapman]

As for those who find the Hornby model's shortcomings unacceptable, they can either vote with their feet by not buying it, or demonstrate modelling skills greater than mine by modifying it to meet their requirements.

No, I will go for option 3:

 

1) The people who want a 2BIL buy as many as they can get

2) The people who dislike this slapdash approach to detail complain about it as much as they can

3) Journalists who are currently berating the people who are unhappy see the error of their ways and suggest that Hornby could have done better

4) Hornby, delighted with the unexpected success of their model decide to model the correct bogie on subsequent batches (and the 2HAL)

5) The correct bogie is made available for purchase to people who bought the first batch

 

Result: everyone happy

 

Edit, sorry, should have made this clearer:

 

Everyone buys the 2BIL, including the people who dislike the bogies. (2) above is a subset of (1)

 

The point here is that there is a problem with the clip-on detail, which is always fixable. Even the 4-VEP can be saved because most of the worst problems are with bits that clip onto the basic bodyshells, which are sound. I haven't bought any 4VEPs because my preferred era is green, although if they did a fixed version in green I would buy one.

Edited June 7, 2013 by maxthemapman

[Pete 75C]

Such an unhappy thread in places. As a Southerner and being more than old enough to remember when it was impossible to model post-steam SR using RTR stock, I constantly have to remind myself how lucky we now are. I was surprised and delighted when Lima introduced the 73 and have had numerous Lima 33s over the years. Heljan's 33/0 blows the Lima version away but there are those that say it's a horribly inaccurate model. As for the 2BIL, I'll hold out for a blue one and I'm sure I'll be more than happy with it. As for the "inaccuracies" and other Hornby "crimes" against modelling, I care not a lot. My layout's supposedly set in 1975 so if I want to get my rivet-counter's head on, I shouldn't even be running one. We seem to be good at taking the fun out of our hobby at times.

Pete.

[Budgie]

I haven't bought any 4VEPs because my preferred era is green, although if they did a fixed version in green I would buy one.

I thought the 4VEPs first came out in blue, and there never was a green one. If you want one in green you could buy a blue one and repaint it, I suppose.

[Pete 75C]

The VEP was born in 1967 and appeared in overall blue with small yellow panels and the chrome double arrows. I'm not sure if it was the early chromatic blue or what was to become the standard rail blue. That would fit well with the (late) BR green period and offer a little variety. My layout's set around 1975 and I'm planning to have a little faded green in evidence.

Pete.

[Xerces Fobe2]

The orginsl 4VEP blue always looked very matt to me however the color was BR Blue and not chromatic. The AM10 (Class 310) was introduced around a year or so earlier and their paint finish was far superior and appeared to not fade and dull like the 4 VEP.

 

XF

Edited June 7, 2013 by Xerces Fobe2

[Guest maxthemapman]

I must have seen reference to this, and assumed that it meant a heritage livery:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3514_at_London_Victoria.jpg

Class 423/1, no. 3514 at London Victoria on 29 March 2003. This was the only unit to be painted in Southern's green livery and was one of the last units still in traffic with Southern.

 

Not likely to attempt a pseudo-green livery myself, too fiddly to keep all the window frames in silver, unless the factory finish of the blue unit turns out to repel paint as some metallic finishes do.

Edited June 8, 2013 by maxthemapman

[Pete 75C]

Thanks for that link. I didn't know any slam-door stock made it into Southern's current livery. I don't totally dislike the Southern livery but it does seem to sit way better on sliding door stock. Same with the Connex livery. Back OT, thank God the 2BILs weren't around long enough to get the toothpaste treatment.

[Gwiwer]

For anyone wishing to pursue the discussions on livery, rather than the 2Bil model,  I've opened up a "Prototypes" topic here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72650-southern-region-livery/?p=1063416

[Colin parks]

Nor I. As for those who find the Hornby model's shortcomings unacceptable, they can either vote with their feet by not buying it, or demonstrate modelling skills greater than mine by modifying it to meet their requirements. This thread will be the ideal place to demonstrate how Hornby should have done it.

Hi Ian,

 

Watch out! I'm about to start butchering my 2 BIL.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[reevesthecat]

There is a sale at themodeller.com , 2-bills at £64-£85 quid!

Mark

[Pete 75C]

You're right Mark - that is a good price:

http://www.themodeller.com/Departments/Model-Railway/Hornby-Locomotives/Train-Packs.aspx

Pete.

[SRman]

Hmmmm! Their website appears to be having problems right now. I'll have to try again later.