Hornby Star Class

[Coach bogie]

However, back to the Star class, I am sure the engine-tender gap can be adjusted by some means or other. I'm still struggling with an A3 where the bar has two holes ... one too wide, one too close...

 

I made a new/shorter linkage from scrap brass, first one from thick plasticard. A few minutes work. Now back the party....

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Dunsignalling]

However, back to the Star class, I am sure the engine-tender gap can be adjusted by some means or other. I'm still struggling with an A3 where the bar has two holes ... one too wide, one too close...

The easiest way to deal with the "two holes" problem is to join them to form an oval, then solder a bit of wire across exactly where you want it. 

 

John

[Prometheus]

If "we are getting from Hornby just what we are wlling to pay for", then why has Bachmann's quality not dropped by the same measure?  

 

 

 

If I've understood your post correctly, I'm not sure that one can generalise accurately in that way. To be absolutely honest, I have returned more Bachmann models pro rata to my local dealer because of poor QC/assembly issues than I have Hornby. Obviously everyone's experiences will be different but mine have led me to expect loose, broken, ill-fitting or missing parts either way in every case - one of the reasons that I try to avoid postal purchases. I will say that my Star and my L&Y tank were absolutely fine however [apart from rather misty name plates on the Star - something which I can rectify easily and which would neither prevent me from purchasing nor lead to a return]. My worst ever purchase was a Bachmann G2A, that resulted in the fourth model being, finally, the acceptable one.

 

In terms of general accuracy however [eg the 12 spoke issue, which I neither noticed nor would have been aware of], I don't feel able to comment. I'm one of the many whose view is that if it looks like a duck........

 

I know this doesn't satisfy everybody but then we've always been the broadest of churches. 

 

Tony

Edited January 1, 2014 by Prometheus

[NigelP]

Found my Star - Queen Alexandra Castle Class (renamed Hornby Castle, much modified), took some shots of the footplate fixed to the tender for those interested in having something that the fireman can stand on, rather than climb over. 

 

 

 

 

NigelP

[Coach bogie]

Here is my Friday afternoon Glastonbury now resurrected as 4038 Queen Berengaria. I have always had a 4038, first on a Wills, then my first Hornby Star mated with a 4,000 gallon tender from a friends Castle, and now, version 3 with a Collett 3,500 type tender as running from Westbury in the late 1930's. The last version was always a must as most of my GW days research has 4038 in this condition.

 

Stage one was to repair the misaligned cab and fill any gaps. Cab side handrails replaced at the same time and the bottom part of the step cut out as per prototype.

 

 

At the front end, the smoke box number was removed with knife, file and glass paper with replacement hinge bar from plasticard.

 

 

Using the existing 4,000 gallon tender frame, a replacement top from a Bachmann 2251 was used. This needs the underframe and steps removing to leave just the top. Moulded handrails (yes Bachmann have moulded handrails as well!) all removed and replaced with wire etc. The tender body needs rubbing down underneath for a flush fit to the Hornby body.

 

Once all this was done tender attached to see how it is all looking.

 

Finally it is down to painting, lining, plates, coal, lamps and crew. 4038 has a footplate inspector aboard just incase there is another problem with the chassis! The original fall plate, although it broke off during procedings, was reused using Evostick, attached to one surface only before drying, that leaves a flexible joint.

 

 

Front coupling is temporary. My mate Big Chris, likes to shunt with tender engines and 4038 will be station pilot just for him.

 

 

Back to coaches now. I have had enough of engines for a while.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NigelP]

Here is my Friday afternoon Glastonbury now resurrected as 4038 Queen Berengaria. I have always had a 4038, first on a Wills, then my first Hornby Star mated with a 4,000 gallon tender from a friends Castle, and now, version 3 with a Collett 3,500 type tender as running from Westbury in the late 1930's. The last version was always a must as most of my GW days research has 4038 in this condition.

 

Stage one was to repair the misaligned cab and fill any gaps. Cab side handrails replaced at the same time and the bottom part of the step cut out as per prototype.

 

Star 4038 in progress cab a.jpg

 

At the front end, the smoke box number was removed with knife, file and glass paper with replacement hinge bar from plasticard.

 

Star 4038 in progress front a.jpg

 

Using the existing 4,000 gallon tender frame, a replacement top from a Bachmann 2251 was used. This needs the underframe and steps removing to leave just the top. Moulded handrails (yes Bachmann have moulded handrails as well!) all removed and replaced with wire etc. The tender body needs rubbing down underneath for a flush fit to the Hornby body.

Star 4038 in progress tender a.jpgStar 4038 in progress tender b.jpg

 

Once all this was done tender attached to see how it is all looking.

Star 4038 in progress side a.jpg

 

Finally it is down to painting, lining, plates, coal, lamps and crew. 4038 has a footplate inspector aboard just incase there is another problem with the chassis! The original fall plate, although it broke off during procedings, was reused using Evostick, attached to one surface only before drying, that leaves a flexible joint.

 

star 4038 finished cab.jpg

 

Front coupling is temporary. My mate Big Chris, likes to shunt with tender engines and 4038 will be station pilot just for him.

 

star 4038 finished lh.jpg

star 4038 finished RH.jpg

 

Back to coaches now. I have had enough of engines for a while.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Nice piece of back-dating work, especially the tender, not sure I would have attempted correcting that leaning Pisa cab. Would Queen Berengaria have had that Collet-type cover on the reverse screw gear post 1932? I only have a LHS photo dated 1938, but I couldn't find any other Stars in the 1930's with one. Although most photographs show the LHS. Are you going to add a speedometer cable if it's late 1930's??

 

 

NigelP

[Coach bogie]

Nice piece of back-dating work, especially the tender, not sure I would have attempted correcting that leaning Pisa cab. Would Queen Berengaria have had that Collet-type cover on the reverse screw gear post 1932? I only have a LHS photo dated 1938, but I couldn't find any other Stars in the 1930's with one. Although most photographs show the LHS. Are you going to add a speedometer cable if it's late 1930's??

 

 

NigelP

 

I new I would miss something and it was on my list. Reverser cover gone now - only clips in. Luckily the splasher is fully lined behind it. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

Photo evidence shows 4038 did not have a speedo certainly up to late 1938. I do not have any images of Stars with speedos' in the 1930's. New Halls were still being built as Star replacements without speedo. 

 

I issued a list of elbow/Castle steam pipe numbers on page 1. There is an additional unique engine in 4066 which has a horizontal pipe arrangement on the left hand side, certainly there in 1932. I suspect it is an ejector pipe of some sort. 4016, as a castle, was fitted with an experimental ejector arrangement as a second outside steam pipe on the Left hand side.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[NigelP]

Having read some of the comments regarding QC (or lack thereof) and looked at some of the remedial work necessary on Queen B. above, I suspect the problem is a bit deeper than poor manufacturing/assembly on some of the models. Poor design at the start such that components are not produced to a uniform quality, do not assemble easily and correctly (leaning cabs) or cannot be lined properly (because of molded hand rails getting in the way of the printer) as discussed in this thread are probably at the root of the issue. Not quite GIGO. Comment has been made on the fact that a decent carriage is now £40.00+. Looking at some of my old receipts for carriages and 4-6-0 engines, the ratio used to be around £20.00:£100.00 (RSP or discount, 1:5, give or take a bit). On that basis a decent engine properly designed such that it matches the quality of the carriages it's supposed to pull should now be at least £200.00. Ixion went down this road some years ago (and then got out of it) with their N-scale Manors - in my opinion superb models, great engineering, they took their time over the tooling, and it cost almost £125.00 (with carriages at £25.00, and that must be 4 years ago now). 

 

Putting together a decent 4-6-0 engine from a kit now runs to at least £150.00-£200.00 (the wheel set alone is at least £48.00), and that's without the time it takes to put it together and then paint and decorate. Add DCC sound and it's getting on for £300.00. RTR should mean just that, and I don't think anybody should have to resort to correcting what are often obvious errors (the riveted splasher covers on the Abbey is one example) that should have been dealt with at the design stage). Building to a price often has serious consequences. Yes, some of the detail on RTR models  is fantastic, but is too often done at the expense of getting it correct overall. Leaning cabs, crooked number plates, wavy lining, extra rivets (field day for the counters!), etc., should not be acceptable. I can do that for nothing (and often do), I wouldn't pay somebody to do it for me.

 

Hornby also took the decision to go down the "Railroad" pathway with a deliberate lack of detail (no rivets, molded hand rails, previous generation motors) at a reduced cost. I bought a number of the Llantillo Castles for £50.00 each simply because they would serve as the basis for bashing into something else (the chassis works well with a Saint body on top for example - I'm currently doing Lady of the Lake with curved frames). I wonder if this cost-saving approach has become overall policy. "Design Clever" seems to me to be "Railroad" in another guise.

 

I model in HO as well as 4mm, $150.00-$350.00 for a decent diesel, never mind a steam engine, is quite acceptable. Out of interest I checked on of the smaller HO companies (Bowser Mfg.) that specialize in diesels (and who use the same factories as everybody else in China). First off, for their latest project  - a Canadian GMD SD-40-2 - they are calling for input. I quote: "Canadian Model Railroaders. Bowser is designing this model Canadian. We are not making the EMD version and just making a few changes. This is designed from the ground up as GMD built. Here is the second set of engineering drawings for our all new GMD SD 40-2. I am asking for any input about these designs. If you spot something we have missed or have incorrect please contact me at bowser@bowser-trains.com. If you do have corrections please include proof." How refreshing, a manufacturer who wants to make sure they have got it right. And are not simply reusing existing tooling with a few tweaks. Secondly, this manufacturer supplies 2 levels of detail. Again, from their website: "Traditional Line: Basic model, no extra details, mostly unnumbered, all without sound, all powered units have 8 pin plugs for easy DCC installations" and "Executive Line: Ready to Run, super detailed, numbered, with DCC and Sound or DC with an 8 pin plug for easy DCC module installation." No messing around removing numbers and replacing them. If you want to detail, get the traditional model (which I have often done), RTR spend the bit extra and do nothing. And they sell powered chassis if required (with or without DCC sound). And they carry spare bits as well, and not just for their latest models.

 

Yes you can get a steam engine from Bachmann Spectrum for $100.00 (discount, DCC ready, toy train market), but for a serious level of (correct) detail expect to pay $400.00-$550.00 from the likes of Broadway Imports, Athearn Genesis or MTH (DCC sound). With the current exchange rates a decent engine with sound should be around £250.00-£330.00. Without sound £175.00-£225.00. The Star is currently selling for £108.00 discounted (Hattons, although why the Abbey should be almost £20 more expensive beats me), Hornby must have decided that the UK market will tolerate manufacturing to this cost with commensurate detail, quality and control issues. I think we all appreciate you get what you pay for in China, and that includes QC. Another £25.00 would probably have changed everything

 

Look for a bargain at around £65.00-£75.00 in around 6 months from now. I see a WW-1 Star in unlined green (no wavy lines at least) and no outside steam pipes and with 3 long clerestory carriages (old tooling) will be coming along. Worth buying the set just for the clerestory carriages at less than £10.00 each. I'm actually tempted, given my modeling period of 1900-1915, although there would be that conversion to EM gauge, which on past experience would involve some serious work on the engine.......

 

NigelP

 

[Neal Ball]

Here is my Friday afternoon Glastonbury now resurrected as 4038 Queen Berengaria.......

 

......Finally it is down to painting, lining, plates, coal, lamps and crew. 4038 has a footplate inspector aboard just incase there is another problem with the chassis! The original fall plate, although it broke off during procedings, was reused using Evostick, attached to one surface only before drying, that leaves a flexible joint......

 

Back to coaches now. I have had enough of engines for a while.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

That looks great Mike. Are you taking Commissions !!!!!!!!! lol

 

Maybe that is the answer to all these BR locos coming from the manuafcturers - back date with some care and tlc !

 

Thanks for sharing.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Neal Ball

[robmcg]

Here is my Friday afternoon Glastonbury now resurrected as 4038 Queen Berengaria. I have always had a 4038, first on a Wills, then my first Hornby Star mated with a 4,000 gallon tender from a friends Castle, and now, version 3 with a Collett 3,500 type tender as running from Westbury in the late 1930's. The last version was always a must as most of my GW days research has 4038 in this condition.

 

Stage one was to repair the misaligned cab and fill any gaps. Cab side handrails replaced at the same time and the bottom part of the step cut out as per prototype.

 

Star 4038 in progress cab a.jpg

 

At the front end, the smoke box number was removed with knife, file and glass paper with replacement hinge bar from plasticard.

 

Star 4038 in progress front a.jpg

 

Using the existing 4,000 gallon tender frame, a replacement top from a Bachmann 2251 was used. This needs the underframe and steps removing to leave just the top. Moulded handrails (yes Bachmann have moulded handrails as well!) all removed and replaced with wire etc. The tender body needs rubbing down underneath for a flush fit to the Hornby body.

Star 4038 in progress tender a.jpgStar 4038 in progress tender b.jpg

 

Once all this was done tender attached to see how it is all looking.

Star 4038 in progress side a.jpg

 

Finally it is down to painting, lining, plates, coal, lamps and crew. 4038 has a footplate inspector aboard just incase there is another problem with the chassis! The original fall plate, although it broke off during procedings, was reused using Evostick, attached to one surface only before drying, that leaves a flexible joint.

 

star 4038 finished cab.jpg

 

Front coupling is temporary. My mate Big Chris, likes to shunt with tender engines and 4038 will be station pilot just for him.

 

star 4038 finished lh.jpg

star 4038 finished RH.jpg

 

Back to coaches now. I have had enough of engines for a while.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Superb work! 

 

 

I love the figures in the cab. I wonder where Ozzie Nock would have fitted in?

[NigelP]

I new I would miss something and it was on my list. Reverser cover gone now - only clips in. Luckily the splasher is fully lined behind it. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

Photo evidence shows 4038 did not have a speedo certainly up to late 1938. I do not have any images of Stars with speedos' in the 1930's. New Halls were still being built as Star replacements without speedo. 

 

I issued a list of elbow/Castle steam pipe numbers on page 1. There is an additional unique engine in 4066 which has a horizontal pipe arrangement on the left hand side, certainly there in 1932. I suspect it is an ejector pipe of some sort. 4016, as a castle, was fitted with an experimental ejector arrangement as a second outside steam pipe on the Left hand side.

 

Mike Wiltshire

I suspect speedometers were installed from 1937 on when at the works for a refit. The earliest I could find was 4043 Prince Henry in June 1949. Steam Index (http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/gwrloco.htm#4000)

shows the following articles:

 

Speedometers

Programme extended to Saint and Star classes.

MORE speedometers for G.W.R. locomotives. Rly Gaz., 1937, 67, 996.

SPEEDOMETERS for Great Western Railway Locomotives. Engineering, 1937,144, 661.

SPEEDOMETERS on the G.W.R. Loco. Rly Carr. Wagon Rev., 1937, 43, 399.

 

None of which I have of course and the nearest library likely to have them 3000 miles away. Anybody have these?

 

Plus an interesting little story of a Saint ("Lady of Lyons") doing somewhere between 120-135 mph on a running-in turn in 1932.

 

NigelP

[Legend]

Without quoting all of Nigel Ps posting. When comparing your loco to coach pricing and determining how much we need to pay for quality, while not taking the extreme ( a Hornby LNER teak at £61) I would suggest that £40 is over the average price of a coach. Taking it at £30 would give you the price that most of Hornbys steamers are coming in now. I can also point out that I've just bought perfectly good quality railroad Mk1 s at £15.50 and certainly can see many good coaches available in the £25 range.I don't subscribe to the theory we need to pay more for good QC or that its optional because of price. Good QC should be Inherent in all models we buy. I accept that Hornby are now using many factories and may find it difficult to get a uniform standard in place, but they really need to,otherwise they tarnish their brand name. It's really not optional although I accept it's probably troublesome for them

Edited January 2, 2014 by Legend

[Coach bogie]

Without quoting all of Nigel Ps posting. When comparing your loco to coach pricing and determining how much we need to pay for quality, while not taking the extreme ( a Hornby LNER teak at £61) I would suggest that £40 is over the average price of a coach. Taking it at £30 would give you the price that most of Hornbys steamers are coming in now. I can also point out that I've just bought perfectly good quality railroad Mk1 s at £15.50 and certainly can see many good coaches available in the £25 range.I don't subscribe to the theory we need to pay more for good QC or that its optional because of price. Good QC should be Inherent in all models we buy. I accept that Hornby are now using many factories and may find it difficult to get a uniform standard in place, but they really need to,otherwise they tarnish their brand name. It's really not optional although I accept it's probably troublesome for them

 

The Railroad Mk1's have moulded grab handles, ventilators etc that many now expect to be separate fittings that would take a £15+ Mk1's to the £50+, a price that a high level of detail has to be priced at to cover the 'extra' level of detail. It is not difficult to QC a Railroad Mk1 due to the few parts involved (0 grab & door handles against 24 on a Maunsell), whereas the highly detailed models can contain parts in hundreds not tens, bringing in a more time consuming, expensive and higher rejection risk, whilst still trying to make a profit.

 

As Lincoln says

"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”

Mike Wiltshire

[NigelP]

No arguments about the cost of basic carriages - running some Hawksworths in maroon behind the Abbey will set you back £21-30 each at the moment, as they're heavily discounted from RSP. Looking at one of them however shows that all the handrails and handles are molded, and there are some noticeable depressions in the paneling that shouldn't be there (tool and or possibly molding issues). No real improvement in fact when compared with the old Airfix/Dapol/Hornby Centenary carriages (fine printing excepted). However, a highly detailed and protoypical carriage such as a LNER teak sleeper is £50. Hornby have a Railroad Flying Scotsman A1 to pull them at £61 (1:1 ratio) or Bachmann have an A2 at £89 (discounted from £150, ratio 1:1.5 or 1:3). Hmm. Somethings wrong here. Hornby railroad "teak' carriages at £16 each (ratio 3:1) anyone? The point was (is) that a £100 locomotive does not have the same quality as a £40-50 carriage. That Hattons can discount so deeply (often 50%) also speaks to what they actually cost to make in China. Not a lot!

 

QC (if it's doing it's job) and QA cost money. The client (Hornby) sets the acceptance standards, not the factory. Whatever QC there is would (or should) be to Hornby's specification. Higher standards = tighter manufacturing specifications/more rejects = higher unit price. There are I think 2 issues to the Stars. Firstly, less than 100% fidelity to the prototype where comprises and or expediency will necessarily occur (riveted wheel splashers on an Abbey or the use of Castle cylinders are two examples) is not surprising given the many variations in the Stars as a class and the desire to accommodate as many modelers as possible (read more sales). Secondly, fitness. Cabs that don't fit properly, poor printing, gouges in moldings, crooked number plates, etc. are design/QC issues. That some models appear to be fine (as reported in this thread) points to poor assembly and an inconsistent or low standard of QC rather than any major design issues. Although using molded cab handrails at a prototypical angle and then expecting the printing to be fine even although they get in the way of the printing head speaks to a design issue. I have a feeling that better QC acceptance limits, and the Chinese do know a thing or two about QC (the same factories can produce high quality RTR models to a price), although it would increase the price, would pay dividends for Hornby in the future. I suspect that part of the problem however is that Hornby is not a major client when compared to the likes of Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann USA or Walthers. OO is a small niche market when compared to HO. Not much clout when compared to the American market players. In which case Hornby should perhaps be looking elsewhere for its manufacturing and where it can better control its products.

 

NigelP

[NigelP]

The Railroad Mk1's have moulded grab handles, ventilators etc that many now expect to be separate fittings that would take a £15+ Mk1's to the £50+, a price that a high level of detail has to be priced at to cover the 'extra' level of detail. It is not difficult to QC a Railroad Mk1 due to the few parts involved (0 grab & door handles against 24 on a Maunsell), whereas the highly detailed models can contain parts in hundreds not tens, bringing in a more time consuming, expensive and higher rejection risk, whilst still trying to make a profit.

 

As Lincoln says

"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”

Mike Wiltshire

I prefer Truman's desk sign - "The buck stops here", or Reagan - "Trust, but verify" (often paraphrased by accountants as "In god we trust, everything else requires back-up"). Then most of the people would be happy most of the time. Rivet counters excepted.

 

NigelP

[Mike Riley]

Somebody asked for toplights to go with the Star.  So here are some made from Slaters kits.  The camera flash accentuates the rather anaekic green of the Star compared with the pannier (railmatch IIRC)

 

 

Mike

 

 

[Neal Ball]

Thanks Mike, that looks great!

 

Can we see more of your railway? - 1930's GWR per chance?

Edited January 4, 2014 by Neal Ball

[Mike Riley]

Thanks Neal.  Yes, Cornwall in the early 30s.  I'll post some more pictures but not in this thread.

 

Mike

[robmcg]

Oh joy, my Glastonbury arrived from Liverpool a few minutes ago, photos won't be long, a quick look and nothing bent or marked in any way.

 

 

 

[robmcg]

and here are two tentative new pictures of this undamaged straight model...

 

  many bits added or tweaked with editing mind you..

 

 

 

All of this model was straight as a die, no warps or poor assembly or painting, to my eyes at least. More photos will follow as time allows in the next few days.

 

Edited January 6, 2014 by robmcg

[G-BOAF]

Wait, have they added wire cab handrails to the latest batch? Huge improvement. Or is that photoshop?

[Hilux5972]

It does look like they have added wire cab side rails.

[melmerby]

and here are two tentative new pictures of this undamaged straight model...

 

  many bits added or tweaked with editing mind you..

 

Hornby_Star_4061_2abcde_r1200.jpg

 

Hornby_Star_4061_5abcde_r1200.jpg

 

All of this model was straight as a die, no warps or poor assembly or painting, to my eyes at least. More photos will follow as time allows in the next few days.

And how many spokes on the bogie wheels? (count them!)

 

Keith

Edited January 6, 2014 by melmerby

[Oldddudders]

And how many spokes on the bogie wheels? (count them!)

 

Keith

11? Surely not!

[Mike Riley]

Some one is having a laugh surely not Hornby as SK says "our models are correct".

Is there the correct amount of spokes on the drivers too ?.

 

I think the one having a laugh is robmcg who made a mistake in Photoshop when changing the spokes from 12 to 10..