RMweb Premium Martino Posted December 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 21, 2012 Is there a register of private owner wagons? I apparently had a relative who was a coal merchant in Warrington, then in Lancashire, who (family history insists!) had his own wagons. I'd like to model a version if I can find a photo reference or drawing. The relative was Harry Welsby, so the company may have been Welsby's, or similar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Dear Martino No, not as such. Vast amounts are slowly being published about Private Trader wagons - Lightmoor Press have done about 14 books in recent years. They have a database of what is in their books at A good starting place is the HMRS Steward John Arkell http://hmrs.org.uk/companystewards/stewardsemail.php who has large database of very much of what has been published. The HMRS published a book about Wigan Wagon Works and there is the possibility that they supplied wagons to your relative. Regards Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Martino Posted December 22, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2012 Thank you Paul. Great info. I'll check that out. I'm grateful. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2012 Having researched several PO wagons for my own layout I can probably help a bit. There is no central register of PO wagons. Each wagon was however registered with a railway company who examined them and certified that they were safe to travel on the public system. At lest some of the company regsiters have survived. I don't know exactly which ones but I've been through the Midland ones which are at the national Archives at Kew, in that case it was 10 registers eah with 8000 entries which gave size and equipment details together with owner and often the finance company that lent the koney for it's construction. I would suggest that in Warrington the wagon could have been registered with either the LNWR or the L & Y or possibly even CLC. Bothe the first two have societies who would be able to help you with knowledge of what records survive and where. Another source of information is builders records, often much less complete. The NRM have the complete order books for Cahrles Roberts of Horbury, these were literally rescued from a wheelbarrow whilst on their way to the furnace by Bill Hudsson the book seller who has published 4 books on PO wagons using the Charles Roberts data. A third source of info would e large scale plans of the railway in Warrington and or the RCH railway yearbooks (At the NRM) these often list the various coal merchants at each station which would give you a starter for ten. Another source is looking at photogrpahs and hoping that youa re lucky enough to find the wagon that you need lurking in the background. Finally you have nothing to lose by talking to local coal merchants still in the area, they m,ay well remember your relaives wagons. Local history societies or even a letter to the local newspaper can also help. I managed to get the livery details foir the village coal merchant in the village that I modelled by talking to older people in the viallage who told me the colours and layouts of lettering. this supplemented the info from the register and the Charles Roberts order book to the extent that i was able to get some transfers made. Have fun Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 The only index to PO wagon drawings in magazines is in Leleux, unfortunately these books are like hen's teeth. Good luck with your hunting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Martino Posted December 22, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2012 Thank you Jamie and Tim. Looks like I have a project! I'm very grateful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I've got a 1933 RCH book listing traders name and addresses, but no wagon details. I don't know if this is rare and useful, or if everyone has a copy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I've got a 1933 RCH book listing traders name and addresses, but no wagon details. I don't know if this is rare and useful, or if everyone has a copy. Well not my period, but I've never seen this or heard anyone mention it. Does Turton mention it in his multitude of volumes? It does look very useful for those who are into this period. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Well not my period, but I've never seen this or heard anyone mention it. Does Turton mention it in his multitude of volumes? It does look very useful for those who are into this period. Paul Bartlett My copy is a bit delicate, so if it's important I'd be happy for it to be copied before it disintegrates. It hasn't deteriorated since I last looked at it some years ago, but could fall apart if handled too much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I've got a 1933 RCH book listing traders name and addresses, but no wagon details. I don't know if this is rare and useful, or if everyone has a copy. Sounds useful - how are the traders indexed, by home station, or by traders name? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Name of trader, and presumably, business address. Here's a random sample page. Sticking them all in a database might be useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2012 Didn't the Railway Clearing House have a register of private wagons? If so did it survive? I am sure I have read somewhere or be told that it was used post 1948 as the main means of knowing who to compensate for the loss of their wagons when the coal wagons were passed on to nationalised railway. Looking at the cover of BG John's book doesn't it only cover those traders who joined the Scheme of Commuted Annual Payments? This from memory was a small amount, one shilling per wagon each year rings a bell. Not only were they sent home empty for that amount but if found defective they were repaired, it was an insurance type scheme. There were complaints by the railways that traders were sending their knackered wagons out knowingly hoping that the railways would repair them for nothing. John's book looks like a goldmine of information as most traders were part of the scheme. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I've got lots of stuff I should be doing, but keep finding excuses to avoid! I'd be happy to scan it into a PDF if it will be made use of, as another excuse! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 I've got lots of stuff I should be doing, but keep finding excuses to avoid! I'd be happy to scan it into a PDF if it will be made use of, as another excuse! John, I think that would be a really useful resource, I'd like to know about several local merchants who had wagons, I already know of W. Crocker, and Thomas Styles both of Surbiton, but I'd really like to work out if there was a Hampton Court based coal merchant, and I'm sure other people have similar queries. Thankjs, Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2012 It's not alwasy as easy as that unfortunately. I spent 2 days going through all the Midland PO records looking for local PO's for the Settle and Carlisle. I found a few based near Settle, mainly quyarry companies that took lime out and brought coal back but none for the stations beyond Horton. I then went to the NRM and looked through the Charles Roberts order books and discovered a listing for a skipton based coal merchant. On close inspection an order for 20 wagons was detailed into 10 pairs each pair worked between one coliery and one small S & C Station, thus one Skipton merchant supplied most of the small stations in the Eden valley. The RCH station directory lists the merchants at the stations and also the large scale railway plans show which merchants had space allocated. However the above book is a fantastic resource. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted December 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 22, 2012 It's not alwasy as easy as that unfortunately. I spent 2 days going through all the Midland PO records looking for local PO's for the Settle and Carlisle. I found a few based near Settle, mainly quyarry companies that took lime out and brought coal back but none for the stations beyond Horton. I then went to the NRM and looked through the Charles Roberts order books and discovered a listing for a skipton based coal merchant. On close inspection an order for 20 wagons was detailed into 10 pairs each pair worked between one coliery and one small S & C Station, thus one Skipton merchant supplied most of the small stations in the Eden valley. The RCH station directory lists the merchants at the stations and also the large scale railway plans show which merchants had space allocated. However the above book is a fantastic resource. Jamie Jamie that's very useful information. Having looked at lots of S&C photos I'd wondered about local PO wagons for my own layout, now I know why there aren't any easy to find wagons - except for the quarry ones,some of which I know about. Do you have any details of the one and only coal merchant and his wagons which you can share? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 Hi John If you were able to make a PDF copy of the RCH book, I for one would welcome a copy Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I'll see what I can do. I assume it was very common at the time. I think I either acquired it from Grateley station between Andover and Salisbury, along with a RCH stations directory, or found it on a sales stand at Didcot many years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2012 Jamie that's very useful information. Having looked at lots of S&C photos I'd wondered about local PO wagons for my own layout, now I know why there aren't any easy to find wagons - except for the quarry ones,some of which I know about. Do you have any details of the one and only coal merchant and his wagons which you can share? If you send me a PM I'll look up the details. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Martino, I have a database of most things that have been published and I am sorry to say there are no published photos or drawing records of a Welsby coal merchant in Warrington. Doesn't mean they don't exist as there is lot of partial info still not published. I will drop Keith Turton, author of the Lightmoor books a line and ask him. I should also add that there were not too many coal merchants in the Warrington area with their own wagons as the collieries were so dominant in that area and had huge fleets themselves. They also had many landsale yards for local sale of their output. Merchants tended to work from these yards as coal would have been cheaper. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Martino, Keith confirms he too has no knowledge of such a merchant. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Martino Posted December 23, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2012 Tony, I'm hugely grateful for that. Thank you very much. I fear it may be one if those family 'histories' that is based on rumour and won't go away! Once again very many thanks. Happy Christmas. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Of course some traders didn't "own" wagons, they leased them. Now I've read somewhere that there were firms that leased fleets of wagons (but I can't remember where). So just because someone says no doesn't mean there's no chance! Unfortunately, can't (yet) scotch the rumour! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 The Turton books confirm there were indeed several companies that leased out wagons, both short term and long term hire. This could include painting in the livery of the 'tenant'. A problem with the PO wagon registers is, of course, that many have simply not survived. And the same is true of almost all wagon builder records - there are of course important exceptions. We have been blessed with some wonderful new info on PO wagons in the last few years, and more is still emerging. But the truth is that many, many wagons existed that we no longer have the info on to enable anyone to make an accurate model. Even a record in one of the PO registers that do exist will not normally give you the wagon colour, let alone detail of the lettering. And while it might give the dimensions, you'll be lucky indeed if it states the number of planks or the type of axlebox, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Martino Posted December 24, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted December 24, 2012 My aged mother is currently visiting the family in (now) Cheshire, and is asking around. Although the rumours persist, one of the older aunts (late 80’s) says it rubbish, and he just used to go and load his lorry at the sidings or the colliery! I may just have to use my imagination. Thanks for the considerable help everyone. .....and Merry Chistmas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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