Hornby P2

[doublecee]

Tony's video review as well as the one in print just makes me want to see her going around my garden even more.... Its a shame the Live Steam project is finished, she would have been a great Live Steamer!

[RonnieS]

 the P2 actually pulling 23 carriages 

Tony

What is the longest passenger train you saw in your spotting days? ( I know this is only distantly related to your very informative post) I think I saw a BR rulebooky thing that said 20 coaches was the longest train allowed.

[robmcg]

Only peripherally relevant but some regular carriage movements around Waverley in Edinburgh involved 22 carriages and from memory engines as small as D11s.  Drivers certainly learned the art of starting, judging signals, and 'taking a run' at banks!  source; a book I have which I think is called Waverley Engineman or similar. I think the carriage sidings were at Craigetinney (sp?)  sorry don't have the book to hand.

 

Rob

 

edit, the book was 'Steam Days at Haymarket' by Harry Knox.

Edited November 18, 2013 by robmcg

[coachmann]

ECS stock trains of 20 coaches were regular on the north Wales line in steam days. One in particular sticks in my mind when the sound of the exhaust indicated it must be an express. I had to see this!  When the train appeared from behind the camping coaches heading east, it was headed by the fastest Stanier 8F 2-8-0 I ever saw.

[The Stationmaster]

Tony

What is the longest passenger train you saw in your spotting days? ( I know this is only distantly related to your very informative post) I think I saw a BR rulebooky thing that said 20 coaches was the longest train allowed.

I once rode on the engine working a 15 coach ECS from Old Oak Common to Paddington - quite interesting going up a 1 in 93 gradient via the overbridge on a pannier tank with load 15 behind it.  

[t-b-g]

Richard Hardy wrote about being at Retford during the war. There was a bit of a commotion on the platform and everybody turned out to see what the fuss was about. It was a GCR 4-6-0 Class B7 on a 32 coach train. Apparently the loco had to work rather hard to start the train moving again.

 

I also recall reading about a V2 taking 26 carriages (fully loaded) out of Kings Cross during the war.

 

Tony

[RonnieS]

Tony

What is the longest passenger train you saw in your spotting days? ( I know this is only distantly related to your very informative post) I think I saw a BR rulebooky thing that said 20 coaches was the longest train allowed.

The 20 coach max load was empty stock WR circa '62

[Ian Hargrave]

Richard Hardy wrote about being at Retford during the war. There was a bit of a commotion on the platform and everybody turned out to see what the fuss was about. It was a GCR 4-6-0 Class B7 on a 32 coach train. Apparently the loco had to work rather hard to start the train moving again.

 

I also recall reading about a V2 taking 26 carriages (fully loaded) out of Kings Cross during the war.

 

Tony

My father on leave during the war from a Lincolnshire RAF airfield recalled that the arrived train at King's Cross frequently had its rear coaches on stand inside Gasworks Tunnel.

[robmcg]

I have found my reference to more than twenty coaches on, in 'Steam Days at Haymarket' p.95 and Harry Knox describes  leaving Craigentinny yard crossing the path of a late Pullman, with a D49 'Shire' and 6' 8" drivers, when they got permission to cross 'in a hurry please' from the signalman with a two-trains-of-empties load. It was assumed by all that they had another engine pushing from the carriage sidings with 'over twenty' on, as did the crew of the D49, and it wasn't until they were on the curve leaving Craigentinny that they realised why there had been no answering whistle from the assisting engine when they started, tender first too. There wasn't one. Committed to the 1-in-70 between St Margaret's to the platforms at Waverley, they took a run at the grade with a full boiler and a full head of steam and thought they would be ok if it didn't start to rain.

Then it started to rain.

A lot of slipping, volcano-like exhaust, signalman waving encouragement, they just made it over the top into platforms 10 and 11.

 

Harry Knox relates this story only in the context of his experience of the D49s, which he thereafter held in high regard, and as 'all in a week's work.'

Edited November 18, 2013 by robmcg

[Tony Wright]

In answer to one or two queries.......

 

I don't actually recall counting the carriages in my spotting days but I do remember some huge empty stock trains in the summer. Spotting at 'The Walls' in Chester (see the next BRILL, by the way), my memory is of empty stock coming FROM the N.Wales coast. Whether this was for balancing purposes I don't know but a usual summer Saturday scenario in the late-'50s/early-'60s saw special train after train going TO the coast (using the WR lines as well, as far as Saltney Junction), one block apart. Punctuating all this 'down' excitement would be the empty stock trains coming from N. Wales. Motive power on these could be anything - 8Fs as related by Larry, 9Fs (including a Crosti on one occasion), 'Mickeys', 'Crabs', Stanier Moguls and the occasional 4F. 20 coaches was common I believe - they certainly looked that long - and the stock was mainly LMS or LNER in origin. But, I was but a mere secondary schoolboy at the time, and the memory fades!

One other possible point of interest is that at Chester (as at many other places as well), during the non-summer months there were rows of carriages parked in the sidings; to the left as you left the General heading for N. Wales or Paddington, across the top end of the triangle or parallel with Lightfoot Street. On one occasion, there was Southern stock parked for a time. 

I realise that this is way off the P2 topic, other than (apart from wartime) 20 carriages seems to be a maximum load expected of any loco, but I hope it's of some little interest. I wonder, other than the P2, how many other RTR locos will take that load? Will others report, please? 

[Bernard Lamb]

Not tried more than 12 behind a Hornby A3.

Our mainland friends, with tender drive plus a shaft to the drivers, find no trouble handling more.

I once had 18201 pulling 16, not on my layout I might add, with no trouble.

I am sure it would have handled more given sufficient stock and track.

Bernard

[Godders]

I've just viewed the BRM/Tony Wright review video, 23 carriages is pretty impressive and more than most of us will ever need.

 

However, the intriguing thing is, how? It plainly isn't just weight as Tony has inferred it was not the heaviest locomotive tested. Is the chassis; sprung or compensated. Have Hornby used a new alloy for the wheels and if so will they be using it on other locos? What is the answer?

 

BTW the model looks absolutely superb and despite the fact that I have little money and it is not of any particular pertinence to me I shall probably get one.

 

Finally for anyone to suggest it is not good value for money I suggest you look at some of the offerings we had in the past and compare their price with today's equivalent and you'll see that this and other trains made today are far better value for money.

 

Cheers 

 

Godders

[bluebottle]

I've just viewed the BRM/Tony Wright review video, 23 carriages is pretty impressive and more than most of us will ever need ...

 

As long as it can move three coaches on my inglenook, I won't grumble.

[truffy]

However, the intriguing thing is, how? It plainly isn't just weight as Tony has inferred it was not the heaviest locomotive tested. Is the chassis; sprung or compensated. Have Hornby used a new alloy for the wheels and if so will they be using it on other locos? What is the answer?

Traction tyres?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Not impossible. Hornby now own Rivarossi, and the translucent traction tyre long used on this brand is very inconspicuous.

[Godders]

Traction tyres?

 

I don't remember seeing anything about them in Tony wright's review.

 

Maybe I missed it.

 

cheers

[Tony Wright]

Whether said in jest or not, the P2 I reviewed does not have traction tyres (unless they're so discreet that I didn't notice!) Though it wasn't the heaviest, it's still heavy enough and almost all the weight is adhesive. So, for the scientific amongst us, I wonder what its factor of adhesion might be. Given that all my multi-wheeled locos run just as well (if not better) as 0-6-0s, and they're not compensated, the adhesive weight distribution must be via a continuously changing three-point contact (the centre drivers are always set a twitch higher than the front and rear ones to prevent the dreaded see-saw effect). Though I impart a little springing to the front bogie (either as a downwards-pressing-link or a coil spring on the pivot), the bogies mainly carry their own weight, adding little to the road-holding of a chassis. 

 

I always make my chassis 'tight'. I don't mean with a tight spot but with the minimum of clearance in bearings. In comparison, Hornby's are a bit 'sloppy', with greater clearance in the bearings. Though this doesn't cause poor running (quite the contrary), it means that all the eight drivers are in contact with the rails all the time. Does this aid its adhesion then? I ask the question in all honesty because I once built a Crownline original 'WC' with full compensation, resulting in all tyres taking an equal distribution of the adhesive weight. The result - prototypical slipping on the grand scale. The next one I built was rigid and that slipped less!

 

I think, given its weight, it's because the P2 has eight drivers which makes it such a good puller. Isn't that why the real things were built like that? 

 

What alloy the tyres are made of, I haven't a clue, though it might impart a greater coefficient of friction than, say, nickel silver: in the same way that a steel-tyred driving wheel on nickel-silver track has a greater coefficient of friction than a nickel silver one. But, I'm not a physicist so my observations are anecdotal rather than empirical. What I would say is that my 'testing' of the P2 was a reasonable example of 'cause and effect' - the cause being eight drivers and adequate weight, the effect being that it pulled a 'house brick'. 

[truffy]

Whether said in jest or not, the P2 I reviewed does not have traction tyres

Yes, it was said in jest...and with some concern for a couple of Hornby locos that I'm thinking of re-wheeling and which do have traction tyres. But that's another question for another thread.

[Godders]

Whether said in jest or not, the P2 I reviewed does not have traction tyres (unless they're so discreet that I didn't notice!) Though it wasn't the heaviest, it's still heavy enough and almost all the weight is adhesive. ..................

 

.................I think, given its weight, it's because the P2 has eight drivers which makes it such a good puller. Isn't that why the real things were built like that? .................

 

 

Hi Tony 

 

Thanks for the confirmation about the traction tyres.

 

In your other reviews have you done similar haulage tests with other eight coupled or ten coupled locos and noted similar haulage abilities. 

 

I know this is off topic but the information would be useful.

 

Thanks

 

Godders

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony 

 

Thanks for the confirmation about the traction tyres.

 

In your other reviews have you done similar haulage tests with other eight coupled or ten coupled locos and noted similar haulage abilities. 

 

I know this is off topic but the information would be useful.

 

Thanks

 

Godders

 

I must admit to not conducting haulage tests in the most scientific of ways. By that, I mean I hang a 'typical' prototype load behind the model and see what it can do.

Though largely not eight or ten-coupled, some recent models have given the following anecdotal results....

 

Hornby's Star pulled eight plastic-based carriages (Bachmann Mk.1s) with little trouble. Any more and it started to slip a bit.

 

Bachmann's 4Fs hauled 25 plastic wagons with ease - 30 and there was some slipping, and more was a struggle.

 

Bachmann's 10000 and 10001 both flew round independently with 13 carriages. 15 and there was some little 'struggling'; 20 was a limit without slipping, but over half the rake was kit-built metal carriages.

 

Heljan's Class 16. 40 wagons, no trouble at all.

 

My railway has generous curves, and, because my stock is a real mixture of kit-built and proprietary items it would be unlikely if anyone else could replicate the same conditions exactly. So, I can only report in this highly subjective manner. With regard to the Hornby P2, it pulled my ten-car 'Queen of Scots' with such ease that we kept on adding more carriages. Given that the rake is a heavy meld of Hornby/Comet/Trice components, say, ten Bachmann Mk.1s would have been easier. I reckon 25-30 Bachmann Mk.1s could have been taken with relative ease, but that's a guess because rakes of that length, effectively going through 180 degrees (the loco going 'north', the brake van going 'south' at the same time), become unstable on curves. I'm sure many will report in saying that my results aren't typical, their own locos being able to take more or less, dependent on the conditions.

 

A relatively recent Bachmann 'Austerity' took 40 plastic wagons with ease and could have taken more, though not as many as my DJH ones. A few years ago I compared haulage between Bachmann and Hornby's 9Fs and there was nothing to choose between them - 45+ wagons with little effort, but my DJH ones will take more. 

 

Highly-unscientific I know, but I hope this helps.  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Go on, be more scientific! A little bit of cotton or fishing line running over a pinpoint wagon axle as pulley over the layout edge, aligned with a straight length of level track, and you have a weight lifting rig. The best in OO steam RTR is the Bach 9F, good for about 70g before slipping sets in.

[Barry O]

I must admit to not conducting haulage tests in the most scientific of ways. By that, I mean I hang a 'typical' prototype load behind the model and see what it can do.

Though largely not eight or ten-coupled, some recent models have given the following anecdotal results....

 

Hornby's Star pulled eight plastic-based carriages (Bachmann Mk.1s) with little trouble. Any more and it started to slip a bit.

 

Bachmann's 4Fs hauled 25 plastic wagons with ease - 30 and there was some slipping, and more was a struggle.

 

Bachmann's 10000 and 10001 both flew round independently with 13 carriages. 15 and there was some little 'struggling'; 20 was a limit without slipping, but over half the rake was kit-built metal carriages.

 

Heljan's Class 16. 40 wagons, no trouble at all.

 

Proto 2000 E8s - one motor, a flywheel and all axle drive Co-Co - three rakes of coaches on Stoke Summit....  

 

I am not sure about the durability of some of the RTR offerings - some have had problems with wear on one or two exhibition layouts - my biggest problem is the size of the flanges on the wheels... 

[Stevelewis]

Just  a  quick  aside  here  re  8 coupled  locos:

 

We found  the  superbly  performing  Hornby 01  2-8-0  would  easily  haul  around 45 to 50  plastic  4 wheel wagons (95% of  these  being Bachmann)

 

Whereas  the  Hornby  8f  (  the most  recent  weathered version  around 2yrs old)  would  slip  with  more  than  20 of the same  wagons on . 

 

Not  really able to give a reason,  the locos  weigh  approx the  same, the  tender wheels on both are free running, the 01  has  a flywheel but  this  is such a small diameter one that I cant see that making  much difference to the  haulage capacity

[Mike Riley]

I have carried out the test suggested by 34C and the best I got was 65g for a Bachmann Class 66.  The best of my steam locos was a Hornby 61xx at 45g.  The new Hornby Star only managed around 20g.  It seemed that older locos were better than new ones.  The test was made on a programming track with Peco code 100 track, thoroughly cleaned beforehand.  Other things being equal (weight, number of drivers) It is all down to the coefficient of friction between wheel and rail and I think wear of the wheel surface over time increases the friction.

 

On the layout, the Star is the worst for wheel slip of all my tender engines.  I'm surprised that Tony Wright managed 8 coaches.

 

Mike

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Provided the motor and gear train aren't limiting (If it is smooth running and the wheels slip when the loco is held back, they are not) then there are only three significant factors that influence what a model loco can haul. These are:

 

Weight on the driven wheels,

which acts on whatever factor of adhesion obtains between the driven wheels and the rail to determine the 'pull' available,

MINUS the drag from any unpowered wheels.

 

The Stanier 2-8-0 model is relatively light, about 210 grams on the coupled wheels, and both the pony truck and tender are heavy and tend to dragginess. The one I tested managed 28g force without pony truck and tender; good for around 60 plastic bodied wagons on level track. Unfortunately between them the pony truck and tender roughly halved that to about 14g force available, somewhere around 25 - 30 wagons on level track. Fix the tender and truck and it does much better, add weight to the loco and better again: the motor and gear train are more than adequate.

 

The Thompson 2-8-0 has 275g on the coupled wheels, without pony truck and tender good for just shy of 40g force (similar factor of adhesion between driven wheel tyres and rail as the Stanier model). With the pony truck and tender on, this came down to 34g, good for about 70 RTR wagons on level track. (I do find that after a year or two of operation, Hornby wiper pick ups on the tender wheels start acting as brakes. No chance on mine, they have been removed.)

 

Test methodically and it is very easy to understand where the problems are.