Dave777 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Have to confess that I'm really struggling with the whole format at the moment. Perhaps a couple of Qs might clear up some of my confusion: 1) So is my understanding correct that instead of the old 'Layouts' forum where someone started a thread about their layout and then posted updates as progress went along - and people posted replies as they wished - now people start a blog and make updates as new blog entries, and then comments from others regarding each entry are made as comments? So instead of something like this... First post - comment - comment - update - comment - comment - comment - update - comment - comment ...it's now more like this... First post comment comment update comment comment comment update comment comment So instead of just page after page of updates and comments all mixed in together it's now a more structured approach where specific comments are tied more to specific entries?. If this is the aim, then that seems like an interesting thing to try (if it's not like that, then I've utterly misunderstood the concept!). I guess one of the problems is that the term 'blog' to me means more of a thoughts/comments type approach and that's not what we've arrived at. That's not a problem, just an adjustment of the general understanding around the term 'blog'. 2) Secondly, is there a 'general' area anymore or has that disappeared? (interestingly, a lot of the 'here's a thought' -type stuff that used to get posted in here would now make suitable blog entries!) Overall it seems interesting. Some things I'm not personally keen on (like seperate forums for manufacturers), and I need to adjust my thinking around the whole blog thing (it's not a blog as such, it's a layout thread that uses blog software), and the blogs feel a bit 'out there' at the moment and somehow not quite part of the overall forum. So struggling to get my head around some of it, can't say I'm really liking it, but willing to see how it develops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Oh, now I'm more confused. I've just worked out that there's also a 'Layout topics' forum area, so now I don't understand how the blog and layout thread forums work alongside each other? So is the idea that people either start a traditional 'my layout' forum thread OR a blog? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod6 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Dave For one claiming to be struggling with the entire format you seem to have grasped the main practical differences between workshop/layout topics and blogs OK :icon_thumbsup2: The re-appearance of the 'traditional' layout forum is only recent http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/1089-thread-vs-blog/page__view__findpost__p__7449 There is much material with which to learn about the new site in the 'Forum Help' and 'How-to Guides'. As for the General Forum, this was dropped because it was abused so much on the old site by members who couldn't be bothered to work out what subforum their topic should go in, to the extent that it became a dumping ground for all manner of irrelevant stuff and caused the admin team a lot of work. We are thinking about some kind of replacement, and there are some model railway topics which genuinely don't fit elsewhere, but it will be on a strictly controlled and probably close-to-zero tolerance basis if it reappears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hilton Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 So is my understanding correct that instead of the old 'Layouts' forum where someone started a thread about their layout and then posted updates as progress went along - and people posted replies as they wished - now people start a blog and make updates as new blog entries, and then comments from others regarding each entry are made as comments? So instead of something like this... First post - comment - comment - update - comment - comment - comment - update - comment - comment ...it's now more like this... First post comment comment update comment comment comment update comment comment So instead of just page after page of updates and comments all mixed in together it's now a more structured approach where specific comments are tied more to specific entries?. If this is the aim, then that seems like an interesting thing to try (if it's not like that, then I've utterly misunderstood the concept!). I guess one of the problems is that the term 'blog' to me means more of a thoughts/comments type approach and that's not what we've arrived at. That's not a problem, just an adjustment of the general understanding around the term 'blog'. That's right - much more structured!! Blog just is short for 'Web Log' - and a log of your updates and thoughts on a model or layout is just the same as posting those musings in a thread. I personally prefer the layout of the blogs - much tidier! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 28, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 28, 2009 So is the idea that people either start a traditional 'my layout' forum thread OR a blog? Hi Dave, Yes, your choice. However, there is a difficulty with the blogs -- when someone adds a comment, it doesn't appear in the list of Active Topics or New Posts. The only way to know about and take part in a discussion resulting from a blog entry is to repeatedly visit the blog. Whereas with a normal topic it's exactly the same as Old RMweb -- each post generates an entry in the Active lists and sends an email notification to those members subscribed to the topic. So a blog is good for a personal narrative where you don't expect much substantive discussion to flow from it. You can think of a blog as your own private bit of RMweb. A normal discussion topic is better where you want or expect significant contributions from others. You can have both -- put the practical construction stuff in a topic, and link to it from your blog where you explain the history and origins of your layout. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Okay, thanks for the explanations. There's massive irony for me in all this because the very reason I set up my own website last May was the lack of 'blog' style entries on existing modelling forums! What I wanted was to be able to have a 'thought of the day' blog (being about more general hobby aspects, usually unrelated to current modelling activities) and then have my modelling efforts corralled alongside instead of being spread across various threads across various parts of a forum. This was what I went ahead and did with my 'The Diary' and seperate layout pages on the website. If this had existed 6 months ago I probably would have grasped it with both hands, so it's an interesting direction to go in. Too late now of course, and from what I've seen so far I'm not sure that a 'thought of the day' type blog is really what's trying to be achieved here (the ones I've read seem to be traditional 'my layout' forum threads now being presented in blog format). Should be interesting to watch developments anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hi Dave But some of us on here think totally differently to Martin And think the age of the thread for kitbuilds and layouts is "non cool" Although it is true what Martin says that currently if you reply to a blog the current system does not keep you informed of subsequent replies (the word comment is just another term) the blog owner does get an email informing them of the contribution. So there is a problem with keeping up to date with fast moving replies Sadly, this is true even if you do mark the blog as a tracked/watched blog. However the point about structure is well observed and the blog format offers much more to both the reader as well as the OP. So a blog is good for a personal narrative where you don't expect much substantive discussion to flow from it. You can think of a blog as your own private bit of RMweb. A normal discussion topic is better where you want or expect significant contributions from others. If it was "personal" we would probably go away and do that elsewhere. But a lot of effort goes into making a blog - some may say more than in posting a quick comment in a forum thread. This is the bit I most strongly disagree with. It remains a personal choice as to which is "better" in presenting these topics and discussions and we have the ability now to do either or indeed both if we choose to. Although I like blogs I am not confining my use of RMWeb to just blogs, and I am quite happy for people to continue using the forum thread style. Most of all I would prefer that we all keep an open mind and stop arguing about one is right and one is wrong. So don't let either of us persuade you one way or the other - just give it some time and a little effort and then make your own mind up about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitbull1845 Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Dave, I'm glad you asked those questions because I too have been a little confused, having read the subsequent replies its starting to make more sense. So much so that I may start my own blog/topic/thread???? I am starting to get my head around it, its just taking a bit longer than I would like. But thats down to me not the RMweb team... Thanks also to those who have taken the time to explain it... I love you guys! Cheers Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 29, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2009 Although it is true what Martin says that currently if you reply to a blog the current system does not keep you informed of subsequent replies Hi Kenton, What's the significance of underlining "currently"? Do you know something we don't? Obviously any opinion I express is based on the current implementation of this site. If it's about to change, all bets are off. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Nope - I just believe in the future ... and that one day programmers will understand the needs of their users (though given Microsoft's history - I perhaps I should doubt it) no harm in being a little optimistic and that there is some setting deep in there that even Andy hasn't stumbled upon. But certainly no reason to be anti blogs or anti threads just because they do not yet do everything the way we would like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 29, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2009 But certainly no reason to be anti blogs or anti threads just because they do not yet do everything the way we would like. Hi Kenton, Each to his own of course. But the lack of notifications is not just "not yet do everything the way we would like" -- it's critical to the way I use this site and other forums. I rely on notifications entirely -- I don't have time to keep revisiting web sites to see if anything has been added. I can't be the only one. I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that the blog comments are in the database as simply edits to the original entry. That's why they are given the dismissive name "comments", rather than independent "replies" in their own right. Getting notifications of a new comment may not be straightforward. I'm sorely tempted to buy a copy of IP.Board and install it on Data 1 as a learning exercise. There is a lot of Ajax stuff in the files which is new to me, and would be handy to know more about. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that the blog comments are in the database as simply edits to the original entry. That's why they are given the dismissive name "comments", rather than independent "replies" in their own right. Getting notifications of a new comment may not be straightforward. I have a (non-modelling) blog on blogger.com, and whenever anyone leaves a comment a copy is automatically forwarded to my email address. I think there is also the facility for the person leaving the comment to be informed if anyone else subsequently comments. The software on here could be utterly different, of course, but I thought it worth making the point that some blogs do have the ability for notifications of the sort you've described. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Each to his own of course. But the lack of notifications is not just "not yet do everything the way we would like" -- it's critical to the way I use this site and other forums. I rely on notifications entirely -- I don't have time to keep revisiting web sites to see if anything has been added. I can't be the only one. The emphasis on I but you are probably right you are not the only one who interacts with RMWeb that way. I, on the other hand just ignore most emails, sort of doing a once a day look to see if I missed anything important. I spend most of my time with both the Blog "Active Topics" and forum "Active Topics" on repeated refresh. So much so that except after log on - or being away from the house/pc - I rarely need to go off page 1 or 2. I then open eye catching topics or ones I remember as being of interest in separate browser tabs and work back through them...... but then I'm a sad case having the PC on my workbench I acknowledge that for you and others the blogs (especially the failing to notify) is a particular down side. However, for others the advantages of blogs far outweigh this, and I certainly don't see it as a reason to discourage others from using the blogs. .... besides we can now use your routine for searching them I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that the blog comments are in the database as simply edits to the original entry. That's why they are given the dismissive name "comments", rather than independent "replies" in their own right. I think you are wrong here (Andy may be able to confirm). I think the comments are listed by the unique identifier [cid] probably in their own normalised table. This is used when you edit/quote/delete/report a "comment/reply" to a blog page/entry [eid] of a particular blog/chapter [blogid]. The system designers would need putting againt a wall and shooting if they were so incompetent as to use text markers and free text for storage. Getting notifications of a new comment may not be straightforward. In theory it should be. There is already a table in there or a preset query on the database to list the threads "watched" for each user and a routine to send notifications to the user of any "additional/modified" reply, A similar table/query also exists (you can use it) to list all blogs that you have marked as "tracked" - it cannot be beyond capability of the programmers to join up the dots. NB. this is not a reflection of Andy's use of the software - I do not expect him to be writing php/sql files to add on to what shouldd be in the core of the software. But once settled down there should be a user's forum of the software providers that such issues could be raised on. It is commercial after all and he is a customer. I'm sorely tempted to buy a copy of IP.Board and install it on Data 1 as a learning exercise. I would agree, but life is too short and I don't get enough time to do everything I want to as it is like modeling .. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 29, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 29, 2009 But once settled down there should be a user's forum of the software providers that such issues could be raised on. It is commercial after all and he is a customer. Hi Kenton, See: http://community.invisionpower.com p.s. until 2-Nov -- $25 off IP.B Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Someone has managed to add 'Last Comment' info to blog, see user "Myr" posting here: http://community.invisionpower.com/topic/291502-very-unhappy-with-ip-blog-2-0/ Its clearly not just an issue on rmweb that people want updating on the last comment on other people's blogs (i get notified when someone comments on my main blog although I didn't on my secondary one, will have to check that). Comments don't turn up in active blog content Kenton so its no use looking there, you have to browse every blog and look at last comment. Fenman we mean notifying comments on other peoples blogs (ie tracked blogs). You can also have multiple blogs but not manage them properly or chose a 'primary' one to appear as your book icon. Unfinished functionality basically. Btw Dave77 earlier said a blog was: first post comment update comment etc its not its: update comment first post ie the opposite direction so you need to find the first every post to find someone intro to their layout or put such info in the sidebar in a custom box. What I wanted was to be able to have a 'thought of the day' blog (being about more general hobby aspects, usually unrelated to current modelling activities) and then have my modelling efforts corralled alongside instead of being spread across various threads across various parts of a forum. I really hope people DON'T use them like that, I thought that was the kind of chaff Andy wanted to cut down on and concentrate on actual modelling. I think that is fine in private blogs elsewhere. I do like the blog idea but the software is letting the implementation down (lack of tag searching across blogs is another issue). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Comments don't turn up in active blog content <b>Kenton </b>so its no use looking there, you have to browse every blog and look at last comment. I didn't say that they did. I certainly hope I didn't imply that they did. I was merely stating that was the way I followed RMWeb blogs and forums as opposed to Martin's equally valid email notification watch. Though the email watch does at least notify you of comments posted on your own blog. Again proving that the routines are already built in to the software just not called correctly. I am first to acknowledge (perhaps not first, but ME2), that not having some list of comments added is a real issue. Yesterday, I was pursuing in a different thread if it was possible to resolve through the "RSS Fetcher" member - what I saw as a "local" fix to the problem - though I see now that this too is external. As for people using their blogs for a diary of "what I ate for breakfast" style then I don't really care too much as long as when they post something really useful I can still find it and ask/question/comment on it. But I guess Andy didn't put blogs under the heading "Layouts & Workbench Topics/Blogs" without some thought about what he would like to see there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I really hope people DON'T use them like that, I thought that was the kind of chaff Andy wanted to cut down on and concentrate on actual modelling. I think that is fine in private blogs elsewhere. Not sure if there's been a misunderstanding there or if we genuinely want/expected different things from the blogs. When I spoke of 'thought of the day' stuff I mentioned that it would still be railway modelling hobby related (and most definitely not 'what I had for breakfast' posts, to use Kenton's example), so I'm not sure if that qualifies as 'chaff' or not. I don't want to restart the 'what is wheat/what is chaff' debate again, but would you consider this chaff: http://www.gauginginterest.com/Diary/diaryaugust.html It's not directly related to what I'm currently working on (apart from the 'sausages' entry of 08 Aug) but does the various topics I've chatted about there fall into the chaff area that Andy wants to remove? I don't have any issue if you think it does (and I mean that, say what you like about it because I mainly post it for me and not anyone else!), I'm just surprised that the sort of stuff I've chatted about there might be viewed as 'Oh dear yes, that's just the sort of worthless chaff we definitely want to keep away from here'. I'm bias of course because I wrote it, but to me it seems relevant and just the sort of discussion areas/subjects that forums like this exist for. But, again, perhaps the idea is indeed to move away from that now. I know of one other forum that started up a while back with the express intention of weeding out all the chaff and getting back to the modelling, and while it's debatable if that's been achieved or not RMWeb isn't the first to try it - the problem is the same however, namely what is chaff and what isn't. A blog that chats about hobby related areas to me isn't chaff, but perhaps for others it is. Perhaps I've missed it (and would be grateful for a link if I have) but from exploring the blog possibilities so far I can't see any real guidance around what is expected in the blogs other than the usual stuff about no personal attacks, illegal stuff, etc, etc. At the moment - and I'm fully aware this is just a personal view - I'm a little dissapointed that after all the work that's gone into creating the new blog format that 'all' it's going to be used for is to present 'my layout' threads as blogs. I was considering duplicating my own website as a blog on here purely from a 'and here's what else you can do with it' -effort, but this does now raise the question as to what is and isn't expected from the blogs. Are they meant to be purely layout/workbench blogs or is a more 'thought of the day' approach acceptable? (emphasising once again that it's still hobby related and not 'my breakfast' crap (because I'm in total agreement there!)). If my style of ramblings is considered chaff, then I'll happily keep them where they are. (btw, I can't seem to change font sizes when editing posts, clicking on the dropdown for selecting size doesn't work) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Dave From the way the forum is currently set up, it is clear that the blogs are intended just for workbench and layout topics, at least for now, and not for the general essay/musings as in your own blog. Whether or not this is something that Andy is keeping under review I don't know. Certainly your blog would not be regarded as 'chaff' but then equally it would not (IMO) be suitable for the RMWeb blog area as things stand for the reason I stated in the first sentence. There is actually nowhere in the forum at the moment where general musings and philosophising on model railways can comfortably sit. I guess like a number of issues this will be addressed once the forum has had a bit more shake-down time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 30, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2009 Hi Dave, Your link in clickable form: http://www.gauginginterest.com/Diary/diaryaugust.html Your link failed because you copied and pasted formatted HTML as plain text. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Thanks Martin, now fixed. And thanks for the clarification Rod. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Dave, your previous post is interesting. I think there's a couple of factors in play as regards the content. (1) Folks are reading a lot into the format, as if the format of the area prescribes a particular content style and tone. (2) I suspect there's a bit of manipulation going on by some parties - possibly those who wished to prescribe a set format for how we all used the old forum threads. I'm sure I've read a remark by Andy in the early days of the new-look forum that the intent was to let the blogs evolve. Perhaps to suit my own wishes, I'd be quite happy for a blog to cover some wide ground - as long as there's some sort of 'theme' to it to tie it all together. For instance, I'll probably be posting my thoughts and a few pics when I next take a trip down into the neck of the woods I model. It might not have any direct relevance to what is on the WB or layout plans, but is still thematically linked. Likewise with links to prototype images on the web. One could perhaps negate the scattergun aspect of this style of content by making considered use of index and tags. Possibly the acid test of any blog will be the read count. If folk don't take the time to read, return or comment well perhaps you're not appealing to the collective test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 30, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2009 Hi Dave, Your link in clickable form: http://www.gaugingin...iaryaugust.html (Your link failed because you copied and pasted formatted HTML as plain text.) My feeling (and probably mine alone ) is that what you have there is exactly what the RMweb blogs are for, and not the detailed constructional stuff. That is much better done in a conventional topic, which can of course be linked easily to/from your blog. Indeed, that seems to be the intention of the software authors. Here is the bumf from their web site for the Blog component: IP.Blog allows your users to create their very own blog within your community, and because it's part of our Community Suite, it's fully integrated and easy to use! Give users their own blog: Users can create their very own blog within your community, giving them their own space but still retaining your branding. So it's designed as a sort of mini web site for each member to use for their own purposes. In contradistinction to a forum topic, which is a communal space to which everyone is invited to contribute on equal terms. Consequently the comments area in the blogs is downgraded to the equivalent of a web site "guest book" and is not designed in the software for active discussions visible to the whole board. I don't know how to define "chaff", but whatever it is the blogs are the obvious place for it. And by filtering it off into the blogs, the main topic areas are left free of "chaff" to concentrate on the practical matters of building and operating model railways. That was my understanding of moving to the new software. But nowhere on the site at present is there a clear statement of how it should be used, so each member is making it up as he goes along. There's no harm in that as a means of finding out what members actually want. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Thanks for that too, Jamie. As I've mentioned, I'm more than aware that part of my struggle at the moment is to adjust my own idea around what a blog is - I didn't think it would be 'just' layout/workbench stuff, so when I came on here and saw what they were being used for I was like 'Oh... that's not what I expected', and that's probably all it is really - just me adjusting my thinking around what to expect from it. I was going to post yesterday something about how it all might evolve and you've touched upon that point very well (and indeed it seems Andy might have done too). Thinking that it would all be 'musings' blogs I was pondering that there would be an explosion of these initially and then over time the better ones would come to the fore and the less popular ones would fall by the wayside, and we would be left with a smaller number of quality blogs. As you say, if a blog isn't getting read then the wrong stuff is indeed probably being posted. But since it appears a more modelling-based approach is what's generally required then that particular sort of evolution I was going to talk about may not occur. Edit: And now I've just seen Martin's comments which swing back the other way and seem to agree with my own expectations of what the blogs were going to be about! Coo, it's exciting times isn't it! Like explorers trying to choose the best route through a jungle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Perhaps I've missed it (and would be grateful for a link if I have) but from exploring the blog possibilities so far I can't see any real guidance around what is expected in the blogs other than the usual stuff about no personal attacks, illegal stuff, etc, etc. No I don't think you have missed anything. The fact that Andy has not entered this discussion with a definition of how the blogs are to be used (and I am not sure if he ever will) is an indication to me, and possibly others, that he is relatively at ease with how they will develop, probably content to sit back and give us a relatively free reign to use them in any way that we may dream up. To me, from the start of the new site and from the hints on RMWeb3, it has been clear that the original thoughts were very much on developing the old layout and work bench threads into something much more user and reader friendly. To some extent that has worked,, but there are quite serious issues with the underlying software that has caused a few to be unsatisfied with the change. Others are just against change in any form, and are perhaps using the faults in the software to try to help dissuade others from using the blogs in that way. The heated argument on re-introducing a "Layout" area in the forum - one I couldn't quite see the point of as nothing was stopping a member creating such a thread in other areas -- but which has now been resolved by adding such a section, now means that both extremes should be content and have the choice. So post anything you like to the blog or to a thread (within the rules of course) until Andy tells you otherwise. I, for one, would rather see members actually posting something than sitting there silent or worse, being put off by arguments about which area or style it should be posted in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted October 30, 2009 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 ? The fact that Andy has not entered this discussion with a definition of how the blogs are to be used (and I am not sure if he ever will) is an indication to me, and possibly others, that he is relatively at ease with how they will develop, probably content to sit back and give us a relatively free reign to use them in any way that we may dream up.? Indeed that is so, I didn't wish to be prescriptive in the format; I'd rather see individuality and personality shine through. The blogs are more of a descriptive or inspirational tool than a conventional topic to be taken at the pace of the contributor more than forum posters. People will follows individual blogs as much, if not more than, the previous topic format based on what they like to read. In the old format you wouldn't put a layout topic in the workbench or vice versa; in this format it's a little more freestyle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.