GWR Poster boards and early Structure Colours

[gwrrob]

Although way off topic but the mention of Kidderminster station enables me to show a photo taken last week changed to greyscale to give you an idea of colours in early photos.This shows the museum canopy before and after photo treatment.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Although way off topic but the mention of Kidderminster station enables me to show a photo taken last week changed to greyscale to give you an idea of colours in early photos.This shows the museum canopy before and after photo treatment.

One thing to note is the colours of light and dark stone on the building to the left is different to those on the right above the cab roof, the one on the right having more of a yellow content.

[The Stationmaster]

A vintage turn of the century photo of Kiddiminster although turn of 21st Century rather than turn of the 20th Century! One thing it does show though is how the white window frames show up in a black & white photo unlike when they are painted chocolate as per the period under discussion. 

Very much turn of the 21st century I think - especially as that is the SVR's station at Kidderminster and not the GWR one.

[57xx]

Sorry Nick, as David and Mike have rightly pointed out, it is indeed a 21st century picture, in fact a section the one provided on the link by Mikkel. He wondered what it would look like in a "period" photo, so I indulged in a bit of photshopskullduggery. The main aim was, as you stated, to show how old monochromatic photos may need some careful observation and interpreting. For example the "light stone" on the panelling of the fence behind the bufferstops appears a different shade to the light stone on the valence, yet in the original it is obviously the same colour, similarly the dark stone on the barge-boards.

[buffalo]

Thanks for the explanation, Ric. 1980s wasn't a bad guess then for an earliest possible date based entirely on picture content    Does your "photshopskullduggery" involve a simple conversion to greyscale or something more advanced that tries to match the sensitivity of a particular emulsion? The lightness of the buffer beam red suggests to me that it's just a greyscale conversion. One of the problems with real old photos is the continued use of orthochromatic and the slow adoption of panchromatic emulsions throughout the period of interest.

 

Nick

[57xx]

This was indeed a "quick and dirty" conversion, although not quite a straight greyscale change, and I didn't try and match any film emulsions. I just did an adjustment of hue/saturation master channel and then added some grain, noise and artefacts on the picture. I will have another play with individual colour channels when I have more time to try and reproduce the reds better as I suspect this would also alter the appearance of the dark stone too.

Edited December 30, 2012 by 57xx

[Mikkel]

A clever little trick Ric :-)

 

And it has me thrown back into doubt. I did a quick and dirty greyscale conversion of the Flickr image myself just now (better not post it here as that would infringe on copyright), and to me the result leaves a clear and convincing impression of a three-tone livery - while in fact it is only two-tone with the light reflecting differently on the various parts.

 

I'm off to check photos again, clearly double-checking is needed.

[buffalo]

...I'm off to check photos again, clearly double-checking is needed.

Yes, I've some doubts about some of the examples I mentioned earlier. Careful examination of the Cheddar valley photos has convinced me that the effect is simply due to differences in the way the sunlight is striking and reflecting from the moulded shapes. Similar shadowing can be seen on the adjacent stonework which has a similar shaped moulding.

 

However, looking back at Edwardian Enterprise, I can't always dismiss the three colour scheme so easily. Take, for example, the two photos of Bishop's Cleeve on p69. In the lower photo, the gable end of the main building is not in direct sunlight, but shadowing may still explain the dark area beneath the sloping edges of the roof. Now look at the horizontal guttering and, in particular, the downpipe. If we invoke shadows to explain the darkness of the gutter, then how do we explain that the downpipe appears to be the same? Similarly on the small building opposite, the gutter and downpipe appear darker.

 

Now look at the upper photo where the building ends are lit by oblique sunlight. Here, the three-colour effect is again present with the guttering in the darkest shade. However, the downpipe at this end appears to be in what I take to be dark stone. It appears to be the same as the horizontal timbers of the valance and the post and screen leading to the Gents'.

 

Is there a further differential effect to consider here, that of similar paints on wood and metal surfaces?

 

Nick

Edited December 30, 2012 by buffalo

[57xx]

Here's a properly colour balanced version of the previous picture, simulating the orthochromatic film stock of the early 20th century referred to earlier by Nick:

 

 

Comparing with the earlier grey-scale conversion, you can see how much the reds have darkened.

 

re copyright, the author of the original photo allows it's use and modification under Creative Commons.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

How ever much you change the effect the white windows are still white and not Chocolate brown

[Mikkel]

Yes, no doubt about that! 

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Another photo of Wycombe lighting, angle of dangle, sunlight etc, there is still three colours on the canopy. The colours the signal box seem different to the newly built station, although as I stated earlier the signal department had a different style to that of stations with white window sashes from early on.

As a bit of added info is the signal box in the photo was only located here for a short time during rebuilding of the station, it opened in June 1903 and closed in 1906 then it was moved to Monorowen which I think is in Wales can anyone confirm.

 

The building in the background on the left above the ballast wagons is the original Brunel Terminus trainshed the only photo of this building I have pre1940.

 

 

 

David 
 

Edited December 30, 2012 by David Bigcheeseplant

[57xx]

How ever much you change the effect the white windows are still white and not Chocolate brown

Absolutely, no disputing that.

[buffalo]

Another photo of Wycombe...

Now that is a very good example, David. The low angle of the sunlight directly onto the face of the awning makes it very difficult to argue against three colours. There is some shadow below the horizontal boarding (dark stone) and there must be some shadow amongst the guttering and upper moulding but, even though there is a trace of a lighter colour in that upper part, it is still darker than the two lower sections where the incident angle is roughly the same.

 

There's a photo of Hall Green, probably not long after opening in 1908, in Clark's An Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations, vol 2, showing a similar type of building with similar lighting where the appearance is much the same. In the same book is also one of the similar station at Earlswood Lakes, built at the same time on the same line. This is at a much later date but again has similar lighting and it clearly has just light and dark stone on the valance with no trace of the darker colour. Even allowing for differences in film emulsions, it would be difficult to argue that the two awnings are painted in the same style.

 

Nick

[David Bigcheeseplant]

If you compare both the black and white photos of Kiddiminster with Wycombe the light stone at Wycombe is much lighter which makes me belive it's stone No.1 rather than stone No.2. The tonel shade of No. 3 is simular in both the kiddiminster photo and Wycombe.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

An original photo I purchaced this year which I think is Bourne End and never before seen or published. It does give a very plesent feel of a Victorian or Edwardian summer, if you look at the pillar supporting the canopy then the bottom part is very dark it then changes to a lighter colour but this is still not as light as the corner of the outside vallance that you can see at the top of the photo, again at least a three colour livery.

 

David

[N15class]

Thanks for all that information Nick, it confirms all my suspicions and backs up David's conclusions. You're quite right about the proliferation of posters in my chosen period, just about every suitable surface was covered in them. It just goes to show that being bombarded with advertising is hardly a modern phenomenon!

 

I'm fairly clear that I should paint my building in the following colours, but if anyone has further clarification/information I'd love to know!

 

Windows. Dark chocolate

Doors Dark chocolate. ( need to clarify what colour should recessed panels be?)

Poster boards. Dark chocolate edges, light stone or maybe gold lettering

Valance. Light and dark stone

 

 

Still hoping for more views/evidence

 

Dave

From looking at the photos I would say the panels are chocolate too, to me it is trick of light rather than being a different colour.

[wenlock]

From looking at the photos I would say the panels are chocolate too, to me it is trick of light rather than being a different colour.

Yes I'm sure your right and after reading this thread with great interest, the doors on my building are now a very fetching dark chocolate. I may do a little dry brushing of a lighter colour to highlight the panel detail, but that apart all the doors are one colour.

 

Dave

[wenlock]

In David's pictures of Princes Risborough and Wycombe the lamps appear to be painted in one dark colour. Am I safe to assume that these are also dark chocolate circa 1905? It would be really useful to compile a list of what parts were painted which colour, in light of all this new, well new to me evidence!

 

All fascinating stuff and has made me reappraise my views on GWR colour schemes.

 

Dave

Edited December 31, 2012 by wenlock

[David Bigcheeseplant]

This is a close up of people waiting on the platform of the second High Wycombe station around 1900, as can be seen doors, windows and panels plus frames all one very dark colour chocolate, the poster board is one colour without any white framing the cast notice on the door is black and white.
 

Edited December 31, 2012 by David Bigcheeseplant

[Mikkel]

From looking at the photos I would say the panels are chocolate too, to me it is trick of light rather than being a different colour.

A good point, although from looking at various photos it seems clear that both light and dark framing was used. The best example is the one mentioned earlier on the back of "Wiltshire's Lost Railways", which shows 3 boards of which one has a light frame and two a dark frame. They are next to each other and seen directly from the front, so it is not the lighting at play in that case.

 

I commute every day on a line here in Denmark which also has its own distinct colour scheme to valances etc, and yet it is amazing just how different the shades of the colours are from station to station. I know it was a different world back then and that "standards" were taken quite seriously, but I think we need to allow for a good deal of variety between and even within individual locations.

 

David those last couple of photos are fantastic in their own right. You should post them in "the human dimension" thread.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I am slowly going through all GWR books and photographs and trying to get more information on GWR building colours and I think the chocolate windows and doors was a standard aplication with examples from Paddington to the far west plus up to the Bimingham area, my latest book being checked is the Teign Valley Line there is a photo dated April 1924 which clearly shows this at Exeter St Thomas. 

 

I have found exceptions to the above, most turn of the century photos of the Seven & Wye wooden buildings seem to have light windows and paneled doors although was this an independent railway at this stage or GWR.

 

In the Teign Valley book there is a photo of Chudleigh in 1905 which shows a wooden building with light window sashes but the framing round them is very dark chocolate again, plus the framing round the awing looks very dark too. I would think this is a local aplication rather than the standard style.

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

Another photo of Wycombe lighting, angle of dangle, sunlight etc, there is still three colours on the canopy. The colours the signal box seem different to the newly built station, although as I stated earlier the signal department had a different style to that of stations with white window sashes from early on.

As a bit of added info is the signal box in the photo was only located here for a short time during rebuilding of the station, it opened in June 1903 and closed in 1906 then it was moved to Monorowen which I think is in Wales can anyone confirm.

 

David 

 

Manorowen signalbox was situated between Letterston Jcn and Fishguard & Goodwick  at the end of the newly doubled line from Letterston Junction.  I can't readily established when it was closed but it had definitely gone by 1969.  It appears to have probably been opened sometime in 1906.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have just been reading through the painting specifcations for signal boxes on the station colours website these are dated 1894 and 1907, interesing that the 1894 only gives three colours for the exterior of signal boxes, chocolate, white for window sashes and stone colour, the stone colour does not have a number so can we presume there was only one stone colour at this stage.

 

The 1907 spec gives Chocolate Stone No.1 & Stone No.3 no mention of Stone No.2 at all.

 

Looking at early photos there does only seem to be two colours chocolare and a light colour (stone No.1) by at least the turn of the century there seems to have been a third colour introduced (stone No.3)

 

Great Western Way still says stone No.1 was only used as undercoat which is nonsense as it is listed in the official letters as above.

 

What I am thinking is that the chocolate and very light stone (No.1) was replaced in the late 1920s or early 1930s by Stone No2  (darker and richer hue) and Stone No.3 with the chocolate only being used in some special locations.

 

David 

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

This photo of Aylesbury c1900 shows the footbridge with a one colour awining while the second photo that I posted before shows the striped awining so like Princes Risbough the striped valance can be dated 1907-1920

Edited January 1, 2013 by David Bigcheeseplant