Brian Kirby Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Hi Colin, Yes, it's a bit like chopping up a sacred cow, but my passengers need the extra seats and the intruding metal lump and missing seats spoil an otherwise excellent model. I'll try and add some replacement weight, it needs to push itself and one unpowered set (8 cars), i think pushing two unpowered sets might be too much. Another dream is to create a couple of 4BEPs, i'm fed up with waiting for Bachmann to oblige us, but i'll probably wait until their March announcements. If not, i've got two spare DC Kits of CEPs unmade, which i can re-arrange into BEPs (i did one for someone else years ago), rather than chop the Bachmann trailer and make it match. Since the BEPs didn't run on their own, they could be unpowered and be pulled by a CEP or sandwiched between two powered CEPs ( thinking big! ). Back on topic, i've made a start on the 4TC window frames, some pics later today. Meanwhile here are pics showing the shortened CEP weight back on, note the retained screw fixing, with odd bits blackened down, and then with the body back in place. The chip terminal is still a problem, although i'm loathe to shift it, i'll probably build over it. I think the tranverse corridor door will gain a standing passenger either side, to mask the back end of the motor! Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Hi Brian, The 4 CEP certainly looks very much better with the motor coach saloon open from side to side. The gubbins below window level is less of an issue, but I'm sure you'll be able to mask the decoder socket with seating. A 4 CEP pulling an unmotorised 4 BEP sounds like a good idea. There must be bags of power to spare in a Bachmann 4 CEP unit. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Thanks Colin, A simpler way might be to just cut back half of the cast lump and remove it from the saloon, then leave the motor and flywheel in place and camouflage them with passengers? The thing that stops me converting a Bachmann CEP to a BEP, is the thought of matching up the colours or having to repaint the whole unit, so perhaps converting the kits is the safer option. Having whetted your appetite for 4BEPs, here's one i did about five years ago for Charlie of DC Kits, he might still have it, or else sold it to one of his customers? As seen the window frame colour needed picking out, the underframe equipment is probably not as well detailed as the Bachmann. The buffet car was created from the all-second by re-positioning most of the original parts and adding extra blank panels from his TPO kits, i didn't have a scale drawing so it was all guesstimated from photos, no interior was fitted. I'm still busy applying the 4TC window frames! BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Hi Brian, That is an interesting unit you have made there. Where did the glazing come from? (What I had in mind would be a 4 CIG pulling an unmotorised 4 BIG, but the same principle applies.) All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Charlie of DC Kits (and this parish) used Replica Railways moulded windows for his DMU kits, however he commissioned elsewhere his own special glazing for the 4CEP kits. After quite a significant financial investment in producing this kit, sadly sales dropped off very quickly, as soon as Bachmann announced their RTR version. It was very unfortunate, since this was an excellent plastic kit and sold then at £55, less motor bogie and wheels, etc. It goes together beautifully. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 After messing around with all the motor bogies, here's some progress on the unpowered 4TC. I've been applying the SP sticky vinyl window frames to the printed sides, they are really intended for their etched brass range, but i'm using them here to increase the relief on the body. Putting these blighters on, can drive you up the wall, and to my horror, the frames are slightly too deep for the printed side. I suspect the sticky frame and brass version are too deep and the printed version too shallow, they should all be the same depth, the true size is probably between the two. Curiously, i didn't have this problem with the printed loco-hauled coaches shown at the beginning. So this has made application even more difficult and tedious, i've had to cut each one below the middle bar and apply each half separately. If you can finish one side in half-an-hour, you're doing quite well. The door grab handles are from the kit, the door handles are plain wire, the door hinges are offcuts of sticky tape, secured in place with the minimum of superglue. All will be covered in new paint. I've added some detail to the bogies using spare wire and plastic, the distinctive guard irons in front of the wheels are from 1mm brass angle. As far as i know, there is very little underframe equipment on the DTSOs or TFK, just a tank, some drain taps and a control box, most is on the trailer brake coach. The flat section handrails around the cab corners are made from straightened-out steel staples, the same as used on my uncoupling clips. The roof vents are on, as are the roof horns, these all come with the kit. I have created the recesses below the inward-opening crew doors, by scraping away the plastic, whereas on the 2HAP i drilled it out. The kit also supplies the dummy buckeye coupling, i'm still tempted to use Kadees or similar, and remove the Bachmann tension lock type. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Hi Brian, The window frames make a lot of difference to the surface texture of the 4 TC's sides. Well worth doing! The gap between the solebar and bogies looks just right too. Those staples come in for lots of uses don't they?! I am a great fan of your uncoupling system by the way. It is used to great effect on my layout. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bel Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hi Brian, The 4TC is really looking good, the window frames do make quite a difference. I agree with you about the DC Kits 4Cep, it is a really good kit to build and captures the look of the real thing excellently. Having that massive lump of metal in the Bachmann EMU's had put me off buying any of them but your modifications has changed my mind, especially seeing as now there are some really good deals to be had. Cheers for now, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Thanks Colin and Ian, Apologies for not replying sooner, but i've been laid low by flu for the best part of a week, so the 4TC has been held up. Nevertheless, i have almost completed the window frames and door furniture, trying hard not to sneeze all over it. Here's the TFK, like all other cars in these units, it's a rebuild from an early 50s coach, with new external window frames, air-braking and ETH ( electric train heating ) added, but it retains the original layout. This vehicle carries the least amount of underframe equipment, just a switch box and drain taps, as far as i can see, one side is completely clear? Here's the TBS ( or TBSK ) which started life as a steam-hauled BSK, this vehicle carries most of the equipment. The first side show the motor generator set, the other shows battery boxes and a compressor to the right. Those with a keen eye may spot vertical cut marks in the bodysides, this will be for the body lifting lugs, which were normally in line with the bogie centres, but one pair were offset on the TBS to avoid opening doors. They were quite distinctive on these mid-60s units, REPs and early VEPs had them too. They will be mocked-up from black plasticard. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Hi Brian, The 4 TC is coming on nicely. I'm no expert, but I believe the TFK underframe is correct as you have modelled it. It looks to be the same as a 4 CIG TSO chassis - very bare underneath! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 Thanks again Colin, I noticed to my horror, that the two battery boxes on the TBS pic ( see above ) didn't line up properly, funny how these larger than the models photos can show up these faults. Here is the TBS again with boxes corrected and lifting lugs added - if you can spot them! To the right is the compressor for the airbrakes, on the other side is the drum-shaped motor generator set. I can't understand why these units had motor generators, since they couldn't pick up from the third rail, presumably they ran off the ETH? Next the TBS and TFK need toilet pipes to be added. Looking at 4TC roof pics, there seems to be a curious mixture of ventilators, not all the units were the same, even within the original rebuilds. A lot of cars seem to have retained their original ridge dome type vents, although the front half of DTSOs all seem to have gained scallop dome type, no doubt through the complete rebuild of this end, other units have all vents replaced by scallop dome. My unit depicts the mostly ridge dome variant, so i have changed the front ones on the DTSOs to scallop dome. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Hi Brian, Isn't it funny how you don't notice parts that are out of line until after hitting the 'post' button! The unit looks good with all your latest detail touches. Re. motor generators, I am not an expert on these things, but I think that motor generators provided power for charging the emergency lighting batteries. Presumably that is the function of those two batteries to the left of the m.g. on the TBS. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 I'm no expert either, although i bet someone on RMweb will know the answer. I always assumed a motor generator was a way of avoiding using heavy transformers and would re-generate power at lower rates for control and lighting, would heating use line voltage?Giving it some thought, line voltage on the Bournemouth line was 750v, wasn't SR ETH rated at 750v as well? So perhaps when hauled by a Class 33 diesel it would receive 750v ETH, when pulled by a 4REP or Class 73 in electric mode, would they merely pass on collected 750v line voltage to the 4TC or 2 x 4TC via the same ETH jumper? Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I'm no expert either, although i bet someone on RMweb will know the answer. I always assumed a motor generator was a way of avoiding using heavy transformers and would re-generate power at lower rates for control and lighting, would heating use line voltage?Giving it some thought, line voltage on the Bournemouth line was 750v, wasn't SR ETH rated at 750v as well? So perhaps when hauled by a Class 33 diesel it would receive 750v ETH, when pulled by a 4REP or Class 73 in electric mode, would they merely pass on collected 750v line voltage to the 4TC or 2 x 4TC via the same ETH jumper? Cheers, Brian. Hi Brian, I think that the lighting on older SR EMUs did run with bulbs wired in series running at line voltage. (I have read about this subject in David Brown's Southern Electric book- forget the page number.) That is why you will see on units (like the 2 BIL) that the lighting runs contain about 10 lights each. I had always wondered why the coach lighting wasn't arranged in one circuit and why the corridors had one lamp with a conduit which vaulted over the roof from the opposite side. Having 70v DC light bulbs in the coaches made them very unattractive to steal ! (Unlike the commode handles in later days.) I am not sure how the more modern units were wired, but it makes sense to me that they would have been similarly wired. As for ETH, I simply do not know what voltage it is/was. I believe at least some of the catering equipment in buffet cars etc. ran at line voltage though. I shall have to have another read of the 'book'. Ceptic will be able to tell you more. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 SR unit lights were wired in series, rather like Christmas tree lights. A late friend used to work in the electrical department at Stewarts Lane and the stories he could tell about trying to trace which light bulb was faulty were legend! He modelled in O gauge using card and built some Pullman coaches complete with lighting, but that's another story. BR units (EPBs onwards) were wired in parallel and the lighting circuits were not at the full line voltage but powered from the motor generators and/or batteries as necessary (that was the reason for using motor generators, to step down the voltage to something more usable). This meant that one bulb blowing or going missing (stolen!) didn't take out half the lighting in a coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Oh dear, me and electrical ignorance! SRman has clarified matters somewhat. The information on which the comments in post #64 has come from 'The 4 SUB Story' as it turned out, so only relates to earlier units. The 4 TCs and other later units appear to have 70v lighting systems. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hi Brian Enjoying your topic so far. I don't want to be the bringer of bad news but are you aware that on conversion from BSK the TBSK lost the window to the guard's compartment. It appaeras that SP have modelled this vehicle in BSK rather TBSK style. The toilet window also appears to have lost its vent as well. http://www.flickr.com/photos/47500cdb/8310756900/ shows what I am on about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hi Natalie, No problems checking details, i'm glad you've pointed this out to me at this stage. I must admit i hadn't noticed the disappearing guard's window or the amended loo window. Then it occurred to me that the TFK loo windows may have changed as well, a quick rummage through the books proves they did too. There's always a slim chance that there were differences between build batches, but unlikely, although of course the REPs had two types of catering car and as i said above, the 4TC roof vents differed. I've had this problem before with SP kits, especially some of their loco-hauled ones, notably their etched RKB with wrong size window and incorrect door, their FO with toilets on the wrong side, their Mk2C BSO conversion with incorrect luggage van spacing and the completely wrong on both sides Mk1 sleeping cars, not just a case of buyer beware, but also builder beware. The problems are not insurmountable ( gnashes teeth ! ), the toilet windows can be altered by cutting and peeling back the offending vinyl, although the frame will have to be changed to one with a solid horizontal bar, with no cutaway. The disappearing window is trickier, i can probably add a vinyl window blank and then make good the surround, bearing-in-mind the whole unit is to be over-painted, since i don't like printed finishes these days. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hi Everyone, I've altered all three toilet windows and the offending guard's van window has disappeared. Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 That missing guard's window was something I missed when doing my original conversions for 4 REP and 3 TC units (I couldn't fit eight coaches into the platforms on the old layout!). I realised my error subsequently but never got around to correcting it .. I can live with it until I do a better model (the originals used Mainline SKs as they were the only suitable model at the time - Lima's SK came later). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 Hi SRman, Yes, i missed it completely, perhaps i had blind faith in the kit? Considering all the extra detail i've been adding, it's a classic case of "couldn't see the wood for the trees", all credit to Natalie for highlighting the mistakes at this stage, before i start painting it. The odd scratch on the printed surface is not a problem, all will be painted over. BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyddrail Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Brian, The "switch box" under your TFK is the brake chest (brake valves and EP valves) one per coach. Your TC is coming along very nicely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 Thanks Lyddrail, Some of these details are still a mystery to me, i am being led mostly by the SP instructions and equipment diagrams, which are confusing. I presume the ' Y ' shape taps on each car are for bleeding the brake system maybe? Part of the fun of building an unknown unit is finding out what all the lumps and bumps do, and where they go. Here's another little question that somebody may be able to answer: Above the cabs and between the horns, there is a flat rectangular box, which they've carried since becoming 4TC. Now there are a pair of similar shape castings in the kit, but they are at least twice the size with a wedged front, so maybe a later version or perhaps a later radio pod, i think i will mock-up some plastic replacements? Perhaps it is just a junction box for when horns need replacing? Cheers, Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 With thoughts turning to the seating, i've got sufficient SP seats, but i did have an idea of using Replica TSO moulded interiors in the two DTSOs, which might save some time. They are a fairly tight fit, but will just about go in, however there is a major snag, the DTSOs didn't have tables, so they would have to be cut out and patched over. The seating bay behind the cabs would also have to be stretched slightly, although it may be possible to retain the toilet walls as the cab compartment surrounds. Another issue is that the moulding has various portions of seat missing to accomodate the body fixing clips. All considered, it may be more straightforward to use individual SP seats as intended, i'll sleep on it and decide tomorrow. BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyddrail Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Brian, Yes, the Y thingy is drain traps that catch dirt in the air pipes. The cab roof vent is way over scale as supplied, MJT's version was too big too. For a change the MTK casting was quite good. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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