SR EMUs - Starting With BR 4TC and 2HAP

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

A bit more progress, having studied Paul's helpful 2HAP drawings and as many photos i could find, it became apparent that i needed to alter the toilet windows to plain single panes without sliding vents. This applied to the third and fourth batches and on my third batch model, was a simple task of carefully cutting out the stuck-on vinyl.

 

 

Since messrs Bachmann are not producing a 2HAP for the time being, i have revised my construction plans. As well as two 2HAP kits, i also have three Southern Pride 2EPB kits, which are pretty much redundant now, with the advent of the excellent Bachmann RTR model. I did toy with the idea of converting these to ex-South Tyneside units, basically it involves removing one compartment in the motor vehicle and altering the cab front, but i decided it would be easier to convert the RTR version and also be more uniform. Generally speaking, you wouldn't often see 2EPBs running with 2HAP stock, so the two fleets can be treated separately. To this end, i have decided to convert these SP 2EPBs to extra 2HAPs, by creating a new toilet compartment in the driving trailers.

 

It might sound bonkers to have five 2HAP units, all of BR Standard design, but there were plenty of detail variations and liveries between the identifiable batches. Actually, i've got another pair of HAP sides tucked away and i'm scrapping a SP 4EPB for parts, so i might end up with six HAPs or SAPs, or even CAPs ! Here are two of the donor 2EPBs, plus one with the start of the toilet conversion.

 

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Colin parks]

Hi Brian,

 

That is a pretty impressive 2 HAP construction program!  I am intrigued as to what you are using to fill in the compartment windows on that EPB's DTCL in the last picture.  Gosh, and a Tyneside EPB from a Bachmann EPB - interesting!  You are certainly not afraid to have go at the rarer types are you?.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Colin,

Years ago, the plan was to have two or three Southern Pride 2EPBs and two or three 2HAPs, but events have overtaken this concept and the 2EPBs are redundant for obvious reasons. Having mulled over what to do, i then discover that there was more variation in 2HAPs, than i originally thought. These are all BR Standard stock, it would have been nice to have a Bulleid style 2HAP for balance, but too difficult to convert one of the above. It might be just about possible to convert a BR 2EPB into a Bulleid 2EPB, but there's no point since i have an untouched dreaded MTK Bulleid 2EPB and also one from the Never Mind The Nonsense stable, which i believe is an improved version of the former. So one day, i'll find and build a Bulleid 2HAP kit.

BTW, i went to Ally Pally yesterday, thoroughly enjoyed it, and came home with a quantity of Replica suburban bodies, plus long and short cabs????

 

Cheers, Brian.

[Oldddudders]

 

It might sound bonkers to have five 2HAP units, all of BR Standard design, but there were plenty of detail variations and liveries between the identifiable batches.

 

Nothing wrong with 10-HAP! Regular working on the Kent Coast services in the peak. Just do it!

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin,

Years ago, the plan was to have two or three Southern Pride 2EPBs and two or three 2HAPs, but events have overtaken this concept and the 2EPBs are redundant for obvious reasons. Having mulled over what to do, i then discover that there was more variation in 2HAPs, than i originally thought. These are all BR Standard stock, it would have been nice to have a Bulleid style 2HAP for balance, but too difficult to convert one of the above. It might be just about possible to convert a BR 2EPB into a Bulleid 2EPB, but there's no point since i have an untouched dreaded MTK Bulleid 2EPB and also one from the Never Mind The Nonsense stable, which i believe is an improved version of the former. So one day, i'll find and build a Bulleid 2HAP kit.

BTW, i went to Ally Pally yesterday, thoroughly enjoyed it, and came home with a quantity of Replica suburban bodies, plus long and short cabs????

 

Cheers, Brian.

Hi Brian,

 

Re. Bulleid 2 HAPs.  Strangely, I had the same thoughts about converting a DC KIts BR kit into the earlier version, but it became clear nothing was really common to both.  The BR version has a longer and differnetly trussed underframe,  differently shaped windows etc., etc..  I would have gone for the No-Nonsense Bulleid 2 EPB kit and made my own 2 HAP sides, but sadly the owner of NN KIts, Alastair Rolfe died the year I started on the project. 

 

Oldlugger has one of the NN Kits Bulleid 2 HAP kits to make for his layout St Mary Hoo and we recently disussed how to go about making the kit.  Take my advice, chop off the integrally-formed solebars and build the coaches with a separate chassis. I believe the MTK version is, er, not the best of kits to make!  

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

Don't worry Colin,

    I'm well versed in the inadequacies of the old MTK range, we used to sell them at the KX shop, and get all the complaints. Funnily enough, he (Colin Massingham) started off quite well with a whitemetal kit for a Standard Class 5 loco, which had quite good castings, then came the diesel kits, followed by the units and coach kits, and it all went downhill in quality from there. The N gauge kits, which i think became Fleetline (?), were pretty decent, better than the 4mm. Did anyone ever manage to make a MTK motor bogie kit work?     

    Quite right about the solebars, i usually prefer roof fixed to body, with the floor+chassis dropping out, with the notable exception of Southern Pride, which is too difficult to build that way. Because the alloy bodyshells were rolled, pressed and punched, things like cantrails/guttering are not very sharply defined, there could be a case for replacing the roof? Crikey, it's just dawned on me, i've also got a couple of MTK body only kits for SR emus, tucked away in a cupboard somewhere, i've forgotten what they were now, but pretty sure they will be 2-car. I will have a search, might even be a Bulleid 2HAP?      BK

[Clive Mortimore]

Don't worry Colin,

    I'm well versed in the inadequacies of the old MTK range, we used to sell them at the KX shop, and get all the complaints. Funnily enough, he (Colin Massingham) started off quite well with a whitemetal kit for a Standard Class 5 loco, which had quite good castings, then came the diesel kits, followed by the units and coach kits, and it all went downhill in quality from there. The N gauge kits, which i think became Fleetline (?), were pretty decent, better than the 4mm. Did anyone ever manage to make a MTK motor bogie kit work?     

Hi Brian

 

I haven't but I have a secondhand MTK Brush type 4 fitted with two MTK power bogies. It can out haul a Heljan 47. And who ever made it done a good job on the loco body.

 

I use to have a DMU parcels car with a MTK power unit, the unit ran OK on its own but would not work inside the parcels car.

[Colin parks]

Don't worry Colin,

    I'm well versed in the inadequacies of the old MTK range, we used to sell them at the KX shop, and get all the complaints. Funnily enough, he (Colin Massingham) started off quite well with a whitemetal kit for a Standard Class 5 loco, which had quite good castings, then came the diesel kits, followed by the units and coach kits, and it all went downhill in quality from there. The N gauge kits, which i think became Fleetline (?), were pretty decent, better than the 4mm. Did anyone ever manage to make a MTK motor bogie kit work?     

    Quite right about the solebars, i usually prefer roof fixed to body, with the floor+chassis dropping out, with the notable exception of Southern Pride, which is too difficult to build that way. Because the alloy bodyshells were rolled, pressed and punched, things like cantrails/guttering are not very sharply defined, there could be a case for replacing the roof? Crikey, it's just dawned on me, i've also got a couple of MTK body only kits for SR emus, tucked away in a cupboard somewhere, i've forgotten what they were now, but pretty sure they will be 2-car. I will have a search, might even be a Bulleid 2HAP?      BK

Hi Brian,

 

I wish I had a cupboard like that with such possible hidden treasures as a Bulleid 2 HAP kit in it!  Re. the King's Cross shop.  When did you work there?  I used to sometimes deliver Cambrian kits the shop in York Way in the early eighties.  Now, that would be a strange coincidence if you were there then!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Brian,

 

 Re. the King's Cross shop.  When did you work there?  I used to sometimes deliver Cambrian kits the shop in York Way in the early eighties.  Now, that would be a strange coincidence if you were there then!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

I worked at KX from the mid-70s to the mid-80s, so crikey, yes we've almost certainly met before. ( Gulp ) I remember Bazza driving up from Wales in his crappy old grey (or green?) 3-wheeled Robin Reliant van ( very Only Fools and Horses ) stuffed with plastic wagon kits, we were Cambrian's distributors then. Sometimes he was assisted by a tall lanky lad, could that have been your good self? Now here's the really weird bit, the comedy writer, the late John Sullivan, used to be a regular customer and would call in every day on the way home from the BBC. Could he have seen you two independent traders with the three-wheeled van and developed an idea from that? Hmmm?  Well Rodders?       BK

[Colin parks]

I worked at KX from the mid-70s to the mid-80s, so crikey, yes we've almost certainly met before. ( Gulp ) I remember Bazza driving up from Wales in his crappy old grey (or green?) 3-wheeled Robin Reliant van ( very Only Fools and Horses ) stuffed with plastic wagon kits, we were Cambrian's distributors then. Sometimes he was assisted by a tall lanky lad, could that have been your good self? Now here's the really weird bit, the comedy writer, the late John Sullivan, used to be a regular customer and would call in every day on the way home from the BBC. Could he have seen you two independent traders with the three-wheeled van and developed an idea from that? Hmmm?  Well Rodders?       BK

Hi Brian,

 

This is hopelessly off-topic but:

 

Amazing! 

 

Yes that was me, but although thin I was not tall.  When not delivering in the three-wheeler, we used to catch the train from Aberystwyth via Shrewsbury to Euston and struggle down the Euston Road with suitcases filled with kits.  I remember the stock was  kept upstairs.  I can still recall the hilarity when we turned up with some new private own wagon kits: one called  Felin Fran was quickly dubbed "feeling Fran!" by some of you guys. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[MJI]

Hi Brian,

 

This is hopelessly off-topic but:

 

Amazing! 

 

Yes that was me, but although thin I was not tall.  When not delivering in the three-wheeler, we used to catch the train from Aberystwyth via Shrewsbury to Euston and struggle down the Euston Road with suitcases filled with kits.  I remember the stock was  kept upstairs.  I can still recall the hilarity when we turned up with some new private own wagon kits: one called  Felin Fran was quickly dubbed "feeling Fran!" by some of you guys. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

I have met the Cambrian brothers (more than once), joked to them about doing Nuclear flask wagons!

[Brian Kirby]

Whey hey !!!!

Having had a search through my strategic reserve cupboard, i've found the two aforementioned MTK body kit flat packs. One is a 3-car Oxted set ( god help us ), the other ---- ( drumroll ) ----, is a Bulleid style 2HAP !!!! That's 'andy 'Arry, so now we are up to seven HAPs. MTK are rather basic, but these don't look too bad i suppose, the sides are rolled, the 3D Oxted side-roof-side is all one piece, like their usual bodyshells, although the roof here is completely flat (???). The Bulleid HAP will be a challenge, with separate sides that sensibly continue up on to the roof, to the line of the high level rainstrip, over the shoulder of the roof. The cab castings are actually pretty decent, although i fear the DTC windows are a cock-up on the corridor side?

 

I seem to recall being presented with these ( dumped on, more like, the skip was full by then :-) ), donkey's years ago when W&H went bust, i wouldn't have parted with hard-earned for this old rubbish! I'll do some snaps later. BK

[Brian Kirby]

Here are the two body kit packs, note the catchy range title. These will be about 30 years old i suppose?

 

 

Here are the Bulleid style 2HAP sides and ends, at a glance the top two sides for the DMBS seem roughly correct, but the two sides for the DTC appear to have discrepancies, particularly the bottom side, which i believe should have large corridor windows and the three small windows look odd. It may be possible to open up the short windows to the large corridor type? The cab ends look pretty good to me. BK

 

BTW Colin, no dump pipes in these packs! :-)

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Here are the two body kit packs, note the catchy range title. These will be about 30 years old i suppose?

 

SR EMUs 4TC and 2HAP 436.jpg

SR EMUs 4TC and 2HAP 441.jpg

 

Here are the Bulleid style 2HAP sides and ends, at a glance the top two sides for the DMBS seem roughly correct, but the two sides for the DTC appear to have discrepancies, particularly the bottom side, which i believe should have large corridor windows and the three small windows look odd. It may be possible to open up the short windows to the large corridor type? The cab ends look pretty good to me. BK

 

BTW Colin, no dump pipes in these packs! :-)

 

SR EMUs 4TC and 2HAP 438.jpg

Hi Brian

 

I am not the only one with some of these. I have a 6S Hastings unit, a 2HAP and a 2EPB (SR style). The 2HAP has instructions about cutting the small windows on the corridor side to make big windows. Does not state which ones so it is down to the modeller to find a photo or even better still a drawing. Like the Oxted set the 6S coaches have a flat rooves. I am never going to use them so anyone what a challenge?

[5Bel]

Hi Brian,

 

Those photos bring back memories. I had a 6S Hastings unit in this format. I even started to make a couple of the coaches by cutting the flat roof off and fitting the sides to a Lima Mk1 glazing unit. They didn't look too bad. I haven't got a clue what happened to them though!! I used to go to the shop in Kings Cross quite a lot in my youth, combining it with a spotting trip around the London stations. I used to buy the Capitalcard for £2.50 and spend all day going to all the train shops and big stations. Now that is what you call value for money. My last purchase from the Kings Cross shop was two BSL 4Cor motor cars, long since built and sold unfortunately. The Replica parts are good value and can be made into 2Haps quite easily. Here are a couple of pics of mine.

 

 

 

Looking forward to seeing more of your progress.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Clive and Ian,

Quite right Clive, i have now found the amendment slip in the 2HAP instructions, telling us to open up the corridor windows with a file, don't we just love MTK kits! I think i've solved the mystery of the three short windows with bars on the DTC. Because these had a half, or coupe compartment behind the cabs, the middle window of the three should be a smaller fixed sidelight, then the outer window is presumably for the driver's cab door, although strictly not in the exact correct position. Same goes for the cab sidelights, they should be nearer the outside corners, but this may be due to the limitations of punched sides. It's a shame these kit sides are made of aluminium alloy, if they were tinplate, correction and soldering would have been easier. I'm in no rush to build this monster, but if i did, i've got a couple of Southern Pride Bulleid coach chassis kits going spare for it.

 

I do like your BR 2HAP Ian, is that using Replica's own glazing? If i hadn't already got the old SP kits to use up, i would have probably converted Bachmann or Replica shells, the same way as you. Incidentally, the Replica shells just purchased, are intended for a future BR 4EPB and an ER 4-car unit, probably a AM7/307, the ugliest units ever built !

 

Cheers, Brian.

[Colin parks]

Here are the two body kit packs, note the catchy range title. These will be about 30 years old i suppose?

 

SR EMUs 4TC and 2HAP 436.jpg

SR EMUs 4TC and 2HAP 441.jpg

 

Here are the Bulleid style 2HAP sides and ends, at a glance the top two sides for the DMBS seem roughly correct, but the two sides for the DTC appear to have discrepancies, particularly the bottom side, which i believe should have large corridor windows and the three small windows look odd. It may be possible to open up the short windows to the large corridor type? The cab ends look pretty good to me. BK

 

BTW Colin, no dump pipes in these packs! :-)

 

SR EMUs 4TC and 2HAP 438.jpg

Hi Brian,

 

Interesting photos, however there is something not quite right about the Bulleid 2 HAP  DTC body sides as you say. Here is a set I cut for the first model I made of one of the 2 HAPs for reference (bearing in mind that the trailer coach was marked out from the Brian Golding plans book!) The side window on the second man's side of the cab should be shorter (which this set does not have - thanks Mr Golding): 

 

 

The motor coach windows looks the same as mine.  It looks like you also have a 2 HAP DTC with a toilet window with the corresponding plain panel on the other side, the compartments are spaced for three first class towards the inner end.  However, there is no corridor.  Odd that the sides of those MTK kits continued up to the higher water strip on the roof too, as these units did have a cantrail strip.

 

Er,  good luck!

 

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

 

Thanks Colin,

Here are the MTK sides again, for closer comparison with Colin's interpretation above, as i think we all agree, the MTK DMBS is not too bad, but there are clearly problems with the DTC. I think the cab ends are the saving grace, somebody knew what they were doing there, and it would be a shame not to use them. Quite right, these later Bulleid style rebuilds did have a faint cantrail strip, but they couldn't have been proper guttering, the main rainstrip is still higher up on the roof, as far as i can see. In fact that cantrail strip is so thin, it may be best represented by two scored lines, 5 thou plasticard or even a transfer lining strip painted over? The high line cut on these sides is no doubt influenced by earlier 4EPBs and 4SUB stock. I'd better get some of my BR Standard HAP "fleet" finished first.

 

Cheers, Brian.

[5Bel]

Hi Brian,

 

The glazing is indeed Replica, I have used it in lots of suburban EMU's, it also fits the DC Kits Emu's. I have two bodyshells awaiting conversion into 4Epb drivers. I am going to source two Bulleid pattern trailer cars just to be a little different.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

[Brian Kirby]

 

Hi Brian

 

I haven't but I have a secondhand MTK Brush type 4 fitted with two MTK power bogies. It can out haul a Heljan 47. And who ever made it done a good job on the loco body.

 

I use to have a DMU parcels car with a MTK power unit, the unit ran OK on its own but would not work inside the parcels car.

Sorry Clive, i missed this post from the other day. Well i never, someone actually built some! There must be a fair bit of weight in a MTK whitemetal Class 47, hence the superior haulage capacity? From distant memory, the motor bogie kits came in plastic bags on card, the components were mostly black plastic, including the gears, with brass bearings and wheels. I can't remember if they included the motor or whether you had to buy that separately? BK

[Colin parks]

SR EMUs 4TC and 2HAP 438.jpg

 

Thanks Colin,

Here are the MTK sides again, for closer comparison with Colin's interpretation above, as i think we all agree, the MTK DMBS is not too bad, but there are clearly problems with the DTC. I think the cab ends are the saving grace, somebody knew what they were doing there, and it would be a shame not to use them. Quite right, these later Bulleid style rebuilds did have a faint cantrail strip, but they couldn't have been proper guttering, the main rainstrip is still higher up on the roof, as far as i can see. In fact that cantrail strip is so thin, it may be best represented by two scored lines, 5 thou plasticard or even a transfer lining strip painted over? The high line cut on these sides is no doubt influenced by earlier 4EPBs and 4SUB stock. I'd better get some of my BR Standard HAP "fleet" finished first.

 

Cheers, Brian.

Hi Brian,

 

I reckon you could alter that 2 HAP trailer coach and make a corridor side by joining the quarterlights to tun them into the correct width windows.  Then all that needs doing is to fill in the 'extra' door next to the driver's one and turn it into a quarterlight. There was a coupe behind the cab on the DTC.

 

So all is not lost, but I think you would be best off representing the cantrail level water strip with something a bit more substantial than 5 thou. material.  I think the strip was made of 'L' shaped angle and stood off the side by approx. 1 1/4".

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

Well if that strip is 1 1/4" wide, that's about 15 thou in 4mm. As pointed out before, the correction sheet in the kit points out the error in the corridor windows, hopefully the side pillars are the same thickness, correcting the coupe windows will be the tricky bit. The whole thing could be built on to a Southern Pride Bulleid coach shell and roof, complete with 8' bogies in the middle. Any idea what bogie goes under the DTC cab with pick-up shoebeams, is it like a 2BIL? By contrast BR Standard units use a B1/B2 bogie here, with a shoebeam, whether the inner bogies were B1/B2 or Commonwealth. Maybe because the Commonwealths were cast, they were just too difficult to alter, to carry shoebeams?     BK

[Colin parks]

Well if that strip is 1 1/4" wide, that's about 15 thou in 4mm. As pointed out before, the correction sheet in the kit points out the error in the corridor windows, hopefully the side pillars are the same thickness, correcting the coupe windows will be the tricky bit. The whole thing could be built on to a Southern Pride Bulleid coach shell and roof, complete with 8' bogies in the middle. Any idea what bogie goes under the DTC cab with pick-up shoebeams, is it like a 2BIL? By contrast BR Standard units use a B1/B2 bogie here, with a shoebeam, whether the inner bogies were B1/B2 or Commonwealth. Maybe because the Commonwealths were cast, they were just too difficult to alter, to carry shoebeams?     BK

Hi Brian,

 

Yes the panels between windows on the 2 HAPs lined up with thoise on the opposite side.  The corridor windows should be the same width as the distance between the outside verticals of their opposite quarterlights.  All that you have to do is 'join the dots'. The corridor doors were also in alignment with the ones in the compartments- apart from that rogue one behind the driver's door.  re. cantrail water-strips, here is a link to some photos which might help:http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15056-bulleid-2hap-emu/page-8  post #211 on p.9 has a dimensioned sketch of the cabside windows which should help you. 

 

Beware, these units were built on 62' 0" underframes reclaimed from 2 NOLs, the loco-hauled stock was built on longer underframes.  The 8ft bogies are the same as on loco-hauled coaches, with the addition of an extra step at the inner end.  The pick-up bogies should be 8' 9" w.b., just like the 'real' 2 BILs.  Mr Golding's plans would have you believe the pick-up bogies were standard 8ft ones with a shoe beam added - they were not.  Currently, Roxey do an etched/whitemetal bogie kit and maybe SRG - if they have the parts.  The No-Nonsense whitmetal version is not available from Phoenix- Precision unless that situation has changed in the last few weeks.

 

All the best,

 

Colin    (Edited to correct under frame measurement.)

[Brian Kirby]

Hi again Colin,

     Many thanks for the handy links and advice, plus a retrospective thank you to Dave Smith for the super Bulleid HAP close-up pics. Very handy to sort out those mixed up windows and one pic in particular shows the cab in profile, next to a BR Standard cab, the Bulleid cab side window being nearer the outside corner. Thanks for the tip about the Roxey bogie, funnily enough i saw his stand at Ally Pally last weekend, perhaps he'll be at Aylesbury?

 

                                              Cheers, Brian. (One nil to England at the moment, as i type)

    

[Colin parks]

Hi again Colin,

     Many thanks for the handy links and advice, plus a retrospective thank you to Dave Smith for the super Bulleid HAP close-up pics. Very handy to sort out those mixed up windows and one pic in particular shows the cab in profile, next to a BR Standard cab, the Bulleid cab side window being nearer the outside corner. Thanks for the tip about the Roxey bogie, funnily enough i saw his stand at Ally Pally last weekend, perhaps he'll be at Aylesbury?

 

                                              Cheers, Brian. (One nil to England at the moment, as i type)

    

Hi Brian,

 

Dave might have even more photos of the later BR version, could be worth a 'pm' to him.

 

You typed too soon Brian!

 

Colin