SR EMUs - Starting With BR 4TC and 2HAP

[Brian Kirby]

   Hi again Lyddrail,

Oh, so the rectangular box offset between the horns, is a cab vent! I've just been putting the horns on the other DTSO, so next i'll make the cab vents from plasticard. Nice to know what all the details are for and thanks for explaining the air pipe drain taps.

 

                                                                           Cheers, Brian.

[Ceptic]

Pic, here showing cab vent & CSR aerial pod* on 3-CIG. 

 

 

CSR added in mid-90s

[Colin parks]

Hi Brian,

 

There are more of Ceptic's excellent photos on my topic (post#181) here:http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51422-4-cig-for-newhaven-harbour/page-8  They might be of interest.  One shot is of the front of a 4 TC.

 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Ceptic]

Hi all.

 

 

Note that the 4-TC unit 427 is fitted with the louvred cab vent, (Adjustable from inside the cab)

 

 

whereas the 4-REP unit 3012 has the std. Scallop vent.

 

 

The off-side filler cap was for the screen-wash. Both pics taken in the mid 80s.

 

It's hard to make out, but this blurry 1967 pic seems to suggest a louvred vent fitted from new.

 

 

It's even harder to tell in this shot !

 

 

Regards. F.

[Brian Kirby]

Many Thanks Ceptic Frank and Colin, very useful, much appreciated. I'd already twigged about the deeper cabs on REPs and TCs, there seem to be many subtle differences compared with CIGs and VEPs. Another thing peculiar to REPs and TCs is the ETH jumper cable outside and under one buffer, i will add this distinctive feature, although i'm starting to think the tension lock coupling may spoil the effect. I've added the brake regulator piping and have been removing all but the bottom steps on the ends, within the unit and will replace these with a representation of the junction boxes and jumper cables, again they seem to differ from CIGs, but photos showing this are extremely hard to find. Another puzzle is the 4REP in the last of Frank's pics seems to have blue, green, or grey curtains, i thought they were always orange? You learn something new every day!

 

Cherrs and thanks again, Brian.

[4630]

 

ScannedImage-15 (4).jpg

 

The off-side filler cap was for the screen-wash. Both pics taken in the mid 80s.

 

Regards. F.

 

Probably worth mentioning that IIRC the fillers for the screen-wash were added to the REPs and TCs in the mid1970s so if you're modelling a unit before that time period there won't be a need to include this feature.

[BernardTPM]

I suspect the orange curtains was a 1970s thing, contemporary to the prototype Mk.3s and maybe the blue/grey from new 4-VEPs. Certainly the 1962/3 Ian Allan Combined volume which has a Welch colour plate of a green 4-CEP doesn't have orange curtains unlike Bachmann! The simple reason for the deeper cab in the 4-TCs was because they were conversions so the driver's door is in the same place as the former vestibule door. I suspect they just built the 4-REPs to match as the basic passenger layout was the same.

[Oldddudders]

This 1970 pic shows the 1968 8-VAB, which was basically a pair of VEPs with a buffet, and the nearest VEP vehicle in blue has orange curtains.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6281025709/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The VEPs had only been on the road 3 years at that point, and it is my belief they started life in 1967 with orange curtains. The VEPs used for the VAB were from the second batch, and actually intended for the Central, but were diverted for the more pressing need on the SW. They were built at York in 1967.

 

As for green CEPs and their curtains, here is a green unit with SYP and orange curtains. Photo is sadly undated, but the green SYP makes it pretty early in their life.

http://www.toys2save.com/image_library/library/t/toy/toys2save.com/orig_31_426.jpg

[Ceptic]

I suspect the orange curtains was a 1970s thing, contemporary to the prototype Mk.3s and maybe the blue/grey from new 4-VEPs. Certainly the 1962/3 Ian Allan Combined volume which has a Welch colour plate of a green 4-CEP doesn't have orange curtains unlike Bachmann! The simple reason for the deeper cab in the 4-TCs was because they were conversions so the driver's door is in the same place as the former vestibule door. I suspect they just built the 4-REPs to match as the basic passenger layout was the same.

 

Orange curtains were certainly around in the Green 60's period, though. There's a colour photo in Keith R. Pirt's 'Steam Colour Portfolio, S. Region, Vol.1', Book Law Publications, of an ex-'Tavern' set RCO fitted with such, in both 1st. & 2nd. class.  ISTR them on the Bulleid B'm'th 6-car dining sets, also. Apologies for going off-track. The only connection being the 'Pub' sign carried by both the 'Tavern's RKB and the REP's Trailer Buffets  (Internally) *

 

The external / internal dimensions of the REP's / TC's Driver's cab was the same as the CIG's / VEP's, at 4'-5". That is, the distance from the body end panel's exterior, to the inside wall of the Driver's bulkhead. The extra space being taken up by the Driver's entrance vestibule. 3'- 5 3/16", inside on the REP / TC, as opposed to 2'- 7 1/4" for the CIG / VEP.

I suspect that this extra space could have accommodated the Auxiliary Cupboard, but to standardise with the other '63 Stock, this was, also, placed in the Guard's compartment.

 

Regards,  Frank.  

 

*

 

*   S 69322 'The Solent'

[BernardTPM]

As for green CEPs and their curtains, here is a green unit with SYP and orange curtains. Photo is sadly undated, but the green SYP makes it pretty early in their life.

http://www.toys2save.com/image_library/library/t/toy/toys2save.com/orig_31_426.jpg

 

Orange they are - fair enough. The Commonwealth bogies (and number) make this a Phase II unit, built 1960-61.

[Penrhos1920]

Probably a daft question.  Why haven't you used Bachmann Mk1s as the basis of the 4TCs?  I see that Dagworth made a pair of 309s by that route.

[Brian Kirby]

 

This 1970 pic shows the 1968 8-VAB, which was basically a pair of VEPs with a buffet, and the nearest VEP vehicle in blue has orange curtains.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6281025709/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The VEPs had only been on the road 3 years at that point, and it is my belief they started life in 1967 with orange curtains.

 

Great pic of "The VAB", thanks for finding that Oldddudders. I've got some VEPs and "The VAB" to do soon, perhaps rather perversely, VEPs were my favourite units. I used to like the way they would romp along and you could have all the windows open in summer, although i'm sure they were pretty draughty for commuters in the winter.

 

On the thorny subject of orange curtains, i've always associated them with the blue and blue-grey era from the mid-to-late 60s, including all the Bournemouth Electrification stock, so i was surprised to see Ceptic's REP pic, how wrong i was? Having said that, i've seen numerous pics of loco-hauled FKs and FOs, including early Mk2s, in blue-grey with the older grey or blue curtains, probably inherited from an earlier livery and still in good condition.

 

The screenwash filler cap detail is too late for my period, i'm puzzled as to why this stock acquired these, yet it doesn't seem apparent on stock like CIGs, etc.?

 

Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

 

Probably a daft question.  Why haven't you used Bachmann Mk1s as the basis of the 4TCs?  I see that Dagworth made a pair of 309s by that route.

Hi Penrhos,

Several reasons, i already had the kit(s) from way back, the kits are reasonably accurate ( apart from the odd brake van window! ), but the biggest reason is how else would i replicate the two "door in windows" behind the cabs on each of the DTSOs? A 4TC could be created from the appropriate Bachmann coaches, but one would have to follow Colin Park's method and employ etched window frames for ALL the windows, like on his 4CIG, in fact a 4TC wouldn't be as complicated as the 4CIG.

 

Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Everyone,

After the distraction of the lovely 2BIL units, it's back to the building work. I've had a re-think on the couplings, the front ends of EMUs are their faces and those tension-lock couplings were just too intrusive and non-prototypical. I've switched to Kadee's buckeye type, which look the part and work well. Taking the authenticity a stage further, the operating drop-gear didn't look right, even with the arm turned around and facing backwards, so i cut them off, leaving them as "semi-automatic". I've also added the ETH jumpers bottom right, which were a notable feature of REPs and TC units.

 

 

I've also been catching up on the 2HAP unit, now with front end detail and again Kadee buckeye couplings. You may have noticed in the early pics, that the bottom steps were either badly cast or more likely damaged on the cab castings, i've repaired these with low-melt solder and then filed them to shape. I've also added guard irons in 'T' shaped milled brass. Yes, i know i need to add a horizontal pipe to the left-hand jumpers !

 

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Brian

 

Your units are coming along nicely.

 

Can I ask which type of Kaydee you have fitted and how you've got them to work and come through the buffer beam? A No. 5 perhaps with the box mounted under the floor?

 

Mike

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Mike,

   I'm afraid i can't tell you which particular Kaydees i've used, since i only found these by rummaging in my spares box, for this experiment. They will be one of the regular sizes no.s 5,6 or 7 perhaps? I've got a few more stashed away somewhere, including some of the American narrow gauge type, which someone said was good for British outline? As seen, i've already butchered them by chopping off the dropgear, but i also had to dispense with the spring box, since there just wasn't enough room. Instead i drilled three parallel holes in the buffer beam and turned that into a slot to allow for side-play, then just held the coupling in place with a screw into the underneath of the floor. I do some more pics later.

 

                                                        Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

As promised, here are a couple of pics showing how the stripped down Kaydees are mounted to the floor, and the slot in the buffer-beam on a 2HAP DMBS and 4TC DTSO. The buckeye heads are ever so slightly further out than in reality, since the gangways and buffing plates are solid on the models and i always build stock to negotiate a minimum curve of 2'6", which is the inside of a Peco curved point. I could always add a centering spring, but haven't bothered so far. The Kaydees are now "semi-automatic", in other words they will couple automatically, but un-coupling will be manual for the time being.      BK

 

  

[Bulleidboy]

Thanks for the detailed photos - will have to experiment with this method.

 

Mike

[Colin parks]

Hi Brian,

 

I have missed some posts this week due to work commitments.  Interesting work on the 4 TC Kaydee coulpings, they look rather convincing sans activating bar.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Colin and all,

I'm quite pleased with the way they look, especially now i've removed the dropgear bar, i believe the real buckeyes were released by pulling a chain over one buffer? Looking at pics of other region's EMUs, the ER had a cable or pipe attached to the buckeye to release ( not unlike a Kaydee! ), but i don't know how these, or the different again LMR type, worked?

As previously mentioned, i managed to get the stock to traverse 2'6" curves, which using the Peco range as a template, is the inside of their curved points. As expected, problems arose on sharp reverse curves, namely crossovers. After a few tweaks, i got them to negotiate a pair of the large 5' radius, in both left and right hand, which if using handbuilt track, must be close to a B6 size? This still excluded the medium 3' and the all-important slip points, which must be somewhere in the region of 30in. to 36in. in old money. So i had to start nibbling away at the gangway bottoms and buffing plates, hopefully without ruining the appearance, but problems persisted. Then a breakthrough, the extended wing of the Kaydees were constantly catching the gangways, so i cut the wings off, leaving just the buckeye head, which is also more realistic. Now they will happily run through a crossover using two slips, in either hand, although i'm still testing to check that i haven't compromised coupling security. I'll try and do pics later today.

 

Cheers, Brian.

[5Bel]

Hi Brian,

 

Interesting work on the Kadees. I used them in similar fashion on my 4Cig but not on the ends. I had the added bonus of no buffers and the unit will happily negotiate my 3' minimum radius. After looking at your work I might have a look at doing the fronts of my various units.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Ian,

Here are some pics showing the movement of the Kaydees on the 2HAP from underneath. In all photos the extended wing has been removed from the buckeye on the left, but remains for now on the right, that will probably be removed as well, you can see the potential for catching the buffing plate. The cast buffing plates needed a lot of filing to get them sitting at the correct height. The second photo shows the bodies and couplings in a straight alignment, with the couplings compressed, the third pic shows the couplings in tension.

 

 

These next two pics show the position of the bodies when traversing a reverse crossover, which of course leads to a twisting or greater yaw of the couplings either way, which requires greater clearance. BK

[Brian Kirby]

Here are the Kaydees coupled on the corridor 4TC, the first pic shows the driving cars coupled as if two units, on the single curve of a Peco double slip. The second pic shows the position of the bodies on a reverse crossover made from two double slips. The last two photos show the equivalent position from underneath. The extended wings on both couplings have been removed here, allowing greater freedom of movement, hopefully without compromising coupling security. One consequence of changing to Kaydees on the 4TC, is how to couple to a push-pull Class 33 or other? The obvious answer seems to be to fit an upright Kaydee or similar, to at least one end of the loco.

 

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Here are some more pics of the 2HAP, this time showing the roof and underframe arrangements, i've still got the tasks of the stepboards, and all those door hinges and handles. Now i think there is a very fair chance that Bachmann will announce a 2HAP, bearing in mind that they already have the Driving Motor Brake ( DMBS ) from the 2EPB and they have just released the 2-car DEMU which has a Driving Trailer Compo ( DTC ), which is very similar to the DTC on the 2HAP. I reckon they'll go for one of the two early batches, to cover the earliest modelling period, namely either the 42 units of the 1957 batch, which were festooned with pipes and conduit on the roof, or the 63 units of the 1958 batch, which had slightly less plumbing.

So it would make sense to do something different, i've plumped for the third batch ( 6106 to 6146 ), which differed from the earlier builds by having Commonwealth inner bogies and scallop dome roof vents, but no pipework or conduit on the roof ( sheer laziness on my part ). The 1963 fourth batch ( 6147 to 6173 ) is similar to the third, same bogies and vents, but more difficult with a revised cab front and full length angled rainstrips on the roofs, might try one of these later?

 

 

These next pics show the underframe detail, as supplied and directed by Southern Pride, although i suspect these arrangements are based on the earlier sets, there may be slight differences between the batches? There's very little on the DTC and we haven't got all the linkages and rods, that are on the nice Bachmann 2EPB.

 

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Budgie]

Please forgive me for being pedantic.

 

There is no letter Y in Kadee.

 

Best wishes