SR EMUs - Starting With BR 4TC and 2HAP

[Brian Kirby]

I've filled in the yawning gaps with off-cuts of plasticard, plus a bit of filler. As i expected, cutting the gangway at the bottom has given a neater join to the unit on the left, and there's an angled inner door line there anyway, whereas the gangway on the right was cut halfway up, thinking it would be stronger, but of course the two cut lines are more difficult to hide. It was all carefully rubbed down and prepared, but a disclosing coat of white primer has shown up two parallel scars and other faults, that will need to be corrected. I've also made the cable recesses narrower on the outside, plus the cab windows have been slightly altered, to give them a bit less taper . The roof domes are now also more rounded, where they come down to meet the sides. In the middle, is an un-altered 4VEP DTC for comparison, which is also too high on it's bogies, so will soon be getting the treatment.    BK 

 

 

[5Bel]

Hi Brian,

 

Your cab mods really make a big difference. If I use MJT ends again it is something I will do. I may even try a do it to my 4Cig depending on how much damage it causes getting the connector off in the first place. I have spare connector so may be able to graft in a piece from that rather than plastic and filler. Looking forward to seeing more progress.

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Ian,

      I think the gangway is certainly worth stretching and changes the look of the cab, but i'm not sure if altering the cable recesses was worth all the trouble, it's only noticeable when comparing with photos. I'm prepared to spend more time detailing the cabs on modern stock, because they are the "face" of the model and draws the eye. Another feature which is prominent on the front ends, are the angled guard irons that point down to the track, can't see anything supplied in the kit, so i will have to conjure something up to fit to the bogies.

 

                                Cheers, Brian.

[Ceptic]

 

Incidentally, i measured the height of the inside of the original 4TC gangway casting, it was 23mm, which is 5'9" in real life. So a lot of passengers would have to duck down to pass through.  My modified gangway has an internal height of just over 25mm, which is 6'3", i wonder what the prototype headroom was? I hope Mike Trice isn't reading this!   

Hi Brian.

 

Your re-working of those MJT front end gangways, certainly, looks the business.

 

I don't know whether you saw the topic covering the review of Hornby's 4-VEP ?, where the look of their cab came under criticism (Especially, from myself, among others') 

 

Post # 1084 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17158-Hornby-class-423-4-vep/page-44

Post #s 1181 & 1184  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17158-Hornby-class-423-4-vep/page-48

 

The inside dimensions for the gangway connection frame / rubbing plate are 6'- 6" high X 3' wide. 

 

Here's my  up-dated (Work in progress !)JPEG drawing of the 1963 Stock's front end. (The PDF version being too large to upload)

Note that the ends form a continuous curve in plan view.

 

 

Edited to include a PNG version, after a recommendation from Clive Mortimore.

 

 

It's definitely clearer. Many thanks, Clive.  

 

Regards.

[Grampus]

Brian,

 

in your post of 3rd January you mentioned scoring in the door outlines onto the vinyl sides of your models.  Just wondered if you had actually done this yet and if so, did you encounter any particular difficulties? (Was the vinyl reasonably forgiving, or prone to tearing, for example?)  Reason for my asking is that there is a 4-TC lurking in my kit stash as well: the lack of definition to the doors is one of the things putting me off presently.  Grateful for any advice you may have, please. TVM.   

 

Regards,

 

Paul

[SRman]

Paul: I tried something similar with the Southern Pride BRCW Bulleid coach sides, where I scored the deep panel gaps around the main windows. If the knife started to get blunt then a small amount of edge tearing could occur but generally I would mark it as a success.

 

Brian: Where I have used MJT or Southern Pride castings they have had the guard irons on a white metal front piece. However, on some other conversions I have made up my own from Plastruct 'T' section strip. I used too small a section but in principle it works.

 

Oh yes: I agree with all the others here that the front modifications do make a great improvement. I'll have to check but I think I used a compromise position for the gangways (unmodified) when I did my Lima/4 VEP conversion using MJT sides and ends many years ago. Brian's idea is MUCH better!!

[Grampus]

SRman,

 

thank you.  Reassuring to know that scoring the sides successfully is possible before I unleash the 'P' cutter.  Much appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Paul

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Ceptic, Paul and SRman,

 

Ceptic, that's a wonderful piece of technical drawing, very inspiring. Thanks for confirming the gangway measurement. Yes, i gave my opinion on the disappointing Hornby VEP, particularly the cab front, on earlier VEP thread pages. In fact i recall you helped us with the VEP versus CEP model body dimensions, when i was concerned that the former looked somewhat squat. 

 

Paul, i have scored all the 4TC doors now, although you won't see it in my earliest pics, even now it's not that obvious because of the printed black lines, they should become more apparent when the bodies are repainted. Incidentally, i'm also adding window frames and door detail to give greater relief. I can't stress strongly enough, that one has to be very careful when scoring, cos there's no second chance, it has to be in line first time. I used a surgical scalpel and a straight-edged piece of 30thou plasticard, which can be held against the curved profile sides. You can feel the vinyl give, as you score, but as SRman mentioned the hard clear plastic underneath will eventually start to make the blade blunt, after doing all four cars.

 

SRman, i think the guard irons may only be in certain kits, possibly the early ones using RTR bogies, but i could be wrong. I'll have a look through some other kits.

 

I was just going to load up some pics of my cheap and cheerful low-tech sprung cab gangway adaptors, i'm running late now!

 

                                                                     Cheers, Brian.

[Grampus]

Brian,

 

thank you: glad to hear it worked okay.  Using 30 thou plasticard as a flexible guide sounds like a great idea.

 

Cheers, Paul

[Brian Kirby]

Before we get to the gangways, we'd better do the couplings first. Within the unit i've been using up old Airfix narrow couplings, removing the hook from one side, they tend to run more flexibly that way, you can even glue the hook down, since these are non-functioning couplings.

 

 

The cab ends need a Bachmann Blue Riband (the narrow ones) coupling for automatic magnetic uncoupling, the "straight" type can be made to fit the SP nylon bogie coupling arm, which mimmicks the old Airfix-style coupling box. My minimum radius curves are 2'6", so i can position the coupling bar just about half a millimetre or so proud of the buffers and gangway, to achieve realistic close coupling. As you can see, i've added one of my funny looking office staples to the coupling dropper.            BK

 

[Brian Kirby]

Now i can get two units fairly closely coupled, but we still end up with a yawning gap, and my passengers need to get to the buffet car. My solution is to make up floating plates from plasticard, cut to the same profile as the cast gangway, this is then stuck with superglue, to spongey foam rubber cut roughly to the size and shape of the gangway inner. Shame about that wonky buffer on the right, that will need fixing, plus also, don't worry about the slight white overspray on the blue, the whole lot's getting a repaint.

 

 

Using one for each cab, these sprung plates are not permanently fixed, they are just a loose push-fit, and are only intended for use between units, so as not to spoil the look of the leading or trailing cabs. Once the units are coupled, the two plates hold eachother in place. I always use black plasticard, since the two kissing plates are intended to slide across eachother on curves and we don't want any friction from paint or paint wearing off. I also try and use dark colour foam on loco-hauled coaches, again to avoid painting, but it has since occurred to me that SR EMUs would have this area in bright yellow, so perhaps a lighter shade, or even yellow, foam would be better.

 

 

Here are the units slammed together, it's best not to make things too tight, just a light springing is desireable. It doesn't really matter if the plates end up slightly slanted, it depends how the foam is cut and how thick it is, and whether there are any protrusions within the gangway. The black plastic is 30thou and the foam rubber is 5mm thick. Things can be neater and straighter by doing away with the foam at the very top and keep it wholly within the cast gangway, but i don't like the resultant gap at the top. I have thinned down the solebar on the right, to restore the solebar to bogie spacing.        BK

 

[Brian Kirby]

Here's another way of doing it, which might be better for yellow-front EMUs, this time with white 30thou and yellow edging done with ink pen, plus yellow/cream foam rubber only 3mm deep, which is only within the gangway. This results in a gap at the top, but it does help to keep things straighter and less complicated.    BK

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

These four pics show the two halves of the gangway from above, and how they would behave on straight, curved and reverse crossover tracks, by sliding across eachother. The first one should have been straighter and more in line, but that's easily fixed!   BK

 

 

 

[kintbury jon]

Am enjoying this thread.  I particularly like the work that you've done with the gangways.

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Jon,

      A great big hole has now appeared in the floor of the 2HAP DMBS, making space for the traction equipment.        BK

 

 

 

[Colin parks]

Well, well, well - you have been busy Brian!

 

This looks like a very efficient use of components and taking a leaf out of the Southern Electric's own book by re-using components such as motors and so on. 

 

I bet the 2 HAP will pull just about anything you care to put behind it when you have finished with it.  It's quite a good time to be doing this sort of thing, with new 4 CEPs on offer (or were) at £89.00.  A Black Beelte motor bogie alone would set you back around £55.00 - and that is without the cosmetic side frames.

 

Watching this with great interest,

 

Colin

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Colin, welcome back,

    Yes you, and i'm sure many others guessed it, the motor bogie from the Bachmann CEP is going into the 2HAP, both classes use Mk4 bogies. Can someone remind me what the difference is between Mk3 and Mk4 motor bogies? I will be cutting the cast mounting block in half, this will once again provide the bogie pivot. I've cut quite a few of these on Bachmann DMUs, it makes quite an improvement, but they are a tough sawing job. I tend to alternate between large and junior hacksaws, then clean up with a coarse file. I'm toying with the idea of re-locating the motor, by extending the carden shaft, failing that i may just re-mount it lower down, below the windows.       BK

 

[Brian Kirby]

So we've chopped the cast motor block in half and cleaned up the rough edges, now we can plonk it into the 2HAP motor coach, leaving the first compartment with clear windows. You will notice that the cut was outside of the retaining bolt holes, the SP floor can be drilled and tapped 10BA once the bogie pivot position is confirmed. I needed to raise it slightly from the floor, to maintain correct ride height, this was done with plastic strip. Since there are no forward location holes, i glued a plastic wedge to the underside of the cab roof, so i justed needed two 10BA bolts to hold it at the back, the original Bachmann screws were too short.

 

 

Here's the body temporarily back on the gearbox bogie, the passenger compartment is clear, as is the driver's cab, the cast block now only obscures the guard's double doors, but i can live with that. Looks like those hinge holes on the right need re-drilling. Whoops.

 

 

Here's the original motor back in position, it still intrudes too much, unless you camouflage it with passengers, but we can do better than that. 

                                                    BK

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Hiding the motor can be difficult on some suburban units, especially those with short guard's/luggage compartments, like HAPs and EPBs. Even using the old reliable ringfield motor bogies could be awkward, since they could still intrude into the nearest passenger compartment, meaning you lost one row of seats, however i do not want to use Tenshedo tram bogies. My answer here is to use the Bachmann gearbox bogie, but couple this to a longer carden shaft and a smaller motor, which should easily handle a 2-car and perhaps a 2-car dummy unit as well. However, i have dispensed with the flywheel, it's not essential, but could be retro-fitted to the carden shaft, rather than the back of the motor where it would show between the seats.

 

The new motor is positioned in the middle of the vehicle, sitting slightly offset between the forthcoming 3+2 seats, but below the window bottoms, i could cut a hole in the floor if necessary and make it even less conspicuous. I need to create a cradle to hold the motor, the 2mm steel carden shaft is re-cycled from last year's spiral bound calendar and is connected with rubber sleeving. If this arrangement proves successful, i may apply it to the Bachmann 2EPBs. I've worked out a way of close-coupling the original motor and gearbox in the 4CEPs, so again full seating can be restored, i'll cover that in the separate 4CEP thread.

 

                                                Cheers, Brian. 

 

[SRman]

An interesting idea! I would imagine that the longer cardan shaft would give slightly smoother running as the drive angles would be more constant (ie less variable with changes in track angles and gradients).

 

Let us know how the running qualities are when you get the chance to test run it.

[BernardTPM]

I did something very similar on my scratch N gauge Cl.150. The only drawback was that the shaft I used was too thin and tends to buzz, however, since the layout it was built for (back in 1988) still isn't finished it's a problem that doesn't yet need fixing

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Bernie and SRman, apologies for not replying sooner, been a bit busy this week. Since the carden shaft idea, i've come up with a new arrangement, i've altered the motor bogie sideframe moulding clips and turned the mechanism around. Still using the smaller replacement motor, now it's close-coupled and faces towards the cab, leaving the passenger saloon comoletely free of intrusion. The motor shaft is connected to the bogie gearbox by rubber sleeving, the shaft at the other end will have to be cut back, the motor casing does not block the cab windows and should only be seen lower down, if at all. I might turn the motor around with the brush gear outermost, this would be even more low profile. I've mounted the motor on foam rubber, which should insulate the sound, is superglued in place and is also held by the soldered electrical contacts. The original motor is just too big to use with this method. I hope this arrangment is successful and reliable, since i can now fit the full passenger interior.

 

Cheers, Brian.

 

[BernardTPM]

Good thinking Brian - your own motor bogie!

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Bernie,

I think i'll try turning the new motor around on the 2HAP, before i cut any surplus shaft off, hopefully this will result in even less of the motor being visible in the cab. In a similar vein and as an aside, here's my answer for close-coupling the Bachmann 4CEP motor and gearbox in yet another unit. This time there's a bit more room and i can re-use the original motor, albeit without the flywheel. The aim is to clear the passenger saloon of any intrusion and restore the seating, the heavy casting is again cut in half, but retains a couple of fastening bolts, all is now confined to the guard's compartment and first transverse gangway, which seems a fair compromise. The gearbox bogie can remain the same way around, although there is extra cutting of the cast block to clear the motor, which is hard work. BK

 

[Colin parks]

Gosh Brian!

 

Taking a hacksaw to a 4 CEP - I admire your fearless approach to  to modelling!  Are you intending to add weight somewhere else in the 4 CEP's motor coach to compensate for the loss of that part of the casting you have removed?

 

All the best,

 

Colin