Etched Pixels Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 One of the other problems is time. Some of the short railways have done fairly well from the shift in tourism because they are not a day project and so they work for children. I think a lot of heritage rail fans forget that for many children the experience is "Steam train, steam train, look mummy, wanna go, wanna go!" [15 minutes later] "Bored, want the toilet, bored, are we there yet" A lot of the heritage railways are not catering for the "kids, 15 minute ride, tea coffee and toilet" trade. Instead children only exist as primary customers (somewhat grudgingly) for Thomas weekends. That excludes passing trade and daytrippers in many cases. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 Last year was rather unusual in that for once the Primary Spend at tourist attractions in Wales (the cash spent on entry, riding the trains, or similar) was often greater than the Secondary Spend (cups of tea, guide-books, stuff in the shop); it's usually quite reliably the other way round. I do find it surprising that many heritage railways don't really capitalise on the Secondary Spend as much as they could; I've seen some pretty grotty shops and cafes over the years! That said, some are quite excellent - the TR and the W&Ll shops stand out (and the tearoom at Llanfair is famous for its cakes right across the area!) and Spooner's Bar on the Ffr is pretty good too!. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Last year was rather unusual in that for once the Primary Spend at tourist attractions in Wales (the cash spent on entry, riding the trains, or similar) was often greater than the Secondary Spend (cups of tea, guide-books, stuff in the shop); it's usually quite reliably the other way round. I do find it surprising that many heritage railways don't really capitalise on the Secondary Spend as much as they could; I've seen some pretty grotty shops and cafes over the years! That said, some are quite excellent - the TR and the W&Ll shops stand out (and the tearoom at Llanfair is famous for its cakes right across the area!) and Spooner's Bar on the Ffr is pretty good too!. I think that may be because of the ticket prices. My friend and I rode the FR &WHR last year, and had dinner in Spooners every night of our Holiday, as well as buying ice creams and drinks and so on. We didnt skimp in any case, but the amount we spent on food and memorabilia was far otuweighed by the cost of actually riding the trains This isnt a grump, by the way, just a comment that maybe its not too surprising This is to be contrasted with the WHHR, where our biggest spend was money donated to getting 'Russell' running again my friend had gotten in for free (she is in a wheelchair) and so it seemd only reasonable to be gnerous with donations Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Rossington Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 The TR wasn't the only railway in wales hit by the olympics/bad weather etc last summer, the F&WHR traffic figures were down too(although probably not as much), I wouldn't worry too much about it yet, The TR could (hopefully!!) have a bumper year this year! It seems to me that whenever I see a leaflet for the Talyllyn it is literally just that, there never seems to be much mention of the likes of the museum (which I really need to visit) or even the 16mm line, perhaps a bigger marketing campaign is needed this year? I think it was possibly inevitable though that the other railways in wales would have a couple of off years when the WHR opened fully, I'd expect that will start to balance out again eventually. I'd just like to point out to all the people who are saying the F&WHR are expensive to travel on, that a return from Caernarfon to Port works out at 68p per mile, A return journey on the TR works out at 65p per mile. You have to remember that the WHR is the longest heritage railway in the country, therefore its fares are going to be higher than others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Value for tourism is not computed "per mile". It's an event, and the WHR takes all day and costs a fortune. It's very appealing if you want to do a "train day" and to certain holiday company models 'dump the biddies on the train for the day collect them in the coach, tea, dancing, bed', and it allows the coach drivers a day off. For a lot of people however its very expensive, and very long. The TR is a much shorter ride, and you can do it in half a day and visit something else or do the walks. Or you could except the walk publicity was lousy last time I went, and they had no provision at all for left luggage while you did the walking ! Plus Tywyn isn't exactly a bustling metropolis. In fact the woman at the petrol station was very proud that they had two curry houses (one of which it must be said was extremely good at the time). The FR for example could I suspect sell a lot of "ride over the cob and back" short trip tickets if the timetable fitted it (or could be made to which is I admit not a small detail!) Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 The TR wasn't the only railway in wales hit by the olympics/bad weather etc last summer, the F&WHR traffic figures were down too(although probably not as much), I wouldn't worry too much about it yet, The TR could (hopefully!!) have a bumper year this year! It seems to me that whenever I see a leaflet for the Talyllyn it is literally just that, there never seems to be much mention of the likes of the museum (which I really need to visit) or even the 16mm line, perhaps a bigger marketing campaign is needed this year? I think it was possibly inevitable though that the other railways in wales would have a couple of off years when the WHR opened fully, I'd expect that will start to balance out again eventually. I'd just like to point out to all the people who are saying the F&WHR are expensive to travel on, that a return from Caernarfon to Port works out at 68p per mile, A return journey on the TR works out at 65p per mile. You have to remember that the WHR is the longest heritage railway in the country, therefore its fares are going to be higher than others. As I said, my comment was not intended to be a grumble about Train Fares, I was perfectly willing to pay the close to £50 to ride from Port to Caernarfon and back, and will most likely do so again (also incidentally, thank you to everyone who helped my friend on and off the trains, wuch helpfulness is rather hard to come across), but my point was that when someone spends £50 on tickets, then it cant really be taken as a shock that they dont spend the same again on Memorabilia and refreshments. I bought a few ice creeams, drinks and Meals in Spooners Bar during that Holiday, so I was hardly skimping on them, but even then, it didnt come close to the amount i spend on tickets for the FR and the WHR. I agree about the Tal-y-Llyn's location working against it. Tywyn is an adorable sleepy little town, that suffers badly from having almost nothing to do aside from visiting the railway. I adored the museum, and the gorgeous stock on the TR, but it has to be said that even a railway nut like I was rather bored by the amount of time I had to wait (with nothing to do) to get to and from the railway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Rossington Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Alan, Speaking from experience, most passengers with kids will realise just how long the railway is and will bring suitable entertainment etc. Most will even have an extended Layover at port, so for example take the 1000 EX-Caernarfon which arrives Port at 1220, then instead of getting the 1245 back they will wait and get the 1540 back thus giving the kids a break. You would be surprised just how many people break the journey up, so for example do Caernarfon to Rhyd Ddu one day and then Port to Rhyd Ddu or Port to Beddgelert another. The FR has an advantage over the WHR in that it has Tan-y-Bwlch which has its own cafe that is still railway owned so people can break their journey there and still spend money on the Railway, The WHR doesn't have anything like that... yet. My point is that yes its long, yes its expensive, but if all of the other railways were the same length they would be charging the same. Edge, Sorry if you thought my comment rude, It wasn't meant to be! You would be surprised at how many people do pay extra for food etc, the on train services is one of the most profitable departments within the whole Railway, but yes, its very rarely a similar amount to what the same passenger has spent on the fare. There is one family though, who travel on the train at least once a month, 3 adults & 3 kids and they regularly spend upwards of £100 quid on food on the train........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. I'm not against the £50 big ride/day out. There are lots of people who will pay a fiver for a ten minute ride, a walk round the exhibits, a coffee/beer and back in the car for the next entertainment. It doesn't matter to such people how long the railway is, anymore than someone commuting from London to Peterborough cares if their train goes to Scotland later. The WHR is a fantastic trip (and I speak as the owner of the headboard of the first train, which is currently in the museum at Tywyn), but a good leisure business hits all the trade it can and should IMHO be looking to get both sets of trade. Tywyn btw also has the church as well as the railway museum ;-) Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Rossington Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Ah I get you now! Although in theory I would agree, last year (sort of) proved otherwise. We ran 2 shuttles per day, granted they were early morning/late afternoon from Port to Beddgelert, most of which ran nearly empty, whilst the trains that did the whole length of the line were full. I actually managed to do a whole round trip from PRT to BED on the Saturday of the Blaenau 30 weekend without seeing a single passenger! We had 2 guards and a driver though! Maybe given more advertisement and a more frequent service such short journeys might be better patronised, but unfortunately at the moment (like on the big railway) rolling stock to operate such a service just isnt available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I suppose the WHHR also competes with the WHR/FR in that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Rossington Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Yes, to a certain extent, although I think most people do port to Beddgelert or Caernarfon to Beddgelert. It has been said by a couple of our Cae Pawb signallers that its quite embarrassing to stand at the crossing as our trains whizz past full to the brim whilst the WHHR trains potter past with barely 5 people on board! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 One point which was well made by a colleague in the tourist industry some years ago was that people want 'value for time' as much as 'value for money' - that is, they are generally looking for something to fill a morning or to fill an afternoon (or to fill a whole day, come to that) and don't want to be back on the street after half an hour. So after you've wandered round the aquarium or whatever it is, you have a cuppa and a bite in the caff and then look round the shop and watch the video in the little cinema and feel that you've had a good time; if it was just the aquarium with no extras you'd quite likely feel short-changed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted February 28, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 28, 2013 One point which was well made by a colleague in the tourist industry some years ago was that people want 'value for time' as much as 'value for money' - that is, they are generally looking for something to fill a morning or to fill an afternoon (or to fill a whole day, come to that) and don't want to be back on the street after half an hour. So after you've wandered round the aquarium or whatever it is, you have a cuppa and a bite in the caff and then look round the shop and watch the video in the little cinema and feel that you've had a good time; if it was just the aquarium with no extras you'd quite likely feel short-changed. I've certainly made that calcualtion in the past. Many years ago on holiday in West Cornwall with two young children it rained every day and my wife and I became quite expert at judging how many hours of warmth, shelter and entertainment you could get out of the entry fee to the various attractions that we visited. The answer was usually not long for the 2 year old. The 9 month old didn't care. We just got wet pushing two buggies round every harbour in Cornwall (or so it seemed) A narrow gauge steam railway withe a ride of about an hour in each direction and a cafe would have been heaven for us. On the grounds of good taste I won't tell the story of Mevagissey car park and how to empty a full potty, however we did end up on the beach at Carbis Bay one morning with me and SWMBO sheltering behind a windreak holding umbrelleas and the eldest happily playing in the sand. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 On the grounds of good taste I won't tell the story of Mevagissey car park and how to empty a full potty, . Jamie Go on Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted April 10, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 10, 2013 this week we are having a short midweek break at the haven near porthmadog we have travelled from crewe by car to get here and the sat nav gave us 2 main options: crewe - wrexham - bala - trawsfynydd - porthmadog at 76 miles and 2:20 crewe - chester - Llandudno jn - betws y coed - porthmadog at 96 miles and 2:36 however i decided that being as i'd never been from carenarfon to porthmadog i'd ignore it and go that way instead which once it recalculated after passing the black cat roundabout near llandudno jn was 105 miles but still only 2:40 mins, we only hit roadworks between dwygyfylchi and llanfairfechan which slowed us down to 40mph, the road between bangor and caernarfon is really good now as is the road between caernarfon and porthmadog, i was surprised just how quick it was, and there is the problem i can see with the likes of talyllyn and fairbourne the infrastructure to get there is terrible compared to the futher north tourist spots, similarly coming from bala direction the road from dolgellau north is also very good now giving people less incentive to go off the beaten track a bit and see the smaller attractions, the time it takes to towyn (20 miles from dolgellau) is a lot more than it takes to do the 20 miles up to portmadog, and portmadog is on the way to somewhere as such, i am debating which way to go back at the end of the week and i'm pretty sure i will be going back via caernarfon again as once at bangor i can keep a pretty much constant 60 mph cruise all the way back to chester without having to change up and down the gears all the time so on to the railway, well what can i say, so glad we did it end to end but in my opinion its not really a family day out with an 8 and 3 year old in tow, as i was worried about its just too long with nothing to keep them occupied after the first few miles, you have seen one lamb you have seen them all, thankfully i packed the ipad and iphone to let them play with when attention was waining, personally i found the line to be fascinating and would have happily sat in the open carriage the whole journey taking pics but the kids and indeed my wife were bored after the first hour, although she was not feeling well either, we had a carriage to ourselves as everyone seemed to clamber into the 2nd class coaches at portmadog so we wandered down to the 3rd class coach at the end which had the open coach next to it so i could nip in and out for photos en route. the main problem with the journey is as its such a long trip you only have about 1:20 in caernarfon when you get there so youcant really do anything like visit the castle etc as you are clock watching to get the train back, we ended up going and having a coffee in the town square, a quick walk along the main street and then headed back to the station, basically the day out IS the train journey with a leg stretch in the middle the return journey was a bit different to the outward trip, there were others in the coach this time and again after the first hour, possibly only 30 mins this time the kids were bored, the eldest did enjoy seeing snowdon and kept asking me to translate all the signs for him but the youngest just wanted to play with the ipad before rhyd ddu they were practically tearing each others hair out and shouting at each other with boredom which in turn was making me more and more concious of the dirty looks we were getting from other passengers, thankfully a break at rhydd ddu while we waited for the up train to pass allowed us to get out and stretch our legs again and gethin was allowed to go on the loco and look at the fire which he was really pleased with, so he told me when i put him to bed earlier " the best part of the day was seeing the fire daddy" apparently. on we went back towards porthmadog, both with their heads in ipad/iphone to keep the peace, however by now there were a few other youngsters in the coach crying and screaming, on arrival into portmadog harbour station we noted even more families with sreaming/crying/sleeping kids that had also done the full trip with parents like us looking like something out of the walking dead!! so im my opinion, a family railway? No, too long with nothing to do in the time you have at the far end. value for money? i'll be honest i only did the trip today as i have to give my priv passes back on friday when i leave chiltern, the trip today cost us £34 priv rate, the normal fare is approx £30 return BUT kids travel free, one with every paying adult so a family of 4 is £60ish, again being honest i probably wouldn't have gone if i had to pay that much and gone for the cheaper and shorter out and back trip on the ffestiniog railway, don't get me wrong £15 a person for a family of 4 is not that bad BUT last year my merlin passes that get me unlimited access to the likes of alton towers, tussauds, warwick castle, sealife centres only cost us £300 for the family of 4 for a whole years countrywide entertainment would i recommend it? i'm going to say yes most definatly without a shadow of a doubt IF you can visit without kids and just admire the railway for what it is, a masterpiece of engineering, enjoy the locos for what they are, utterly fantastic, the scenery for what it is, quite frankly stunning, bear in mind im welsh, was born in north wales, went to school in llwyngwril and bala and only moved from wales 6 years ago, i grew up with this kind of scenery all round me, used to see it from the school bus every day, its not until you don't see it every day, day in day out, that you can appreciate just how beautiful it really is, the most obvious beauty is the aber pass, that goes without saying, but the bit from the summit past pitts head down to waenfawr is beautiful, the way the track winds round the mountain ledge is something to behold if you only get one chance to go on it, do it (and i should be sticking up for the smaller railways really) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted April 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2013 finally got some pics to upload.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 A point Edge briefly touched upon a few posts ago that does not help the Talyllyn is timetabling. Most of my visits to North Wales involves staying at Dinas Mawddwy, from where it is far more convenient to catch the train at Abergynolwyn. Anyone staying in the vicinity of Dolgellau, Mach. or Barmouth will find the same thing. The size of the car park there suggests that this is a popular option, yet having a lie in, enjoying a leisurely breakfast then ambling sedately over the bwlch to Abergynolwyn station means arriving the best part of two hours before the first train gets there. For an enthusiast or a walker (I am both) that is not a problem, but for a casual visitor or a family with children to keep entertained that is more than long enough to think of somewhere else to go and depart. Then, a couple of years ago, I stayed on a farm outside Bryncrug, across the other side of the valley from Rhyd yr onen. One hope was to take the first train of the day to Abergynolwyn, walk up Cadair Idris then catch the last train of the day back to Rhyd yr onen. As North Wales is a walkers magnet I refuse to believe that I am the only person to have considered that, but when I e-mailed the Talyllyn about whether such an expedition was feasable the gist of the reply I received was "only if you are Superman". Similarly, catching the first return journey of the day to Tywyn with the intention of taking an Arriva train to either Penhelig or Barmouth for a walk back through the hills fell flat on its face because the first Talyllyn train back down the valley wouldnt reach Wharf until about 1pm, which is late enough to risk finding yourself still high in the hills when dusk arrives. I would suggest that a first train of the day that is a fair bit earlier than at present would do a lot to improve passenger numbers, particularly amongst those whose outward leg is towards the coast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickinwestwales Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Have only had the pleasure of the WHR once so far-and what a treat-Whilst my ideal journey would be behind Russell with a couple of the heritage coaches,those monster Garretts won me over in seconds,the scenery is as stunning as promised-the october weather as dramatic & changeable as one might imagine,a charming young lady bringing fresh cooked bacon butties to our seats,two delightful old dears on the next table who "come here every few weeks `cos we used to ride on the old line as gels & it takes us back" -(Bertie Woosters Great Aunts to the life) A fine half day out-Expensive-perhaps at first sight,but cheaper than tickets to watch a 6 nations game in the stadium (and as an Englishman,far more satisfying.......) Prolly the most environmentally friendly way for a large number of people to view that part of Snowdonia & a chance to travel on what is without doubt Britains flagship N/G line- Value for money-without a doubt....Go again-Absolutely Regards to all Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Interesting views, one thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that most of the holidaymakers that go to that area are ones that go there year after year... So the question for the WHR will be whether those holiday makers will feel it worth their while going again the next year, and the year after that, etc., etc. They will have to think of ways of making it something someone wants to do, so, for instance, how DO the WHR make such a long trip more child friendly? Just a thought! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 Given the (understandable) concern about the child-friendliness of a long trip on the WHR, can anyone enlighten me whether any steps are taken on, for instance, the Glacier Express to make it child-friendly? Or is it assumed to be simply for the grown-ups? (I've done several of the Swiss ng lines, but never that trip - must go one day!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 24, 2013 Given the (understandable) concern about the child-friendliness of a long trip on the WHR, can anyone enlighten me whether any steps are taken on, for instance, the Glacier Express to make it child-friendly? Or is it assumed to be simply for the grown-ups? (I've done several of the Swiss ng lines, but never that trip - must go one day!) I haven't used the 'Glacier Express' itself but have done most of its route, several times in some cases, on ordinary service trains. Firstly there is a lot to look at and that would satisfy some children but interestingly - admittedly at the shoulders of the season - there seemed to be very few children about apart from those going to/from school. On holidays the n.g lines seem to be heavily used by locals heading for walking in the mountains and the children are clearly looking forward to a day out so are possibly a bit boisterous but - as usual on the continent - well behaved in such circumstances. The Glacier Express seems in any case to be some sort of mobile tourist reservation and those who can afford it are unlikely to be encumbered with their offspring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Interesting views, one thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that most of the holidaymakers that go to that area are ones that go there year after year... So the question for the WHR will be whether those holiday makers will feel it worth their while going again the next year, and the year after that, etc., etc. They will have to think of ways of making it something someone wants to do, so, for instance, how DO the WHR make such a long trip more child friendly? Just a thought! The obvious answer for those who worry it's too long or too expensive is not to attempt to do the whole route. Breaking the journey at Beddgelert is probably the obvious thing to do as you can walk down into the village or even the pass while work is due to begin on a path through the forest up to Rhyd Ddu. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 24, 2013 The obvious answer for those who worry it's too long or too expensive is not to attempt to do the whole route. Breaking the journey at Beddgelert is probably the obvious thing to do as you can walk down into the village or even the pass while work is due to begin on a path through the forest up to Rhyd Ddu. Chris I suspect the original Welsh Highland must have understood this, as ISTR not many trains ran beyond Beddgelert in either direction. A change was normally necessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted April 24, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 24, 2013 The obvious answer for those who worry it's too long or too expensive is not to attempt to do the whole route. Breaking the journey at Beddgelert is probably the obvious thing to do as you can walk down into the village or even the pass while work is due to begin on a path through the forest up to Rhyd Ddu. Chris Alternatively travel the whole line in one direction and come back by bus. A ticket is available for this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted April 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 25, 2013 Alternatively travel the whole line in one direction and come back by bus. A ticket is available for this. we probably should have done that, how long does the bus take though? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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