First the Fairbourne, now the Talyllyn...

[James]

and often sample the tea room at Abergynolwyn (now has bottled Purple Moose ale).

 

Do you know what, it actually really jars with me when desitinations which sell themselves as family days out are serving alcohol.

 

I'm not tee-total by any means and enjoy a drink (Christmas in your village pub cannot be beaten for atmosphere!), but it always seems at odds with what they promote for families.

[Ohmisterporter]

I am a member of the Caravan Club, which produces an annual Great Days Out booklet through which members can obtain discounts on visits to the attractions listed. The FR/WHR is one of those, with 20% discount to CC members. This is a welcome saving on the full price fares and we rode on both railways. The Talyllyn is not included in this scheme; I am wondering if there is a missed opportunity here. As has been posted earlier there are many caravaners in the area wanting something to do for a day. Perhaps this is a marketing opportunity for the TR?

 

Edit: - I have emailed both the TR and CC, and will let you know if I hear anything. Fingers crossed.

[wombatofludham]

North Wales is bliss for those of us that like railways. 

 

A week in Wales for me is like a military campaign as I have got time tables and driving times from where I'm staying so I know what time to get up, whats running when etc.  Last year I even planned a trip to FR based upon what was running when.

 

Old adage applies "Use it or loose it."

I like people who plan ahead and get the maximum out of a visit.  Pity the rest of the world don't share our belief that forward planning maximises benefit. I genuinely despair at other people who can't get organised and expect the rest of the world to accomodate their lack of planning!

 

Sadly though, I do know that the vast majority of heritage railways rely for the majority of their income on Joe and Joanna Normal rather than enthusiasts.  Enthusiasts are important of course, without them there would be no workforce, no railway in the first place, but once operational, they enter the world of "leisure entertainment" and the best performing lines financially milk that role to extremis.  Anyone doubting this, look next time at the retail shop which is invariably the last thing a visitor will be directed towards after a visit.  You'll get a corner with railway books, videos, sometimes modelling equipment and sometimes clothing.  The rest of the shop will be Thomas, and general area souvenirs.  The % shelf and floorspace may vary, but at least half will be general merchandise aimed at the Family Normal.  That's certainly the case at Tywyn and Porthmadog, and even on the SVR where the Kidderminster shop probably has more floorspace given over to rail enthusiast merchandise, there's still about 50% family oriented toys and souvenirs.  I think the Welsh narrow gauge lines are even more dependant on the Normal family visits than the bigger lines, where you will get loco enthusiasts coming along for galas and the like.  I don't think there is the same degree of partisan support for Welsh narrow gauge amongst the mass of enthusiasts, so they will be more susceptible to economic or climatic woes than say the Bluebell or SVR.

[Oldddudders]

  I don't think there is the same degree of partisan support for Welsh narrow gauge amongst the mass of enthusiasts, so they will be more susceptible to economic or climatic woes than say the Bluebell or SVR.

Important point, I think. One of the Big Changes in the last 40 years is the rise and rise of the English preserved line. In September 1970 I was one of four BR employees (all controllers, actually) who set off to "do" the Welsh narrow-gauge lines. In Alan's new-ish Austin Cambridge estate we sallied forth from the SouthEast, and took in the Talyllyn, Festiniog, Snowdon Mountain, Vale of Rheidol and Welshpool & Llanfair (which in those days was some way short of Welshpool). My point is that these quaint lines were the summit of traditional steam railwaying in that era - the preserved lines in England were then still a bit embryonic, and in some cases lacked any sort of true heritage. By contrast, these Welsh lines had the feel of C19 railways - they felt "draught" rather than "fizz", to use a Real Ale metaphor, maybe.

 

Contrast that with 2013 - where fine preserved lines exist across the UK, offering the family a steam experience in most cases less than 50 miles from home.

 

I hope the Talyllyn picks up. After all, it is - and will certainly remain - the only line on which I volunteered to do works, having dug ditches at Pendre and dropped ballast on the Nant Gwernol extension in Easter weekend 1973.

[Andy Kirkham]

I don't suppose it was a terribly significant contribution to the TR's passenger numbers, but there used to be quite a few BR excursions to the Cambrian Coast, a good many of them from a considerable distance away. For instance one Sunday in 1972 I traveled on a day excursion from Bristol that set down at either Towyn or Barmouth; many of those passengers would have ridden on the TR. The fare was probably about £2. On another occasion I was able to do the Vale of Rheidol by means of a day excursion to Aberystwyth.

 

Nowadays making a day trip from Bristol to ride on the Talyllyn is scarcely conceiveable, but such trips were commonplace then.

[Oldddudders]

I don't suppose it was a terribly significant contribution to the TR's passenger numbers, but there used to be quite a few BR excursions to the Cambrian Coast, a good many of them from a considerable distance away. For instance one Sunday in 1972 I traveled on a day excursion from Bristol that set down at either Towyn or Barmouth; many of those passengers would have ridden on the TR. The fare was probably about £2. On another occasion I was able to do the Vale of Rheidol by means of a day excursion to Aberystwyth.

 

Nowadays making a day trip from Bristol to ride on the Talyllyn is scarcely conceiveable, but such trips were commonplace then.

The BR brand-name "Pleasure-Seeker" comes to mind for these. I suspect the concept does not fit well with TOC fiefdoms.

[Gwiwer]

The BR Pleasure-Seeker excursions were a great way for Joe Public (and usually his family as well) to go places and see / do things they might otherwise never have the opportunity for at a reasonable cost.  Bristol - Towyn and back would be a typical day out for what?  A fiver each?  I'm sure there was inter-regional paperwork and pathing issues to resolve but it must surely be far harder to promote and operate something like that in today's regime.  Quite apart from the fact that there isn't any rolling stock available for it.  BR had quite a few rakes of what were basically "Director's Reserve" Mk1s or those used only for weekday peak trips otherwise which could easily be appropriated fora weekend jolly.  All under one umbrella as well which would have had an effect on operating costs and ticket prices.

 

I seem to remember there were trips to Towyn and with a TR ride as an add-on extra run from Sussex once or twice as well.  I have to confess to having been more interested in the possibility, at a younger age, of "track bashing" all the way to Pwllheli which wasn't possible on the timings offered so didn't bother going at all.  To my shame I have yet to ride the TR despite having passed through Towyn by rail and road numerous times.

[The Stationmaster]

The BR Pleasure-Seeker excursions were a great way for Joe Public (and usually his family as well) to go places and see / do things they might otherwise never have the opportunity for at a reasonable cost.  Bristol - Towyn and back would be a typical day out for what?  A fiver each?  I'm sure there was inter-regional paperwork and pathing issues to resolve but it must surely be far harder to promote and operate something like that in today's regime.  Quite apart from the fact that there isn't any rolling stock available for it.  BR had quite a few rakes of what were basically "Director's Reserve" Mk1s or those used only for weekday peak trips otherwise which could easily be appropriated fora weekend jolly.  All under one umbrella as well which would have had an effect on operating costs and ticket prices.

 

I seem to remember there were trips to Towyn and with a TR ride as an add-on extra run from Sussex once or twice as well.  I have to confess to having been more interested in the possibility, at a younger age, of "track bashing" all the way to Pwllheli which wasn't possible on the timings offered so didn't bother going at all.  To my shame I have yet to ride the TR despite having passed through Towyn by rail and road numerous times.

 

The only real problems that mitigate against doing it now are any restrictions within an operating company's licence (on what sort of trains they might operate and where) and lack of resources.  But both of these areas are effectively covered by a number of other operators who are wholly in the 'excursion train' business - and for them it is simply a question of weighing up what is most profitable.

 

Compared with, say, the 1970s, the 'day excursion' market is a wholly different thing following, really, the lead set by VSOE in operating upmarket trains with quality dining and decent drinks thrown in going to carefully selected destinations that fit a certain marketing area.  That way they make more money because they can charge premium prices and they can concentrate on those originating areas which fit their market model.  And if they didn't do that they would not make enough to stay in business and have stock and other resources to hire into - for example - the 'steam special' market.

[big jim]

the other problem with "inter region trains" as such going down the cambrian is the stupid signalling system so whatever wanted to go down there would need to either be loco hauled and have the loco swapped out or piloted by a 97/3 from shrewsbury or passengers detrained and swapped to ertms fitted 158s, due to lack of sidings etc then towyn is a no no for loco hauled unless it ran onwards to barmouth which is probably where day trippers to the area would want to go given the choice between the 2 destinations

[DavidLong]

the other problem with "inter region trains" as such going down the cambrian is the stupid signalling system so whatever wanted to go down there would need to either be loco hauled and have the loco swapped out or piloted by a 97/3 from shrewsbury or passengers detrained and swapped to ertms fitted 158s, due to lack of sidings etc then towyn is a no no for loco hauled unless it ran onwards to barmouth which is probably where day trippers to the area would want to go given the choice between the 2 destinations

I was just about to make that point and you beat me to it! With only four locos currently allowed* on the Cambrian and, as is the current way, ATW's 158s being tightly diagrammed there seems to be only limited scope for extras to run on the system.

Connected with the introduction of ERTMS was the suspension of the Cambrian coast steam services which were modelled on and looked like they may become the Welsh version of The Jacobite. I have rather lost track of where the operators are with this; still trying to work out if you can fit the ERTMS equipment into the cab of a steam locomotive, I assume. I don't know if these services ever brought any significant business to the Talyllyn but I would expect that any additional attractions in the area, especially rail orientated ones, may have some beneficial spin-off.

 

David

 

* Or, as Jim suggests, piloting non-ERTMS fitted locos

[edcayton]

Whatis a 97/3 please?

 

Ed

[jamie92208]

Whatis a 97/3 please?

 

Ed

One of the four modified Class 37's in yellow livery that have been fitted with the ERTMS equipment and are thus the only locos allowed to lead trains on the Cambrian at the moment.

 

Jamie

[edcayton]

Thank you

 

Ed

[Hobby]

 

Do you know what, it actually really jars with me when destinations which sell themselves as family days out are serving alcohol.

 

I'm not tee-total by any means and enjoy a drink (Christmas in your village pub cannot be beaten for atmosphere!), but it always seems at odds with what they promote for families.

 

I don't agree with that at all, they are adding another possible sale, that's all... I can remember as a kid being left outside because pubs wouldn't let kids in, when we had our kids in the late 80s we always tried to find one that would allow them in, but they were few and far between. If you go to Europe you'll find that all the cafes at the preserved lines (and even McDonalds) serve alcohol... Some of the Saxon lines even have a travelling bar... It doesn't do them any harm and I can't see it doing any harm to the TR... I certainly wouldn't want to see a return to the dark ages when kids had to stay at home and pubs were for grown-ups only...

 

Back to the TR, I wish them all the best, but I'm afraid the rather closer W&L will still get my trade and I have no interest at all in the WHR, but that's just my personal preference...

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I don't agree with that at all, they are adding another possible sale, that's all... I can remember as a kid being left outside because pubs wouldn't let kids in, when we had our kids in the late 80s we always tried to find one that would allow them in, but they were few and far between. If you go to Europe you'll find that all the cafes at the preserved lines (and even McDonalds) serve alcohol... Some of the Saxon lines even have a travelling bar... It doesn't do them any harm and I can't see it doing any harm to the TR... I certainly wouldn't want to see a return to the dark ages when kids had to stay at home and pubs were for grown-ups only...

 

Back to the TR, I wish them all the best, but I'm afraid the rather closer W&L will still get my trade and I have no interest at all in the WHR, but that's just my personal preference...

 

I agree with you here! There's nothing wrong with them selling alcohol, especially when supporting another local business. And besides, the WHR and Ffestiniog sell Purple Moose products on their trains as well as at the bar, and according to many on this thread, these lines are a better family day out! I do agree that if you're on a family day out with young children, you probably shouldn't be drinking, but these railways aren't just a family attraction.

 

There can't be many finer pleasures in life than sipping a top quality ale whilst taking in the beautiful Welsh scenery, listening to a hard working steam locomotive and chatting with relatives or old friends can there?

 

*Edited to improve my grammar.

[dagrizz]

The BR brand-name "Pleasure-Seeker" comes to mind for these. I suspect the concept does not fit well with TOC fiefdoms.

 

 

I remember taking a few day-trips on similar trains in the early 70's but they were called Merry-Makers, not pleasure seekers. Perhaps the difference was 1st or 2nd class?

[James]

I don't agree with that at all, they are adding another possible sale, that's all... I can remember as a kid being left outside because pubs wouldn't let kids in, when we had our kids in the late 80s we always tried to find one that would allow them in, but they were few and far between. If you go to Europe you'll find that all the cafes at the preserved lines (and even McDonalds) serve alcohol... Some of the Saxon lines even have a travelling bar... It doesn't do them any harm and I can't see it doing any harm to the TR... I certainly wouldn't want to see a return to the dark ages when kids had to stay at home and pubs were for grown-ups only...

 

Back to the TR, I wish them all the best, but I'm afraid the rather closer W&L will still get my trade and I have no interest at all in the WHR, but that's just my personal preference...

 

The cafe culture in Europe has a toattly different feel and I've always enjoyed it on holidays, but I stand by what I say (and Europe does it much, much better - in France, for example, town centres on a Friday nioght couldn't be more different from here!). I know it brings more money in it, but it's not something that sits well with me.

 

Travelling back from Watford and London on a friday late afternoon, we'd often have a drink from the buffet car. But, that seems a very different environment from heritage lines.

 

I do agree about the W&L - it's one of my favourites even though it perhaps feels the 'least Welsh' of all the narrow gauge lines.

 

There can't be many finer pleasures in life than sipping a top quality ale whilst taking in the beautiful Welsh scenery, listening to a hard working steam locomotive and chatting with relatives or old friends can there?

Aside from alcohol numbing the experience of some relations, I won't be changing my mind.

 

And why would you want alcohol to take the edge of an experience like that?

[Donw]

It is sad to hear the TR is not doing well. I always enjoy travelling on it. It suffers from the fact that Towyn is not the most appealing of places the railway (the std gauge not the TR) rather cuts the town off from the beach. Not much is made of the attractions around the town. There is a great bit of beach between Towyn and Aberdovey if you know where to park and then walk across the golf course but not much use to the average family. The walk along the Dysynni is wonderful but again lacks easy car access. For those who love walking the walks above Nat Gwernol are well worth the bother but again I cannot see families with young kids being attracted to them. These things are beyond the TR's control. I shall have to go again this year if possible and give them some support.

Don

[Oldddudders]

I remember taking a few day-trips on similar trains in the early 70's but they were called Merry-Makers, not pleasure seekers. Perhaps the difference was 1st or 2nd class?

It may well have been a Regional variation. I'm not sure the Pleasure Seeker sets included much first class - and I wasn't entitled to it in those days! I do know that the chap who seemed to organise such things on the South Eastern Division had a label by his desk that said The Pleasure Streaker! I went on one (as a paying passenger) to Bridgnorth and we had a great day. Interestingly, two of the volunteer bar staff in the buffet at that preserved station rode back with us, skipping off at Clapham Junction to catch a Brighton-line train home.

 

And with that "bridge" to alcohol and preserved railways, I distinctly recall the great pleasure in being served a pint on the Festiniog train to Blaenau years ago. On the big railway, alcohol has always had the right effect on me - enhancing the experience there, too. Dinner over Shap while enjoying the sunset en route Glasgow, a couple of beers on the up Manchester Pullman, even a whisky-and-American between Sutton and Dorking in the lovely varnished surroundings of S69000 - the buffet car of 4-BEP 7001 - after early turn. And drinking champoo as you leave Paris or Brussels on Eurostar is pretty special, too. I will not dwell upon the implausible amount of alcohol consumed by BR employees on the 4-GRI farewell tour in February 1971 - the genuine gricers on the train were completely baffled by these chaps (and chapesses) drinking both Griddle-cars dry!

[James]

On the big railway, alcohol has always had the right effect on me

Off duty I presume!

I will not dwell upon the implausible amount of alcohol consumed by BR employees on the 4-GRI farewell tour in February 1971

SOunds like a group of trainee signallers round Watford one night!

[Oldddudders]

Generally so, at least in the days when I had operational responsibilities. One of the odd things about the industry decades ago was that middle-turn clerical and managerial staff had unpaid lunch-breaks, while most operations staff were entitled (yes, of course signalmen lost out) to eat within their paid shift period. As long as the clerk or manager was in a fit condition after lunch, how and where they had spent that time was their business. That changed in about 1991, I think.

 

Yes, courses were a great place to spend a drunken evening. I had a 5-week event at Watford (The Grove) in 1979, and on the last night we had a boat-trip to Rickmansworth and back, with a pub there and a bar at the college. I still recall the Principal's face as someone had put a record on the hi-fi - Ivor Biggun's immortal ditty "I'm a Wan*er"!

[James]

I've heard all sorts of stories which I won't share publically about how some things used to be!

[EddieB]

When I was doing my field mapping course in 1979, based in Talsarnau, Gwynnedd was "dry" on Sundays.  However the Ffesteringnog had dispensation to serve alcohol on their trains on Sundays.  The result was that the last trains of the day became virtually a travelling pub for the local populace (the tourists having left by then).

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with preserved railways selling alcohol (and I speak as someone who takes their young children to such lines), providing consumption isn't excessive.  Perhaps a premium ale at a premium price, to encourage moderation.  (But I'm reminded of the Krøderbanen - whose end of season evening special is largely aimed at the railway's volunteers and local populace - and they seem to shift copious quantities of beer at well above the already over-expensive Norwegian prices).

[pete_mcfarlane]

The only problem with drunkeness I've ever seen on preserved railways have been at diesel galas. A small section of the punters seem to think that waving their arms out of the windows whilst breathing in fumes from a clapped out class 37 and drinking themeselves stupid is a fun way to spend an afternoon.

 

Possibly not a good thing for Joe Public and his kids to see (plus the clapped out class 37 would probably put them off as well).

 

But selling people a bottle ot two of real ale is completely different from this. If nothing else it will provide some extra income for the railway.

[James]

 

The only problem with drunkeness I've ever seen on preserved railways have been at diesel galas.

Such events do seem to attract the less evolved enthusiasts.

 

But selling people a bottle ot two of real ale is completely different from this. If nothing else it will provide some extra income for the railway.

 

I understand the income side - just not soemthing that's ever on my mind when visiting places. Plus we have to drive everywhere from where we live, so drinking during the day just isn't an option.