Dapol class 86

[ThaneofFife]

With regard to the Mark 3s, we hope that they will too, although we are more concerned with Farish also getting the 47/7s and DBSOs out around the same time!

 

Our BR Blue Class 86s have now been available for some 3 years, and we still have around 50 left out of a production run of 240. Considering we did 2 different numbers, and many customers then purchased 1 of each number, we too are very disappointed at the length of time it is taking to sell these locos through.

 

After early plans to do further examples, we now have no intention of producing more BR Blue 86s in the future.

 

You must remember that we are in business to make money, not spend money to fill up our shelves with unsaleable stock.

 

Mike, C&M

 

presumably these have to be ordered over the phone?  ive emailed my order twice and heard nowt unless you have computer problems at your end and you havent been picking up orders via email?

 

heres hoping unless they are now sold out. 

[Chris Higgs]

Well, I would like to know IF electrics don't sell, with facts, not hypothesis based on retail pricing.  Just because some places are discounting doesn't mean they are slow sellers, could be any one of a number of reasons for discounts.  Fact is no-one but the manufacturers know if electrics sell or not - and I doubt they will volunteer commercially sensitive information.  So as far as I'm concerned it's all speculation, sometimes delivered in a disappointing, slightly sneering way as justification that some wierd one-off freak diesel or obscure steamer is somehow "more deserving" of investment and production slots.

 

You cannot really tell if they sell well. What you can tell is if supply exceeds demand. I have picked up a number of Class 86s on ebay for 40 pounds or thereabout, which is a long way below the retail price. Which I would think is pretty much proof there are more about than people who want to buy them.

 

Chris

[frobisher]

Chris Higgs, on 28 Aug 2013 - 14:00, said:

You cannot really tell if they sell well. What you can tell is if supply exceeds demand. I have picked up a number of Class 86s on ebay for 40 pounds or thereabout, which is a long way below the retail price. Which I would think is pretty much proof there are more about than people who want to buy them.

Not quite the same thing. Were those second hand or retailer stock being liquidated? If the former, then it doesn't really mean much, beyond there are people selling theirs on. If the latter, then you can infer over stocking. Probably more indicative is that Dapol still carry stock of most of the releases in their online store.

[Dr Al]

Not quite the same thing. Were those second hand or retailer stock being liquidated? If the former, then it doesn't really mean much, beyond there are people selling theirs on. If the latter, then you can infer over stocking. Probably more indicative is that Dapol still carry stock of most of the releases in their online store.

 

If they were auctions (and some were, as below) then the market will dictate the ultimate price surely? They sold for what the market thought they were worth at that point in time.....

 

I bought one for £35 not that long ago - a steal at that price, though it will be repainted.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Etched Pixels]

Ebay is not an auction (and in the real world auctions don't determine market price either, only in beginner level economics fantasy land).

 

Alan

[frobisher]

If they were auctions (and some were, as below) then the market will dictate the ultimate price surely? They sold for what the market thought they were worth at that point in time.....

Er, not really that relevant to the point being made though.

 

edit: Oh and a casual search of ebay shows Dapol 86s at around the expected retail prices only, and from retailers in the main so I suspect your £40 jobs are second hand ones.

 

Doesn't really prove much mind.

Edited August 28, 2013 by frobisher

[298]

You cannot really tell if they sell well. What you can tell is if supply exceeds demand. I have picked up a number of Class 86s on ebay for 40 pounds or thereabout, which is a long way below the retail price. Which I would think is pretty much proof there are more about than people who want to buy them.

 

Chris

 

If demand is less than the minimum required to make a viable production run, then the number supplied will be precisely zilch...! 

 

I think it'still a shame the model hasn't been a popular seller, it is certainly a lot better than the current 4mm scale effort and in this scale you can get away with just modelling the masts.

[frobisher]

298, on 29 Aug 2013 - 15:25, said:

I think it'still a shame the model hasn't been a popular seller, it is certainly a lot better than the current 4mm scale effort and in this scale you can get away with just modelling the masts.

Yup. Dapol's not far off covering the whole lifespan of the class either. If they produced the front variant for a non-plated headcode box they'd have the flexicoil refitted ones completely covered I think and probably just doing new bogie tooling for the non refitted ones might suffice as the scar for the flexicoil suspension on the bodywork isn't too noticeable in the scale (but would be easily sanded down by those really offended by it). Unless of course there's a slide in the existing tooling to cover this eventuality..?

[Dr Al]

Er, not really that relevant to the point being made though.

 

edit: Oh and a casual search of ebay shows Dapol 86s at around the expected retail prices only, and from retailers in the main so I suspect your £40 jobs are second hand ones.

 

Doesn't really prove much mind.

 

 

I disagree - it provides some insight. Plenty other models are selling *above* their retail price secondhand on ebay - e.g. the Dapol panniers, showing the demand for them. The 86s generally are not, even the limited edition blue one, which I've picked up for 30% below retail.

 

That combined with many retailers discounting heavily (CMC recently, Model rail direct recently) - I think that says a lot...

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Roy L S]

I think the Dapol 86 is a fine model, but I understood electrics have always been notoriously poor sellers.

 

Indeed I am happy to be corrected but I thought I read somwehere (possibly even on this forum) that Dave Jones of Dapol had said their 86 took a fair old time to "wash it's face" from their perspective. If my recollection is correct I would have thought they would be reluctant to look at other similar overhead electric projects or even re-runs of the 86 while other more lucrative ones were available..

 

I agree with Alan, While sale prices achieved on ebay may not be the only measure they are generally a fairly good barometer of how much demand is out there. Couple this to the incredibly low prices they are now selling for (traders appear to be giving up pretty much all of their margin just to shift such "dead stock") and it doesn't paint an especially vibrant picture for this particular model.

 

If even a limited run of the BR blue ones will not shift (I believe this is now the second or third most popular era after steam/diesel transition era) that in itself surely adds more weight to the concluion?

 

Roy

[298]

It would take a brave manufacturer to percievably send good money after bad, but you could argue that the release of other AC electrics would add to the bigger picture and might be more tempting to modellers wishing to model an overhead-orientated layout. There are certainly quite a few areas/eras that could be represented using what is commercially available, but I don't rate the Farish 90 that highly and the 81-85 series aren't represented at all despite having a better type of pantograph to allow running under real wires (not that you need wires in N gauge).

[Multiple identity account 2]

It would take a brave manufacturer to percievably send good money after bad, but you could argue that the release of other AC electrics would add to the bigger picture and might be more tempting to modellers wishing to model an overhead-orientated layout. 

I would certainly think that if there were a number of AC models to high standards people will buy them. At the moment almost all models need a lot of attention.

[BECMAYE]

I would love to model 1960's electrics but there is nothing. Dapol will probably not release an 86 in 60's livery and I was hoping that Farish would release their 85 in N Gauge this year, may be they will next year. One problem causing the low sales is that if you wanted to create a layout with electrics you need more than one class to do so. The Farish 87,90 and 91 are not up to current standards (detail, dcc, lights etc) so all you have is a decent 86. With the liveries available you can only model the late 1970's onwards. There are no overhead wire EMU's for the period 1960-1990's either.

The same argument goes for Southern EMU's. In N gauge there is only the CEP and the Arnold Brighton Belle next year. You can't satisfactorily create a Southern Electrics layout with only these 2 models. In OO it is now easier as there are at least 6 types of EMU available EPB,CEP,VEP,Thumper, Brighton Belle and MLV.

[Roy L S]

1960s steam/diesel transition is the most popular era by quite some margin so it is a fair and interesting point that this era has no AC electric models whatsoever (Apart from that old Lima thing!). There would seem to be a sound logic in producing a suitable model for this era and maybe Bachmann will see this and put their 00 85 through the "shrink ray"?

 

As it is, all the AC electric attention (such as it is) appears focussed on more recent times. Is this based on a strategy supported by sound Market research? Sales of the Dapol 86 suggest not entirely, but I do not know how popular the Bachmann Desiro has proved to be?.

 

As to the Southern Region Electric Market, is it only me who thinks that as an entry model Hornby may have been better off starting with a 2Bil,in N given that the overwhelming majority of British N modellers are UK based (and I would suggest more likely to buy one or more) or does their homework really tell them that there is a bigger overall Market for a 1:148 Brighton Belle internationally?

 

Reality is that it is Manufacturers will decide and if a specific product group is said to have demand that does not translate into sales I would think that they would learn from it and not try again.

 

But then I guess we all have our own perceptions of "gaps" in the Market and what will "sell". My era of modelling is not AC electrics but BR Eastern Steam/Diesel transition, Ironically Here there are some similar considearations. While we have had a number of excellent (ex) LNER "State of the Art" steam models delivered recently and the J39 apparently now "on the boat", apart from the old clunky Farish J94 there is not a single LNER derived tank loco available RTR. Tank locos are surely a "must" on most pre-1968 layouts so this seems very odd..Every other "Big four" company is better represented!.

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

 

Regards

 

roy

[298]

The good (or bad) thig about the Brighton Belle is it is one of those impulse buys that seem to appeal once available, regardless of where they appear in wish list poles or production costs, such as the Blue Pullman. Unfortunately I can't think of many overhead electrics that tick the same boxes, except perhaps the 89....

[frobisher]

One problem causing the low sales is that if you wanted to create a layout with electrics you need more than one class to do so. The Farish 87,90 and 91 are not up to current standards (detail, dcc, lights etc) so all you have is a decent 86. With the liveries available you can only model the late 1970's onwards. There are no overhead wire EMU's for the period 1960-1990's either.

Well there's a whole can of worms in any case. Which prototype would you select? Something London end, something Glasgow end, something from somewhere in the rather large middle? Almost any one choice of prototype won't work for most people interested in AC electrics. Whatever prototype a manufacturer went for would be "brave" for that time period.

 

The same argument goes for Southern EMU's. In N gauge there is only the CEP and the Arnold Brighton Belle next year. You can't satisfactorily create a Southern Electrics layout with only these 2 models. In OO it is now easier as there are at least 6 types of EMU available EPB,CEP,VEP,Thumper, Brighton Belle and MLV.

It's only marginally easier in 00 (you've missed out the 2BIL and the Thumper isn't an EMU...). We "only" have the BR design 2EPB, the CEP is not refurbished whereupon they became wider used. The MLV is a very narrow usage unit as is the 5BEL. There's a whole slew of SR/SR Legacy stock missing as well particular mixes of which give you the essential character for parts of the 3rd rail network up to the 70's. The 4CIG is probably the single biggest missing piece though.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

I think that members of this forum are not necessarily *that* representative of the market as a whole.  Of the modellers I actually know, there are many who do not use the internet a lot except to go shopping for new models, and there are far more than we might think who just run trains they like - happily mixing Japanese Shinkansen sets with, say, a Flying Scotsman and Mk1 coaches.

 

I suspect Hornby's feeling is that the 5-BEL - with its Pullman glamour - will appeal to that market (and the "pure" collecting market) far more than a humdrum 2-BIL.

 

I also think that those who want more AC electrics will have a long wait if they refuse to buy anything until everything they need is available. 

 

On our club layout we run OHLE and have a Class 90 on the Pretendolino, Class 86s in Freightliner, EWS and Network Rail livery, Class 92 and Farish Desiros.  The 90s are a little long in the tooth (but good detailing packs are or have been available from PH Designs and TPM) and we are missing Class 390s and Class 323s but we just have to make do. 

 

At some point I am going to try to convince a fellow club member who's rather handy with CAD to produce a 323 bodyshell... and we may have to get one of David BTMH Trains' Pendolinos too... so there are options!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Jack]

I think that members of this forum are not necessarily *that* representative of the market as a whole.

 

I brought a NSE 86 coz it was cheap and it looks pretty ...

[BECMAYE]

Well there's a whole can of worms in any case. Which prototype would you select? Something London end, something Glasgow end, something from somewhere in the rather large middle? Almost any one choice of prototype won't work for most people interested in AC electrics. Whatever prototype a manufacturer went for would be "brave" for that time period.

 

 

It's only marginally easier in 00 (you've missed out the 2BIL and the Thumper isn't an EMU...). We "only" have the BR design 2EPB, the CEP is not refurbished whereupon they became wider used. The MLV is a very narrow usage unit as is the 5BEL. There's a whole slew of SR/SR Legacy stock missing as well particular mixes of which give you the essential character for parts of the 3rd rail network up to the 70's. The 4CIG is probably the single biggest missing piece though.

I agree, the right choice of emu is almost impossible and there wouldn't be enough demand in N gauge whatever was picked.(probably not enough demand in OO either)

 

Sorry for my mistake about the Thumper. I used to spot at London Bridge and saw them there along with 2BIL, EPB, CEP, VEP but not the MLV and the BELLE had gone by then but you could model a 1960's layout with all these classes but not 1980's or 90's. 4CIG would be great but I agree there are limitations with the location and time zone for maximum usage of these models.

[grahame]

As to the Southern Region Electric Market, is it only me who thinks that as an entry model Hornby may have been better off starting with a 2Bil,in N given that the overwhelming majority of British N modellers are UK based (and I would suggest more likely to buy one or more) or does their homework really tell them that there is a bigger overall Market for a 1:148 Brighton Belle internationally?

My understanding is that the 5-BEL is an Arnold model/development and not Hornby's N gauge/SR electric market entry model. In fact talking to Simon Kohler the Arnold decision was a bit of a surprise to Hornby, although they've come to terms with it now. I also get the impression that Arnold tend to specialise in prestige trains so a 5-BEL would fit with their plans rather well and certainly better than a suburban 2BIL.

 

G.

[Matabiau]

With the electrification of the western region main line and the future HS2 construction there is going to be less and less choice in diesel traction for those who model contemporary british railways. Already all new flagship trains are electric (Eurostar, class 390, class 395, etc..) and with the withdrawel of the high speed train all express passenger trains will be electric. In general, only the freight sector and the rural branchlines will remain diesel powered in 15 years time. Contemporary modelers will have to get used to electric trains on their layouts even if they don't go as far as installing overhead wires. The model manufacturers will be short for choice if they don't want to produce models of electric trains! The only unknown is at what point the wider modeling community makes the change and as such whether the model makers will time it right.

[frobisher]

Mind you, it won't help the historical AC modeller per se though will it, as the amount of overlap back to BR days is diminishing.<br /><br />Funnily enough, the three flagship trains mentioned have already been modelled in 00, and I'd put a wager on the 395 appearing in N from Arnold if the 5BEL does well enough for them (the 390 as well). Eurostar I don't think we'll ever see in UK N gauge though so we'll have to make do with the Kato one.

[Matabiau]

I'm sure once the flood gates are open and AC electrics become common fodder in the modeling world (OO and N) manufacturers will be itching to produce models of "heritage" locos.

[aghodgett]

If demand is less than the minimum required to make a viable production run, then the number supplied will be precisely zilch...! 

 

I think it'still a shame the model hasn't been a popular seller, it is certainly a lot better than the current 4mm scale effort and in this scale you can get away with just modelling the masts.

I think Dapol produced 15 different variants of the 86, say even 250 of each one is a lot for the N Gauge Market, around 3,750. It's hard to tell whether there were too many produced as we don't know how may sold in say the first 3 months. My main worry is that it probably means no Pendolino and no class 92, which is a real shame. I also think lack of joined up thinking could be a problem in that more catenary wasn't made. The existing model is very good and difficult to break  it should have been followed up by other variants of catenary. I don't know much about moulds, but I would have thought one mould could have made quite a few different catenary mast variants at the same time.

[njee20]

Going in circles on this now, but yes I certainly think Dapol were perhaps the masters of their own destiny to an extent with all the aforementioned issues around releasing locos without promised stock/catenary, mis-matched stock and so on.