What shade of red was used by the GWR on its broad gauge freight wagons ?

[brian777999]

What shade of red was used by the GWR on its broad gauge freight wagons ? Did this colour extend to the sole bars and axle boxes as well ?

 

Does the Brunel broad gauge have its own section ? I cannot find it ?

 

Does anybody have any photos of  broad gauge layouts ?

[BG John]

http://www.broadgauge.org.uk/modelling/models_intro.html

 

Not the most prototypical of BG layouts, but here's my first effort

 

 

 

The next layout wasn't finished when I got rid of it, and the latest one is still work in progress.

 

I'll let someone else answer your question about colour!

 

[Ian Smith]

Brian,

 

The exact shade of GWR Red for wagons (or should that be waggons?) is I think a bit of a disputed topic.  If you look under the "Modelling / Parts 7mm Scale" from the BGS website (link above) there are many images of completed items of stock shown in what I believe are the various builders interpretation of GWR Red (there are a couple in the "Parts 4mm Scale" too).

 

The problem really is that no one really knows what the exact shade was.  Personally I would suggest looking at the images and select a shade that you like (and can replicate) and going with that.  (That is what I have done for my 2mm stock c.1905/6 when red wagons would still have been about).

 

Not particularly helpful I know.

 

Ian

[Ian Smith]

PS (I don't seem to be able to edit my original post)

 

I think that the general concensus of opinion is that the whole of the wagon above and below the solebars was the same shade of red.

[asmay2002]

I can't say for the GWR specifcally but it was usual practice to paint wooden solebars the same colour as the wooden parts of the rest of the wagon on most railways. 

[Miss Prism]

http://gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html

[brian777999]

Considering that nobody really knows for certain, I am thinking that perhaps the Phoenix Precision Paints Indian Red which is intended for the loco frames might be close to the wagon red.

[buffalo]

Aha, it's can of worms time again Perhaps some have not noticed the words "broad gauge" in Brian's question:

What shade of red was used by the GWR on its broad gauge freight wagons ? Did this colour extend to the sole bars and axle boxes as well ?

The second question is relatively easy, the answer is almost definitely yes. The GWR practice of painting the entire wagon, including ironwork, in the same colour appears to have a long history. The only exception that I am aware of is bogie vehicles where some early photos suggest the bogies were in a  darker colour, presumably black. However, the answer to the first question is much less easy. Usually the question asked is when did they change from red to grey and the various arguments on that are summarised well on the gwr.org page to which Miss P provided a link. Unfortunately, the very few contemporary sources that mention red waggons all date to 1892 or later, i.e. after the end of the broad gauge. Indeed, for much of the broad gauge era, it appears that many waggons were painted brown -- Sheppard and Lewis in GWW refer to an 1852 contract specifying brown all over. See also BG John's layout photos in post #2. They also note that coloured versions of Bourne's 1846 lithographs show a brown colour "...although the shade depicted is paler and more red than the chocolate familiar from twentieth century 'brown vehicles'."
 
There are no further sources until the Western Morning News report of May 1892 describing "...long trains of trucks arrived [in] their new red paint..." (as quoted by Sheppard and Lewis in GWW). Now, note the date and the word "new". These were surely new standard gauge waggons arriving at Plymouth to replace the previous broad gauge vehicles that had been taken away to the Swindon dump during the previous couple of weeks. So, is there really any evidence that red waggons ran on the broad gauge? Perhaps there is. Amongst the many photos of the broad gauge dump at Swindon are several showing waggons of two, perhaps three, different colours. The vans and tilt waggons appear to be mostly in darker colours, presumably brown, though perhaps there might be dark reds amongst them. The opens are a range of colours, some quite dark, though most could be interpreted as faded reds or greys. The argument is tenuous though and the simple answer is we don't really know.
 
What colour was the red used on the standard gauge, if not on the broad gauge. Purely speculation, but I very much doubt it was a haematite based pigment such as indian red. I reckon it was far more likely to be common or garden red lead, the same stuff as was widely used as an inexpensive red paint from roman times or earlier and as a rustproof primer until quite recently. Lead based paints have a long history of use on wooden and iron waggons because they were relatively cheap and were effective preservatives.
 
Nick (who has painted a BG tilt wagon in red...)

[wagonman]

While this particular worm can is open, what is the collective view on NPCS such as Tadpole open fish trucks. They were repainted brown when transferred from goods stock to carriage stock but were they grey previously (as I always believed) or red? Were they ever red and if so when were they repainted grey?

[buffalo]

Richard, I assume they were grey from 1904-13, or until repainted. There are photos of them with the large GW lettering so presumably grey but I don't recall seeing any earlier photos that might be taken as red, other than perhaps some of the BG versions in the Swindon dump photos.

 

btw I've just noticed another inconsistency in GWW. Table 6.2 on p122 claims red with white roofs for 1870s to 1894 when the G.W.R lettering was on the left side of the body and for 1894-1904 when it was on the right. As far as I can see there is nothing in the text to confirm this early date for the red colour.

 

Nick

[BG John]

See also BG John's layout photos in post #2.

I wouldn't use my models as a guide to the prototype! I used whatever was the current thinking at the time I painted them.

[brian777999]

Aha, it's can of worms time again Perhaps some have not noticed the words "broad gauge" in Brian's question:

 

What colour was the red used on the standard gauge, if not on the broad gauge. Purely speculation, but I very much doubt it was a haematite based pigment such as indian red. I reckon it was far more likely to be common or garden red lead, the same stuff as was widely used as an inexpensive red paint from roman times or earlier and as a rustproof primer until quite recently. Lead based paints have a long history of use on wooden and iron waggons because they were relatively cheap and were effective preservatives.

 

 

 

So if it was red then perhaps the LMS/ BR bauxite colour might be close ?

 

And if it was brown then the GWR wagon brown would probably suffice ?

 

I did not expect the ''red or brown'' question to arise. Most of the wagons on the BGS website are painted in shades of red !

[wagonman]

Richard, I assume they were grey from 1904-13, or until repainted. There are photos of them with the large GW lettering so presumably grey but I don't recall seeing any earlier photos that might be taken as red, other than perhaps some of the BG versions in the Swindon dump photos.

 

btw I've just noticed another inconsistency in GWW. Table 6.2 on p122 claims red with white roofs for 1870s to 1894 when the G.W.R lettering was on the left side of the body and for 1894-1904 when it was on the right. As far as I can see there is nothing in the text to confirm this early date for the red colour.

 

Nick

 

Yes I'd assumed grey at least from 1904 - it was the period before that puzzled me. Presumably red? All I know is that I seem to be facing a growing pile of repaints... Perhaps I'll take a punt and presume grey came in with the RHS G.W.R lettering   :-)

 

 

 

Richard

[MarkAustin]

Some years ago, I remember the BG Society inspectimng a period model of a GWR wagon in red livery and the colour was described as Rizla (the cigarette paper) red.

[BlackRat]

Red lead (or primer red) always looks about right (to me).

 

Pal models BG (in S!!) and thats what he uses and it looks nicely subtle wiith the green etc.

 

Anything is pure guesswork as it was so long ago, its impossible to say with any certainty.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Virgin Red !

 

XF